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Author Topic: HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?  (Read 8878 times)

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Offline kindms

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #15 on: August 05, 2003, 05:19:44 PM »
I sent an e-mail to ESI (waveterminal cards etc) here  is the reply.

All of ESI products doesn't support any resembling of the digital input signal.
Waveterminal 192 series do bit accurate recording.
 
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Offline porphyry

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2003, 07:30:36 PM »
everyone's come up with some really helpful stuff.

thanks to everyone.

Offline dklein

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #17 on: August 06, 2003, 01:29:57 AM »
Hey - when you can get that bit perfect transfer for <$30, why debate (though it is a good debate)?

The Aopen card mentioned above, along with the Zoltrix Nightingale, the m-Audio DIO2448, Audio Excel MD-Mate and others, all use the same chip - Cmedia's 8738.  It is capable of bit perfect transfers when properly set up.  You can find more implementations here http://www.cmedia.com.tw/Buy/e-wheretobuy_spdif.htm

Make sure the board you're looking at has an optical daughterboard attachment (to attach your toslink cable) and does not use the LX variety of the 8738 (which doesn't support s/pdif in) http://www.cmedia.com.tw/product/doc8738.htm

BTW, the DAC in that chip isn't so good but if you're burning cds who cares?  It plays no role in the transfer - only in listening on your pc.

You can verify bit perfect transfers by doing it twice and paste inverting one over the other, looking for null.  EAC also has a wave compare feature that will let you know if any samples are off.

While we're bashing soundblaster stuff, it may be worth differentiating between reclocking and resampling.
Reclocking is done by virtually all consumer equipment - this just means accepting the data 'on the fly' vs. locking onto the source data clock.  The bit values would not be changing.  It may be possible to drop some if they aren't delivered in time, but this does not appear to be a problem I've run into.
Resampling is the evil one.  This involves changing the bit values (changing the sampling frequency forces you to change the bit values).

In the case of Soundblaster cards, they all resample to 48k because that's the 'internal standard' that the chipset works with.  So if you do your proposed transfer through a soundblaster you will go
44.1>resample to 48>resample to 44.1  :'( unnecessary!  The resample was designed more for speed than musicality.

Here's a good summary on the whole thing (but it is old and I think the issues of slave / master for a single soundcard setup are a thing of the past).  Bottom line - the author thought it was still better to digitally resample than go through another a>d step.   http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/pcmusician.htm

A clue that a card is resampling - you should not be able to adjust the volume of the s/pdif signal.  You may be able to adjust the pc volume, but when you look at your controls (mixer or whatever) you'll see sliders for the line-in, mic-in etc.  There should be no slider for s/pdif - if there is...you are resampling the data to change the voume.

Let me throw an alternate suggestion at you - you're about to buy a minidisc deck with digital output (used I'm guessing) and a soundcard.  That'll set you back almost as much as a Nomad Jukebox 3.  I can't tell you how much I love doing firewire transfers - a whole show in 3 minutes - in data format so you can forget about all this bit perfect nonsense.  And if you want to transfer your minidiscs and know somebody with a deck - just plug the optical out of the md into your Jukebox, record away and then bring it home for a firewire transfer.  And if you want to upgrade later, you're set.

If you want to mail me one of your minidiscs, I can do a bit perfect transfer and you can grab it via ftp, burn a disc, compare to your soundcard transfer and decide if you care.

p.s. just because we're anal doesn't mean we like to spend lots of money!

david
« Last Edit: August 06, 2003, 01:40:33 AM by dklein »
KM 184 > V2 > R4
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Offline porphyry

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #18 on: August 07, 2003, 05:02:58 AM »
nomad jukebox 3? doesn't that only record in MP3 and WMA? i definitely don't want to turn my precious tapes into MP3s!
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 05:07:18 AM by porphyry »

Offline porphyry

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2003, 05:16:36 AM »
david is the MD mate card you talk about the AV515M card listed on the chaintech website?

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #20 on: August 07, 2003, 08:03:43 AM »
nomad jukebox 3? doesn't that only record in MP3 and WMA? i definitely don't want to turn my precious tapes into MP3s!

Ahem.  :P  There's some basic info about JB3 in the archival section.  See the part titled Recording Formats:

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=14;action=display;threadid=5071
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Offline porphyry

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2003, 08:12:08 AM »
ok either i'm stupid or the creative website doesnt' say anything about the JB3 recording in WAV.

(please don't point it out if it turns out that i am stupid).

 ???

Offline dklein

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2003, 08:39:35 AM »
david is the MD mate card you talk about the AV515M card listed on the chaintech website?

I think the MD mate had the 4channel chip  http://www.directron.com/mdmate.html and the 515 has the 6 channel chip - the differences are irrelavent for our purposes.

As long as you get the daughter board that has the optical connectors, you're good (if you can find one - looks like they're sold out at directron)
http://www.directron.com/av515m.html

That Aopen card should fit the bill.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2003, 08:40:03 AM by dklein »
KM 184 > V2 > R4
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Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2003, 08:57:13 AM »
ok either i'm stupid or the creative website doesnt' say anything about the JB3 recording in WAV.

(please don't point it out if it turns out that i am stupid).

 ???

Heh.  I know you didn't ask for it, but really...you did.  :P  It's buried in the specs page:

http://www.nomadworld.com/products/jukebox3/specs.asp

There're plenty of things I miss or just don't know yet, too, so join the club!   8)
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Offline wbrisette

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2003, 02:49:02 PM »
While we're bashing soundblaster stuff, it may be worth differentiating between reclocking and resampling.
Reclocking is done by virtually all consumer equipment - this just means accepting the data 'on the fly' vs. locking onto the source data clock.  The bit values would not be changing.  It may be possible to drop some if they aren't delivered in time, but this does not appear to be a problem I've run into.
Resampling is the evil one.  This involves changing the bit values (changing the sampling frequency forces you to change the bit values).

Actually both are evil. The SP/DIF specification doesn't separate the clock from the data, thus when you have two clocks, you have two masters. I would argue that this isn't as common as you think. Most cards or software for the cards allows either the external device to be the master (and provide the clock), or the card to be the master. IF both the external device and the card provide a clock usually you'll get a static like sound every once in a while when the clocks are out of sync.

Anyhow, I did confuse the issue originally, so thanks for pointing that out! I don't have any clue how Soundblaster deals with the clock.

Wayne
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Offline dklein

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Re:HOW DO I CHOOSE A SOUNDCARD?
« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2003, 03:17:08 PM »
Most cards or software for the cards allows either the external device to be the master (and provide the clock), or the card to be the master.

Cool - good to know.  I've only played with cheap stuff that doesn't give you that option.
KM 184 > V2 > R4
older recording gear: UA-5  / emagic A62 / laptop / JB3 / CSB / AD20 / Sharp MT-90 / Sony MDS-JE510
Playback: Pioneer DV-578 > Lucid DA 9624 >many funny little british boxes > Linn Isobarik PMS

 

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