Topic: Best Interconnects?

[Busman Audio]

first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

That is exactly how I feel.  If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

[Church-Audio]

first, can i hear a difference. more importantly, is the sonic difference justified by the difference in cost?. While 'boutique' high end cables, etc may not be entirely snake oil, and theres always room for quality materials and construction, there is the huge reality of diminishing returns, which usually comes into play.

That is exactly how I feel.  If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

I agree in the end its YOU that must be happy with YOUR gear. But I also think that if you can make a magic cable that I would love to hear what your hearing as a sound engineer my ears are very well trained. I still dont understand how your making your evaluation of the sound improvements of the cable in your system I would be curious to hear how your swapping out the cables.

Chris

[OFOTD]

I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That shoud expose any magic if there is any

The interconnect/cable/magic wheel just keeps turning.

Chirs I understand your thinking as well as your basic test idea.   I think you can do hundreds of tests however you or someone else wants but none of those tests are going to tell someone what they do and do not hear no matter what.   

Busman made several really good points above.  As an example on my studio playback (Mytek DAC96 > Dynaudio BM5a) I have run some of the mil-spec silver wire, a set of AM Excalibur II's and some Canare copper wires.   To my ears I found the mil-spec and AM's (which are both silver) to have a smoother (non-fatiguing)  high end than the copper cables.  The copper cables though gave me what I thought was more definition in the middle.    I can hear the difference.  No spectrum analyser can convince me otherwise.

If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

+T

[Church-Audio]

I think really the best test is recording files with different cables... That should expose any magic if there is any

The interconnect/cable/magic wheel just keeps turning.

Chris I understand your thinking as well as your basic test idea.   I think you can do hundreds of tests however you or someone else wants but none of those tests are going to tell someone what they do and do not hear no matter what.   

Busman made several really good points above.  As an example on my studio playback (Mytek DAC96 > Dynaudio BM5a) I have run some of the mil-spec silver wire, a set of AM Excalibur Ii and some Canare copper wires.   To my ears I found the mil-spec and Am's (which are both silver) to have a smoother (non-fatiguing)  high end than the copper cables.  The copper cables though gave me what I thought was more definition in the middle.    I can hear the difference.  No spectrum analyser can convince me otherwise.

If I hear the difference that is what matters to ME, I don't really care what others think. The point is to figure out what matters to you.

+T

David at the end of the day all that matters is what you think you can hear that's how cable companies make money What I am saying is simple take two good quality cables * mic cables or signal cables * and swap them out one for the other by the time you change them you dont know what sounding like what any more and you are totally biased because you know what cable is what since your the one doing the changing Don't you think some of what your hearing is physiological?

I would still like a real test with three wav files and three sets of cables. I dont have a balanced out cd player or a recorder with a balanced input or I would do it my self. I am pretty sure nobody will be able to hear any difference but we will see. I hope someone out there sees this and has the right gear to do this simple test.

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement... But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier


Chris

[OFOTD]

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well

I think you may have your ideas of how people are doing their own comps a bit off.  For me I don't feel like I can get a handle on how a particular piece of equipment sounds with a song sample.  For me I take a disc or discs and will listen to 20-30 minutes at least.  In that time I can adjust to the subtle differences in equipment.  So for me listening to a reference disc for 30 minutes, then taking one minute to change some interconnects and then listen to my reference disc again for a period of time I do believe that I can hear the differences without memory loss of the first listen through.

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement...   But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live concert field recording I would be more than qualified to make this statement as well...

[Church-Audio]

I still stand by my point IMO in the time it takes to change cables NO HUMAN can remember the differences in the cables being listened too now if you could switch one cable off and another cable on * pretty much impossible * then maybe you can hear a difference but nobody can remember sound that well

I think you may have your ideas of how people are doing their own comps a bit off.  For me I don't feel like I can get a handle on how a particular piece of equipment sounds with a song sample.  For me I take a disc or discs and will listen to 20-30 minutes at least.  In that time I can adjust to the subtle differences in equipment.  So for me listening to a reference disc for 30 minutes, then taking one minute to change some interconnects and then listen to my reference disc again for a period of time I do believe that I can hear the differences without memory loss of the first listen through.

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live I would be more then qualified to make this statement...   But if you think you can cool all the power to you. I should employ you to listen to my capsules one by one that will make matching so much easier

I would certainly think after 20 years of doing sound in a professional setting in the studio and live concert field recording I would be more than qualified to make this statement as well...

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

[OFOTD]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough

I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

Just because you cannot hear a difference does not mean that that difference is not there and perceptible by others.

Its very similar to a person with problems with color differences. One person could look at 10 different but close shades of blue and see that they are all a bit off or you could have a person that is unable to distinguish between the slight shading differences and only sees one shade of blue and not the ten different shades.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree.

Fair enough

I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

Just because you cannot hear a difference does not mean that that difference is not there and perceptible by others.

Its very similar to a person with problems with color differences. One person could look at 10 different but close shades of blue and see that they are all a bit off or you could have a person that is unable to distinguish between the slight shading differences and only sees one shade of blue and not the ten different shades.

If its one thing I have learned its that sound is subjective. I can hear very well and very small changes in sound * I have been tested many times * by bands and by audiologists..* I would love to hear some proof of this magic maybe one day somebody will take my up on my challenge.... Until then I will stick with mogami and monster cable for my speakers and interconnects. I do want some of the magic sound crystals though

[Busman Audio]

[/quote]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you
[/quote]

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you
[/quote]

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.


[/quote]

Please lets not get into what I know and dont know.. Lets just say this take two good cables and in a blind test I dont think you could tell the difference but if you can great.. Show me the samples If not then lets agree to disagree. I am not saying there is no difference between a shit cable and a well made one.. I am saying between two well made cables you cant hear a difference. I stand by my words.

[Church-Audio]

A couple of people have brought up the issue of balanced and unbalanced connections.  If we are talking about an unbalanced cable, then the first thing I would do is loop the cable back to the A/D with no signal to get a baseline recording of the resulting EMI spectrum (and converter noise, of course).  That's also useful with a balanced cable, but since the balanced connection should have reasonable CMRR, it will be much more prominent with an unbalanced connection.

If there is a big difference in induced noise, that could be simply attributed to the quality of the shielding, no new laws of physics required . . . it would also potentially be quite audible, and could impact listening impressions of program material.  It's not uncommon for the program material to swamp directly audible hum, while still having considerable noise "hash" in ultrahigh frequencies, which could exceed the level of the high-frequency content of the desired signal.

It could also account for a degree of variation in different systems, since the EMI environment will differ markedly.

Regarding the color analogy, it would be trivial for a high-quality CCD to distinguish between the shades, even if a particular viewer had impaired vision.  And with respect to laws of physics, it is incumbent upon the manufacturer of a cable to explain why their product is superior given those laws, or to promulgate new scientific theories that support their assertions.

If only things were so simple.. The second you do a loop back test you are changing the load on each end of the cable and that in and of it self can change the way the cable performs issues like grounding and its effect on the capacitance of the cable and the resistive and reactive load differences. But if you were to say do my idea you can make a recording with three different cables and use your ears + test gear to hear the differences and you can use a computer directly with out the need of a  2nd analog transfer. That in my mind is a more objective test with no chance of skewed results. But again as soon as you mention test gear some of the audiophiles get all upset and say My ears are first.. I agree Ears first test gear second but one thing is for sure if you can hear it you should be able to measure it unless the magic defies the laws of physics


Chris

[pyiteac]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

[TNJazz]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

[pyiteac]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

I hear a difference in my recordings.  The ONLY thing that changed is the interconnects.  The bass is deeper and smoother.  I get more detail in the low end and the highs are clearer.  Can I pinpoint where that comes from? Not really.  I really don't care where it comes from.  It sounds better to me. I know it's an unscientific argument, but guess what?  I'm the only one who really cares how my recordings come out anyway.  I started this thread to get opinions on good interconnects.  If you don't think they make a difference then why chime in?

[SparkE!]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.