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Author Topic: Zoom F3 Part 2  (Read 13406 times)

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Offline Papaphunk

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2024, 10:48:21 AM »
First Recording w the new ZOOM F3 last night, and first of the new year. Came out pretty nice. Went with +4 gain on both channels, smaller acoustically nice listening room sat 25 people.

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Offline daspyknows

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2024, 11:31:23 AM »
First Recording w the new ZOOM F3 last night, and first of the new year. Came out pretty nice. Went with +4 gain on both channels, smaller acoustically nice listening room sat 25 people.

https://archive.org/details/BlueWaveRamblers.2024-01-12.AKGCK61.Flac24

The gain doesn't actually matter.  Its useful for monitoring channels or listening purposes as I understand it.  That said, I typically have it set to +4 or +8 so I can use for playback driving home.

Offline unidentified

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2024, 12:03:25 PM »
The gain visible on the recorder during the recording process is only for your viewing entertainment. Just normalize the volume in post.

Offline darby

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2024, 01:29:06 PM »
The gain visible on the recorder during the recording process is only for your viewing entertainment. Just normalize the volume in post.

NO... actually the view of the waveform IS what it will look like when opened in an editor
you can entertain yourself all you want thereafter
 

Offline grawk

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2024, 04:58:52 PM »
The gain visible on the recorder during the recording process is only for your viewing entertainment. Just normalize the volume in post.

NO... actually the view of the waveform IS what it will look like when opened in an editor
you can entertain yourself all you want thereafter
 

The point is it’s not gain.  Nothing is lost. When you fix it in post it’s fixed.
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Offline unidentified

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2024, 06:54:30 PM »
Like Grawk said. Adjusting the display of the waveform has nothing to do with adjusting the gain of the recorder.

Offline checht

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2024, 06:39:29 PM »
^
Going on 2 years of misunderstanding/disagreement.

F3 wins for easiest to use and hardest to understand recorder so far 😀.
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Offline darby

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2024, 07:35:46 PM »
Like Grawk said. Adjusting the display of the waveform has nothing to do with adjusting the gain of the recorder.

it most certainly does effect the signal being recorded... but you have the ability to alter it in post to your liking


^
Going on 2 years of misunderstanding/disagreement.

F3 wins for easiest to use and hardest to understand recorder so far 😀.

it's actually NO different from any other 32Bit Float recorder* including the SD MixPre-ii
they all have the ability to set the APPEARANCE of the waveform but also be able to adjust to your liking in post
the F3 is small, easy to power and operate and has decent preamps... it gets used frequently

*NOTE:
when I ran a Tascam X8 for several months,
I noticed instances while recording where I saw my peak indicator go off on the display
when opening those files, I NEVER saw any peaks... ???

Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2024, 10:09:11 PM »
Yes, people are getting confused again, but it's mostly Zoom's fault for writing false information in an important part of the F3 manual. I'm hoping this post can finally put the issue to bed, so stick with me here.

First we need to clarify our terms: Gain is the adjustment to the analog signal level pre-ADC. Record level adjusts the digital level being written to the file, after it's gone through ADC and anything else that might be in the signal chain. Some people are using these interchangeably and that's muddying the waters. With that out of the way...

Gain (analog preamp level) is not adjustable on the F3, nor is it on the other F-series recorders when they are set to 32FP format. (I'm not sure that the SD MixPre-II works the same way. They may still allow gain adjustment in this mode - I might ask over in that thread.)

All of the F-series still have the ability to adjust record level in this mode. It's not just an "appearance" thing; you are in fact changing the digital level being written to the file. The F6 and F8 manuals make this very clear, but the F3 manual is a hot mess when it comes to this point.

From the F3 manual:
Quote
NOTE
- The magnification rate can be set in 11 steps: ×1 , ×2, ×4, ×8, ×16, ×32, ×64, ×128, ×256, ×512 and ×1024.

- Be careful with the volume if you are monitoring the input sound with headphones, for example.

- Changing the magnification rate, even in the middle of recording, will not affect the recording level.

As several people have reported in this thread, the third point is false! The magnification level does adjust the recorded level. EDIT: Thanks to the test performed by @commongrounder, we now know that adjusting the magnification setting while recording is underway does not change the recorded level; only the monitored output level.

The second point actually reinforces the fact that you are changing the post-ADC level. Otherwise if it was only affecting a visual display, the level in your headphone output would not change without you specifically adjusting the headphone output level, and they wouldn't need to warn us about it.

We can confirm that "Waveform Magnification" is actually a "Record Level" control by looking at the block diagram at the end of the manual. We can probably assume that the engineering team was involved in this diagram and that they actually know how the unit works, unlike the people who wrote the above excerpt.

There's a symbol under Waveform Amplification (Wait, I thought it was supposed to be Magnification??) that looks like a diagonal arrow on top of a circle - this represents a variable output. Notice that it is directly in the signal path, and that symbol appears in other areas where we know for sure that signal levels are being adjusted (Line Out, Headphone Volume, Alert Tone). The Waveform Display is shown to be a tap off of the main signal path.

So what we find is that the description of how the F3 works is not how the block diagram says it works, and the two places use different terms for the same thing, and one of those terms is misleading. If it really did work the way the description said, then that variable output symbol would not be in the signal path but instead would be shown after a branch off at Waveform Display.


So, bottom line:
Gain is fixed.
Waveform Magnification is actually Amplification and is a digital level adjustment.
Manual is bad.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 11:45:43 AM by voltronic »
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #69 on: January 14, 2024, 11:44:48 PM »
^^extremely helpful

If I understand, the implication is "leave the levels alone when recording -- changing doesn't improve quality or signal-to-noise ratio, but it will screw up your recording (in post it would be difficult to exactly undo the changing-magnification-over-time caused by adjusting levels in the middle of a record)"
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Offline unidentified

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2024, 12:15:14 AM »
"Gain is fixed.
Waveform Magnification is actually Amplification and is a digital level adjustment.
Manual is bad."

Well said. Thanks for this clarification.

Offline roffels

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2024, 07:11:30 AM »
^^extremely helpful

If I understand, the implication is "leave the levels alone when recording -- changing doesn't improve quality or signal-to-noise ratio, but it will screw up your recording (in post it would be difficult to exactly undo the changing-magnification-over-time caused by adjusting levels in the middle of a record)"

I guess that's something to test - i have assumed that you can only change the levels before hitting record.

Offline voltronic

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2024, 07:17:02 AM »
^^extremely helpful

If I understand, the implication is "leave the levels alone when recording -- changing doesn't improve quality or signal-to-noise ratio, but it will screw up your recording (in post it would be difficult to exactly undo the changing-magnification-over-time caused by adjusting levels in the middle of a record)"

I guess that's something to test - i have assumed that you can only change the levels before hitting record.

I know for sure that changing Magnification before hitting record effects the record level. It may or may not lock the record level while recording is underway, which would make that line from the manual partially true at least. I don't own an F3 to test this; I just have used my friend's a few times.

Would someone please make a test recording of something with a constant level while you change Magnification?
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Offline commongrounder

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2024, 08:21:54 AM »
This morning I performed a test with my F3. Started with X64 magnification on a steady state sound through a stereo microphone. This gave a nice strong waveform on the display, and clear monitoring. I then started recording, and after a few moments raised the magnification on each channel to X512 magnification. This, of course, filled the the waveform display pretty solidly, and required that I reduce the monitoring level. A clear and easily heard level change. I then stopped the recording and played it back on the spot. The playback magnification/level *never* changed during the course of the recording and stayed at the original X64 setting. This tells me two things. One is the block diagram is oversimplified/inaccurate, and two, that single sentence #3: - Changing the magnification rate, even in the middle of recording, will not affect the recording level is very poorly worded. It should read: - Changing the magnification rate, once recording has started, will not affect the recording level. I totally understand the logic behind this. As SMsound wrote, it would be very difficult to track digital level changes in post with any precision, and the issue of only being able to change magnification on one channel at a time makes it impractical anyway. Best to do any level manipulation in post, exactly what 32-bit float is all about.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Zoom F3 Part 2
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2024, 09:17:03 AM »
I totally understand the logic behind this. As SMsound wrote, it would be very difficult to track digital level changes in post with any precision, and the issue of only being able to change magnification on one channel at a time makes it impractical anyway. Best to do any level manipulation in post, exactly what 32-bit float is all about.

Good test and totally agreed on all main conclusions.  Except one small nit- It would actually be quite easy for Zoom to implement tracking of digital level changes with precision if doing so were helpful.  They could simply insert a marker whenever record level is changed.  Unlike an analog gain change, afterward the marked digital level change would be relatively simple to correct because it's immediate and of a discrete value.

But that's all academic.  Its not how magnification level is implemented and would not be a good idea to do it that way anyway for the reasons noted.

/nit.  Thanks for the test!
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