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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Belexes on October 26, 2007, 04:16:45 PM
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I've read on the board that the AT853's are best run with phantom power. Mine terminate to a mini-plug.
Is this something I could use? I notice it is on clearance at SP:
http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/AT8532
Or should I just stay with the Denecke unit that I have. Does it make a difference?
The Denecke is such a big unit to lug in for stealth reasons, I am thinking the AT8532 may be more low-pro?
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The mini-plug termination is a 2-wire configuration. This is not compatable with the product in your link. That product is intended for a mic that is terminated in a 3 wire (mini-xlr). You your mics would need to be converted to 3-wire and you would need 2 of those AT8532 (it is a mono device, not stereo).
This issue is not really about phantom powering. The important part is how the mics are wired. 3-wire is better than 2. 853's can only handle a little over 9v. If you use a 48v phantom power source, it would have to be converted back down to 9v anyway.
There is a solution for a 2-wire (1/8" mini-plug) that makes the mic perform like the 3-wire version. These are known as the 4.7k or 2.2k mod.
So, you have a few options. 3-wire mod, with (2) AT8532's, or the 2-wire 4.7k/2.2k mods. There are actually quite a few more options, but the for the equipment you have I think the 4.7k mod is your best bet. Chris Church does this modification, it is rather inexpensive. If you know how to solder well you could do it yourself...
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i'm not the pro here but you're getting the same thing from the PS-2 and actually without any reduction in DB's which these AT8532' will do......there input is a miniXLR and the output is a FULL XLR so not sure what you are doing with the PS-2 but you would need to take your 3.5mm to full XLR with phantom adapters so you are probably not using your AT's with the PS-2 right?
the short version is.....stick with what you got. ;D you would need TWO of these AT8532's, one for each mic, so its not any smaller i don't think....and you'd need to terminate your mics to miniXLR somehow - a patch cable could do it......I think.....
ninja.
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I think he is using the deneke preamp, not the ps2 phantom supply. That would fry the AT853's by giving it full 48v phantom. Perhaps he has the sound pro's mini-mod on the denecke preamp. This gives a 1/8" input with 9v power. It is a great option. The only reason to get the 4.7k mod is if you are having distortion in loud situations (or you were overloading the denecke)
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his sig has the PS-2 in it....i don't think he is using the PS-2 with the AT without the phantom adapters...
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I just got the C4's and needed the PS-2 for those, but for my stealthy mics, I am running them into Chris' ST-9100.
So it looked like the 4.7K mod is my solution to to get the the most from my 853's? They are the 943 bodies with the 853 caps (adaptors being used). Does that make a difference?
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Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
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Belexes...it does not matter running the 853's with the 943 bodies,that is what i plan to do. the adapters make it seemless. there are a few who can do the 4.7k mod since you have the 9100, chris would surely do it but you'll have to ship to him....doing the 4.7k mod is going to lower your DB to the recorder by 5-10dbs on average but with you using the 9100, this is easily made up with clean gain. you'll just have to find the new sweet spot on the gain depending on teh show cause it is going to change. i would definately get the 4.7k mod since a 3 wire setup won't work for you as you already have the gear for 3.5mm connections, etc...and allows you to use your MM's as well with teh 9100 or not...they don't need anything...i myself am going to use the 3 wire setup (hardwired battery box) but that is becuase i got it coming that way and frankly, i like the idea of it better (its the way they are supposed to be run). i think i am going to try without a 9100 or other preamp to start, i don't think i'll need it going into the R9 - i hope to put the money into more mics instead. ;D
good luck.
ninja.
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+T ninja and all others. I'll have Chris do my mod.
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You need to get mini xlrs put on them. Soundpros does the mod for like 80.00..the mod also includes the nady phantom power adaptors..which you need otherwise the denecke will fry the mics. I use this as my primary stealth rig and couldnt be more happy. Sure it is bulkier than some other set ups but the quality of the recordings is top notch. The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.
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Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
How does this post have anything to do with this thread? There is nothing in manufacture documentation that deals with the modification of these microphones specifically regarding stealth concert recording. If there is some documentation that deals with the differences in performance when terminating the mics differently, plese point that to me.
Sometimes I wonder if people even read threads before they post...
The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.
These mics are actually designed to run on 3-wire , plug-in-power. Phantom power is used only out of convienience. All of the stock 853 gear has a phantom adapter built in that converts 48v->9v. That being siad, 3-wire 9v is just as good and less bulky that using the 48v options. I would be happy to argue that the 4.7k mod is just as good as well...
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The tech at audio-technica told me these mics were designed to use phantom power..which is why they sell the power modules. When a.t. ships them out..to say soundpros...they have mini xlrs on them. (sp then takes them off and puts on a mini plug, or leaves them on for the "modification"and then charges) if they worked good just using a standard b.b., people wouldnt be getting the mics modded. The reason for the mic mod is to compensate for the mics being powered incorrectly. If you dont believe it..call audio-technica.
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Just a suggestion for the future....if your 9100 has mini plug input, I would go with having your mics modded with mini-XLR connectors and have Chris build you a mini-XLR to mini plug cable with the 4.7k mod in the cable. I just built one of these for myself so as to take advantage of a Sound Pros battery box I have so I could run two set ups. The mini-XLR terminations will give you more options if you go into phantom in the future with adaptors and such with the ATs.
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The tech at audio-technica told me these mics were designed to use phantom power..which is why they sell the power modules. When a.t. ships them out..to say soundpros...they have mini xlrs on them. (sp then takes them off and puts on a mini plug, or leaves them on for the "modification"and then charges) if they worked good just using a standard b.b., people wouldnt be getting the mics modded. The reason for the mic mod is to compensate for the mics being powered incorrectly. If you dont believe it..call audio-technica.
You are correct that the mics are designed to be powered by phantom, however the current that actually reaches the capsule is 9v in any configuaration. Anything much over 10v will cause damage to the mics. The AT's are only powered by phantom through a 48v->9v converter, thus phantom is only used because it is a popular voltage in many preamps/recorders. If you have a 1.5-9v power source you can eliminate the phantom adapter that is built in to all AT mics. This makes the mic much smaller for stealth work. This, if anything, improves the sound of the mics as you are eliminating uneccesary parts from the signal chain.
The problem people have when running plug in power has nothing to do with the voltage. When people use mini-xlrs they get the benifit of 3-wire powering, NOT the benifit of 48v phantom. 9v Plug In power is just as good as 48v phantom if they are 3-wire. 1/8" mini-plugs are 2-wire and are not as good. The exception is the 4.7k 2 wire mod.
PHANTOM powering does nothing to improve the sound.
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i wish i would have read this 4 years ago....there is so much misconception out there (ie. phantom is the only way to go), etc. etc.....
i've finally moved to three wire power for the AT's but until it was explained by Fred here, i still wasn' sure if the 3 wire was the same/better than phantom. thanks for the explainations in here....
ninjadave.
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I don't claim to be an expert by any stretch, and I realize each setup has its pro's and con's, and what works for one person might not work for another (due to budget constraints; level of comfort with different gear sizes; has other equipment and seeks interchangeability). I hold illconditioned's opinion in very high regard, and here is what he has to say with the 4.7k mod option vs. the phantom option:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,90977.msg1211265.html#msg1211265
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I should have clarified..i wasnt getting at they sound better with phantom..i was getting at they are near impossible to overload using phantom. The 853s are notorious for clipping with high spls (when underpowered) so to me it makes sense to keep the odds of that happening as low as possible...ya'know.
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yeah I feel ya, using phantom certainly won't hurt...
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Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
How does this post have anything to do with this thread? There is nothing in manufacture documentation that deals with the modification of these microphones specifically regarding stealth concert recording. If there is some documentation that deals with the differences in performance when terminating the mics differently, plese point that to me.
Sometimes I wonder if people even read threads before they post...
The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.
These mics are actually designed to run on 3-wire , plug-in-power. Phantom power is used only out of convienience. All of the stock 853 gear has a phantom adapter built in that converts 48v->9v. That being siad, 3-wire 9v is just as good and less bulky that using the 48v options. I would be happy to argue that the 4.7k mod is just as good as well...
NO f 'in way. You're talking out your arse. P48 will increase dynamic range, lower noise, improve frequency response, yada yada yada........... In a nut shell: way better sounding. If a chincy 3-wire 9v setup was better than or equal to P48, don't you think the whole world would have made the change? Nooop! P48 is king!!!! ;)
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Information on various microphones is best found at the manufacturer: http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/c0075f38c1add6ad/index.html
How does this post have anything to do with this thread? There is nothing in manufacture documentation that deals with the modification of these microphones specifically regarding stealth concert recording. If there is some documentation that deals with the differences in performance when terminating the mics differently, plese point that to me.
Sometimes I wonder if people even read threads before they post...
The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.
These mics are actually designed to run on 3-wire , plug-in-power. Phantom power is used only out of convienience. All of the stock 853 gear has a phantom adapter built in that converts 48v->9v. That being siad, 3-wire 9v is just as good and less bulky that using the 48v options. I would be happy to argue that the 4.7k mod is just as good as well...
NO f 'in way. You're talking out your arse. P48 will increase dynamic range, lower noise, improve frequency response, yada yada yada........... In a nut shell: way better sounding. If a chincy 3-wire 9v setup was better than or equal to P48, don't you think the whole world would have made the change? Nooop! P48 is king!!!! ;)
Actually man, I think you are wrong. AT853's are not a regualr condensor microphone. They are electret condensor microphones. Electret mics only use a small voltage. As long as you power them with 5v+, you will get all the dynamic range and frequnecy response thay can produce....
Being that the statistics for battery use VS phantom on the 853A differ an argument could be made that the phantom does increase performance. I think this has more to do with the internal battery of the at853A having too low of a voltage.
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Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.
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Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.
You are wrong. These mics need between 3 and 9v, no more, no less. All the phantom power adapter does is step the 48v down to 3-9v for the field effect transistor directly behind the mic capsule. It also provides a transformer (for low impedance, balanced output), but for short runs we don't need that.
You should believe me as I've traced this circuit. I've also measured the voltages at the mic element while it was driven with phantom power.
So, why does AT ship phantom adapters for their electret mics:
1. To provide the 9v without an extra battery.
2. To provide a standard console interface.
3. To provide noise and interference free driving of long mic runs (50 to 100' is not unusual).
Richard
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Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.
It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here. Speaking of A.T., they will not tell you phantom is key, "period." I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box. They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes. You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes. If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important. This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation. In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs. I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue. Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications.
As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that. A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver), costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).
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Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.
It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here. Speaking of A.T., they will not tell you phantom is key, "period." I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box. They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes. You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes. If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important. This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation. In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs. I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue. Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications.
As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that. A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver), costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).
mine, for example with the ps-2 and the adaptors ran just under $300.00... am i wrong in stating that a 3 wire bb is cheaper than that? i was under the impression they could be built rather cheaply or even ordered ,from sp for example, for not much more than a standard bb...???
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Not sure why this is even a debate? The guys at a.t. will tell you phantom power is key..period. Not that other methods wont "work"...they just are not ideal. The mic mod and 3 wire bb are simply a much less expensive alternative. You will get better performance with phantom vs. the other couple options.period.
It is a debate because there is a good bit of missinformation here. Speaking of A.T., they will not tell you phantom is key, "period." I have spoke at length with them about the 4.7k mod and the 3 wire powering through a 9v battery box. They are aware of these mods and understand that they work perfectly for our purposes. You must understand that the AT853 series was not designed for our purposes. If you ask a AT tech about phantom power for the 853's he might suggest phantom is important. This is because they are assuming that you are using these mics for the purpose they were designed for. Installation. In in installation setting the mics must be driven with a ballanced line, as there are often long cable runs. I think Richard explained this well so i wont continue. Bottom line is a ballanced, phantom powered source is just not nessesary to power any electret microphone in short distance applications.
As far as your claim that the mod/3 wire solution is much cheaper solution, I don't see how you get that. A 3-wire battery box is about the same cost as a pair of phantom adapters...
I had one hell of an expensive 2-wire AT setup not long ago (at853(4.7k)->CA9100->ModSBM-1->iRiver), costs the same as my three wire setup now (ATu873r->Oade PMD660).
The three wire solution is cheaper *in parts*. It costs only about $20-30 to make a battery box, either two or three wire. It costs even less to add a 4.7k mod and to use a regular two wire battery box. Then there is the added advantage that you can plug directly into a regular recorder (minidisc, Edirol R09). The problem, is that unless you're a hacker, you can't find a 3-wire battery box easily. A few of us (Chris Church, Busman, and myself) made battery boxes for others, but we charged for labour as well, so that drives the cost up.
Yes, if you've got phantom power already, then by all means use the adapters. That is probably the *simplest* solution, since you can just plug directly into the recorder without extra connections/worries of a battery box.
To each is own, it depends what you've already got and where you're going.
Richard
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yeah, you are right, the adapters + phantom power box is more expensive, even more reason not to use them!
;)
The bottom line here: AT853's are freaking great mics!
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I think I am going to do the 4.7K mod and live with that for the time being. I am glad I posted this...lots of useful information.
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Attached is the AT853 spec sheet if anyone is interested in the info:
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Attached is the AT853 spec sheet if anyone is interested in the info:
The information does speak for itself.
If you notice, the 853 reaches full specs if powered from 9v-52v. The specs are diminished when powered by a 1.5v battery.
If you use a 3-wire, 9v source you are effectively producing the same results as a 48v phantom through the phantom adapter. The 9v-52v recomendation from AT is a great indication that these mics will perform fine at lower voltages. 48v is not nessesary.
The powering of any electret microphone is well documented. Many don't perform well when powered by 1.5-3v. max SPL, dynamic range and noise floor all go up when powered by 5v. It has been shown that more than 5v does nothing to improve sound. I think Chris Church tested this...
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I have some 853a's
that can be powered with a AA 1.5v
or Phantom
they do sound better with phantom
and also have a higher SPL level
these have a XLR out of the power module
I used a PS-2 with them
and also with out
Phantom doe make them sound better a bit cleaner
never used it for stealth
that way
there are a few versions of the 853's
mine have a mini xlr hard wire that''s 25' long to the power module(brains/electronics) of the mics...
I have the sub card caps as well as the supplied cardioid caps
always liked their sound especially for stealthing
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I have some 853a's
that can be powered with a AA 1.5v
or Phantom
they do sound better with phantom
and also have a higher SPL level
these have a XLR out of the power module
I used a PS-2 with them
and also with out
Phantom doe make them sound better a bit cleaner
never used it for stealth
that way
there are a few versions of the 853's
mine have a mini xlr hard wire that''s 25' long to the power module(brains/electronics) of the mics...
I have the sub card caps as well as the supplied cardioid caps
always liked their sound especially for stealthing
That is true, these mics sound poor with the AA battery. The problem is that battery does not have enough volts to drive the mic element (the field effect transistor). A proper battery solution will put at least three volts out to the mic. So, either run on phantom, as you are, or get a proper battery solution.
Richard
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You need to get mini xlrs put on them. Soundpros does the mod for like 80.00..the mod also includes the nady phantom power adaptors..which you need otherwise the denecke will fry the mics. I use this as my primary stealth rig and couldnt be more happy. Sure it is bulkier than some other set ups but the quality of the recordings is top notch. The 853s are designed to use phantom power..so to get the most out of them its the only way to go.
When using my preamp there is no advantage to using phantom power with these mics.. The guy at AT only wanted to sell you more gear... Phantom power or Plug in power is the same as far as the mics are concerned 10 VOLTS is 10 volts.. and the issue with the AT phantom power adaptors that everyone seems to forget is they have a built in HPF at 80hz... looping off your bottom end and there is no way to bypass this.. They actually degrade the performance of the mics for this specific application... LIVE recording.. Now there is a huge difference if your going to be using a high end preamp like a neve :) over my 9100 :) obviously my $200 preamp is not going to compete with a $2000 preamp... But I would think at that point in time your not going to be using $200 mics with your $2k preamp :)
Chris