Topic: aud+sbd mixing

[firmdragon]

i've been doing this kind of mixing for a while now by just lining up the two sources and increasing the volume on one until it sounds right.  it sounds good, but it still sort of leaves me wondering whether or not i could be doing more.  the main issue i have is normally if i want to hear each instrument clearly i'll sometimes end up with a mix that sounds little more like an audience recording and less like a sbd, essentially losing some of the crispness and clearness of the sbd.

to sum up, any tips on the mixing process beyond lining up and adjusting volumes until they sound good?

[boojum]

In Samplitude, and others I am sure, you can just bring in the two separate files, one above the other in the editor, expand the image and then align along a peak in the sound.  The peak makes it easier, as does expanding the graphic, to do this.  I assume you are doing this, however.  The SBD should have the clear vocal track you want to lay down with the AUD recording.  I would just bring up the SBD until I have the vocals where I want them.  And, in mixing the golden rules is "less is more."  You never finish mixing the tracks.  You just give up.  I think it is impossible to get them where we want them.  But it is fun to try.   

[John Kary]

any tips on the mixing process beyond lining up and adjusting volumes until they sound good?

It's really hard to give suggestions without hearing the sources, because the quality differs greatly across shows/venues.  The audience mics usually fill-out the soundboard mix because they capture the low-end a lot better than the soundboard will.

As far as tips, try adding a bit of room reverb as an insert to the sbd track to give it a bit more spread and take away some of the up-frontness of the center vocals.
Try to get the thud of the kick-drum to peak its highest at 62hz.  You can use an EQ or multiband compressor to shape the low-end sound.

Experiment with an EQ on each track.  I often find that a mic source blends a lot better if you use a slight (~-3db) shelf above 2k.  Be careful in Audacity, though.  The EQ built into it probably isn't all that great, so try not to over-tweak.  But try getting familiar with the sound spectrum by taking all the frequencies all the way down, then raising each one up individually to hear what that frequency band sounds like.  Then bring them back up to 0 and think of how you might change that sound, and then dial it in on the EQ.  It will take a good EQ, and lots of practice.

[Roving Sign]

Pay attention to your peak meters when you playback your mix...watch out for overs.

Combining sources can cause drastic gain increases.

If I have two well recorded 16 bit sets - I always have to bump them both back 3db - just to start

...seems more often than not I end up running the AUD source another 3db behind that...

[JWard]

Depends on how your sources sound.  I listen to both of them individually before I mix, so as to know what I am mixing.  My personal preference generally lends to more AUD than SBD in the mix, especially if the AUD tracks sound good, but again that depends on how they sound (and your personal preference...or the preferences of who you are mixing for).  Often you will have some phase issues in the mix as well, which you can use to your advantage.  You can also shift the AUD or SBD tracks by just a few msec's to manipulate the sound of the mix.  Sometimes it is better if they are not perfectly in alignment, sometimes not. 

[John Kary]

Often you will have some phase issues in the mix as well, which you can use to your advantage.  You can also shift the AUD or SBD tracks by just a few msec's to manipulate the sound of the mix.  Sometimes it is better if they are not perfectly in alignment, sometimes not. 

Phase issues between sources is something I haven't been able to find a lot of info on.  How can you tell if two sources are in-phase just by looking at them?  Is it when they peak and trough at the exact same rate?

How can you match the phase of two different stereo sources like a mic and sbd feed?

[PH]

Often you will have some phase issues in the mix as well, which you can use to your advantage.  You can also shift the AUD or SBD tracks by just a few msec's to manipulate the sound of the mix.  Sometimes it is better if they are not perfectly in alignment, sometimes not. 

Phase issues between sources is something I haven't been able to find a lot of info on.  How can you tell if two sources are in-phase just by looking at them?  Is it when they peak and trough at the exact same rate?

How can you match the phase of two different stereo sources like a mic and sbd feed?

Lots of good info folks.......
One thing I find helpful is listening in mono, and this is the best way to determine phase issues. Phased instruments or sources can cancel each other out and/or change the way they fit within the mix.
If you find things sounded significantly different in mono, then you likely have a phase issue in one or more of the tracks/sources.

Something else that can come up is that many sound engineers will play with the phase in their live mix to get certain things to stand out. This can be on their house/2-mix or on individual tracks. If you are also recording that 2-mix, you can end up with even wilder phase issues from recording a phasey mix. There is no simple solution, you must use your eyes and ears to determine if a source is correctly in phase and if it needs to be corrected. You can actually see if a source(s) is out of phase. If you zoom all the way in to the waveform....the peaks and valleys will correlate between the sources if it's in phase, and will be opposite of each other if they are out of phase. Sometimes just nudging the waveform one way or another will correct the issue. Studio Engineers do this all the time, especially with drums.

I personally use Nuendo with all sorts of plugins, so all of my recordings usually find their way in there and I use a various set of tools to improve sound on two and four tracks live recordings.
Some of my favorites are PSP Vintage Warmer and Antares Tube to fatten things up, Various Waves plugs for things like compression and eq. I also like the various stereo expander plugs, which are really helpful to expand the stereo field of a flat or narrow recording. Once I get all the edits, compression, and eq they way it sounds best to me, then I'll throw on the Waves Multi-L3 plug to polish and glue the mix and resample/dither down to 16/44. I like the warm/cozy setting on the L3, but you have to experiment with settings as not all of them will compliment your mixes.
I've been playing around with various limiters lately and just haven't been as happy with any of the others as I have been with the L3.

Good luck and Cheers, Phil

[momule]

Phil just wait till you get to play with the waves L3-16.  You talk about a all in one polisher. 
I too am a big fan of both the PSP vintage warmer but it can muddy up a mix if used too much.
For limiters might I suggest checking out the Kjaerhus MPL-1 Pro limiter.  Its very nice IMO best $100 you can spend on plugins.

I also use the AKAI professional quad compressor quite a bit.  along with the TC works limiter.

 

[JWard]

How can you match the phase of two different stereo sources like a mic and sbd feed?

As stated above, use your eyes and ears.  Generally, you can't get everything in phase, although if your mics are farther away you will be closer (to being in phase).  On listening, pay attention to the mix as you add in a set of tracks.  If you notice, for example, that the guitar starts to stand out but the bass seems to disappear....that's a phase issue.  The guitar is in phase but the bass is not.  You may be able to find this visually, but often that is difficult because multiple intruments are playing at once and the phase issue gets lost in the waveform.  You can work to get a good mix with the balance between the tracks you are mixing, or you can work with the time-alignment.  If you use any onstage mics or if you use multiple mics your phase issues will be more pronounced.  You can use this to your advantage, to balance the mix of instruments.  I always align the tracks visually then go from there.  Often I will copy a recorded track to a new track in the Dig Performer (double it up) and shift one of the two to a slightly different alignment, then toggle back and forth as I am listening. 

[PH]

How can you match the phase of two different stereo sources like a mic and sbd feed?

As stated above, use your eyes and ears.  Generally, you can't get everything in phase, although if your mics are farther away you will be closer (to being in phase).  On listening, pay attention to the mix as you add in a set of tracks.  If you notice, for example, that the guitar starts to stand out but the bass seems to disappear....that's a phase issue.  The guitar is in phase but the bass is not.  You may be able to find this visually, but often that is difficult because multiple intruments are playing at once and the phase issue gets lost in the waveform.  You can work to get a good mix with the balance between the tracks you are mixing, or you can work with the time-alignment.  If you use any onstage mics or if you use multiple mics your phase issues will be more pronounced.  You can use this to your advantage, to balance the mix of instruments.  I always align the tracks visually then go from there.  Often I will copy a recorded track to a new track in the Dig Performer (double it up) and shift one of the two to a slightly different alignment, then toggle back and forth as I am listening. 

Continuing this thought.......on the subject of 4 track aud/sbd recording. I have found that the best way to avoid timing and phase issues is to use the stage snake and house board and take the signals direct from the board. This is not always possible of course, but it drasticly reduces the error factor. A cool engineer and basic knowledge of a SBD is key here.
For those unfamiliar with what I'm talking about......Plug your mics into the snake onstage and set them up in whatever pattern that will suit the performance best, have the engineer apply phantom and gain and either take the direct out from those channels or have the engineer send those channels to a group/send/sub/matrix/alt...whatever he has available. Take that feed and the 2-mix house feed and record to 4 track. All signals should be correctly aligned since the gear delay will be essentially the same for both feeds. This will not necessarily improve the phase issues, but is usually less pronounced than recording the PA from a large distance. Alignment is not near as important as phase though, as the former can be easily corrected in post. Another common method of dealing with phased recordings is to try flipping the phase on individual tracks. There are no rules as to what it should sound like, it's your recording and so the goal should be to make it sound the best to you.

[John Kary]

Phil just wait till you get to play with the waves L3-16.  You talk about a all in one polisher. 
I too am a big fan of both the PSP vintage warmer but it can muddy up a mix if used too much.
For limiters might I suggest checking out the Kjaerhus MPL-1 Pro limiter.  Its very nice IMO best $100 you can spend on plugins.

Kjaerhus MPL-1 Pro has been on my master fader for about 2 years now.  It's about as transparent a limiter as I've heard, and I've played with quite a few of them out there.

Another vote for Vintage Warmer 1... I tried 2 and didn't find it as smooth.  I also like Waves RBass to really fill out the bass sound if it's thin.

I also suggest the IK T-Racks suite if you do a lot of rock mixing.  It's combo of EQ/Compressor/Limiter have a very warm distorted sound to them that really brings my rock mixes to life.  Haven't gotten a chance to try L3-16.

On the subject of plugins, I often throw a hall reverb on my soundboards to smooth out the vocals, since they're usually run dead-center in the mix.  Waves RVerb > Hall 1 works well, at a low Wet value.

[John Kary]

Plug your mics into the snake onstage and set them up in whatever pattern that will suit the performance best, have the engineer apply phantom and gain and either take the direct out from those channels or have the engineer send those channels to a group/send/sub/matrix/alt...whatever he has available.

I assume when you say run your mics into the snake that you're talking about on-stage mics, and not audience mics for recording the room, right?

[PH]

Plug your mics into the snake onstage and set them up in whatever pattern that will suit the performance best, have the engineer apply phantom and gain and either take the direct out from those channels or have the engineer send those channels to a group/send/sub/matrix/alt...whatever he has available.

I assume when you say run your mics into the snake that you're talking about on-stage mics, and not audience mics for recording the room, right?

Well, yes and no.
I usually use a pair Schoeps CCM5's in ORTF mode dead center on the lip of the stage. I record mainly bluegrass and acoustic stuff, so many times I will actually clamp them to one of the vocal stands about waist high. You can use any mics to plug into the snake, but you would be recording "onstage" as opposed to out in the audience recording the PA. The nice part is being able to record onstage and from the SBD at the same time, and the convenience of having it all back by the soundboard and out of harm's way to drunks.

[illconditioned]

I'm glad to see others adding a bit of reverb to the PA/SBD part.

I'm mixing a (usually mono) soundboard with audience mics.  I'm adding soundboard to do two things: 1. add detail to the vocals/guitars (lost in PA distortion), 2. bring the level of vocals up (sometimes lost in the room, or overpowered by being too close to the drums/guitar amps on stage).

My approach is to play the soundboard alone and add reverb and tweak until it *sounds like the aud*.  (Adjust "room size" and "decay" settings in the reverb plugin.  I'm using "naturalverb" in Wavelab.)  I also delay the soundboard track by approx. 10ms over the aud track.  Both these seem to reduce the artificial sound you get just throwing a "dry" soundboard track in there.

Comment/question:
Adding soundboard makes the whole mix a bit more "mono".  This is not bad, but it may make instruments appear to come from the center of the image, and be inconsistent with where they really are on stage.  The correct thing to do is to pan the different parts of the mix to match the place on stage, right?  I don't worry about this, but I could see where a multitrack recording would really benefit here.

By the way, I had just one fantastic soundboard recording.  There were four performers across the front of the stage and a drum in the back.  The soundman actually panned each performer in the mix.  When I listened, I thought I was listening to an audience recording!

  Richard

[PH]

I'm glad to see others adding a bit of reverb to the PA/SBD part.

I'm mixing a (usually mono) soundboard with audience mics.  I'm adding soundboard to do two things: 1. add detail to the vocals/guitars (lost in PA distortion), 2. bring the level of vocals up (sometimes lost in the room, or overpowered by being too close to the drums/guitar amps on stage).

My approach is to play the soundboard alone and add reverb and tweak until it *sounds like the aud*.  (Adjust "room size" and "decay" settings in the reverb plugin.  I'm using "naturalverb" in Wavelab.)  I also delay the soundboard track by approx. 10ms over the aud track.  Both these seem to reduce the artificial sound you get just throwing a "dry" soundboard track in there.

Comment/question:
Adding soundboard makes the whole mix a bit more "mono".  This is not bad, but it may make instruments appear to come from the center of the image, and be inconsistent with where they really are on stage.  The correct thing to do is to pan the different parts of the mix to match the place on stage, right?  I don't worry about this, but I could see where a multitrack recording would really benefit here.

By the way, I had just one fantastic soundboard recording.  There were four performers across the front of the stage and a drum in the back.  The soundman actually panned each performer in the mix.  When I listened, I thought I was listening to an audience recording!

  Richard

In mixing multi-track stuff, it doesn't really matter how you pan it. It's a matter of taste. In terms of stage setup, the logical thing would be recreate the way it was live in the mix. The reality is that isn't always the best mix. Usually instruments that occupy the same frequency area should be panned opposite. Drums are usually panned in stereo with the kick/snare center. Vocals and Bass are in the center, but many add verb or expanders to widen the stereo field and separate the voices.  Those are probably the only constants, everything else is up to you to make it fit within the mix.
When building a multi-mix, many will start with one of those two directions. Drumz/Bass and then layer on.....or Vocals first and build from there.

[John Kary]

I'm mixing a (usually mono) soundboard with audience mics.  I'm adding soundboard to do two things: 1. add detail to the vocals/guitars (lost in PA distortion), 2. bring the level of vocals up (sometimes lost in the room, or overpowered by being too close to the drums/guitar amps on stage).

Try separating the two channels of your SBD mixdown and panning them out evenly on both sides to a position that "feels right."  It will widen the stereo image of the recording.

A mono-sounding soundboard can happen in some cases where the house PA is indeed run in Mono, so the engineer doesn't pan anything.

[illconditioned]

I'm mixing a (usually mono) soundboard with audience mics.  I'm adding soundboard to do two things: 1. add detail to the vocals/guitars (lost in PA distortion), 2. bring the level of vocals up (sometimes lost in the room, or overpowered by being too close to the drums/guitar amps on stage).

Try separating the two channels of your SBD mixdown and panning them out evenly on both sides to a position that "feels right."  It will widen the stereo image of the recording.

A mono-sounding soundboard can happen in some cases where the house PA is indeed run in Mono, so the engineer doesn't pan anything.

Thanks, but most places I go to have a mono PA.  It is rare that I get a stereo mix of any kind, and even rarer that I get a good stereo mix.
Note that I'm talking really small clubs here.  Mostly they just have a "powered mixer" right in front of the stage, so what you get off the mics is a mix of onstage guitar and drums with voice, DI acoustic and maybe a mic on electric, lol.

  Richard