Topic: Best Interconnects?

[pyiteac]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

[pyiteac]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.  I was merely pointing out semantics of his argument.  He was contradicting himself, but it was in jest.

[Church-Audio]

Well I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think that its pretty easy to be fooled into thinking something can make a difference when in fact it does not. But if you feel you can hear it all the power to you

You are now saying that it is a fact that cables don't sound different.  With 20 years of experience I would think you should know better than to say that. Not trying to be rude. Just thinking out loud here. I could just be taking it out of context but that is how I read that statement.

Did you not take physics classes at some point.  It is fact that different metals conduct electricity in different ways therefore it affects the signal in some way. This in turn means that there should be an audible difference in different types of cables, also a measurable one.

As a public service, I've corrected the formatting on the above quotes.

Oh yeah...  Almost forgot... I have taken 4 semesters of physics.  I also have taken an intensive 5 credit hour course on transmission line theory at a major university from a man that is widely accepted as a leading expert on transmission lines and cables and yet I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.  They are never willing to do the simple test suggested by Chris.  They want us to accept on faith that well trained ears can tell the difference between cheap cables and the expensive cables that they sell.  Moreover, people are often too willing to profess their faith in the experts. It's like the emperor's new clothes.  It seems that no one wants to admit that they can't hear the differences the experts claim to hear, nor do they want to admit that the emperor appears to be completely naked.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Spark'e has forgotten more about electronics then I or most people hear could ever remember. The man is an expert in his field and in the 30 years or so that I have been tinkering with electronics I have never had the privilege of talking to someone that knew more about the subject of electronics then Brad. I consider my self very lucky to be able to talk to him and get ideas from him for my products. So yeah he is an expert and is someone I have 100% faith in. 


Chris

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.  I was merely pointing out semantics of his argument.  He was contradicting himself, but it was in jest.

What I am others are saying is maybe you dont need to spend so much money on cables. The really strange thing is  people get all upset when we say that... LOL makes no sense to me... But to each there own. I have my opinion and its based on my ears and its also based on the fact that nobody has ever proven me wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt. Its like big foot or UFO'S LOL lots of people see them but nobody has any real evidence. And I do realize your comments were in fun. I was making a point that Spark'e knows his stuff. 

[TNJazz]

This has been a good thread to follow.  I can see both sides of the argument, but I am a firm believer in the fact that you get your monies worth.  I am not a professional in this and have a very limited experience using a large variety or cables.  I am much happier with my recordings after I upgraded/changed(depending on your view) my cables.  I used to use starquad mic cables and Monster Cable RCA'S but, to my ears, my recordings sound better with the Zaolla's and Kimber's.  FYI:  I only spent $90 for both sets of cables so It didn't break the bank.  I just shopped around and figured it wouldn't hurt to use them.  Good investment so far.  Continue with your scientific data and rhetoric,  I am learning a lot about the science of signal transmission.  It's cool as hell.   

You said you heard a difference in your recordings when you switched cables, but how can you be sure it was the cables that were making the difference?  Was it the exact same rig otherwise?  Did you switch up cables at the show, or are you comparing 2 different shows?  Same venue?  Same band?  Did the engineer make ANY adjustments to the mix that might account for some of the tonal changes you hear on the recording?  Remember, mixing a band live is hardly a "set and forget" process, at least for any decent FOH engineer.

Too many potential variables to my mind, but again if you feel you're getting your money's worth then that's all that matters.

I hear a difference in my recordings.  The ONLY thing that changed is the interconnects.  The bass is deeper and smoother.  I get more detail in the low end and the highs are clearer.  Can I pinpoint where that comes from? Not really.  I really don't care where it comes from.  It sounds better to me. I know it's an unscientific argument, but guess what?  I'm the only one who really cares how my recordings come out anyway.  I started this thread to get opinions on good interconnects.  If you don't think they make a difference then why chime in?

Because you asked the question, and that's a valid position whether you like it or not (and obviously you don't).  Or are you just looking for someone to convince you that you did the right thing spending money on expensive cables?

You went from asking a seemingly innocuous question about a HIGHLY inflammatory topic and now that a few folks on this thread have taken the position that "cable is cable" and have asked you how you know it's the cables making the difference, you're getting defensive.  Obviously you wanted someone to tell you "brand X is the best" and everyone else to agree hands down. 

More than a few folks on this thread (some of whom actually make a LIVING in audio) have said it doesn't make a difference and that bothers you apparently, since you now "no longer care where your improvements come from" (according to your post above).

I really don't care what side of the argument any of the participants of this discussion is on.  I'm more happy with my new cables.  End of discussion for me.

Then why start this topic in the first place?  You're always going to get some responders agreeing with you that there's a difference, and some who will tell you it's irrelevant.  If you can't tolerate differing opinions and questions about how you measure the difference you hear, maybe you shouldn't ask questions in this forum.

[SparkE!]

I'm not going to waste my time arguing with an audiophile cable expert.

So are you a said expert?  I have no faith in experts.

Ha!  Actually no, I'm no such expert.  The whole phrase is "audiophile cable expert" and I've found that part of being such an expert is having audiophile cables for sale.  Formal training on the science and physics  of cables is optional for such experts.

I do know a lot about the manner in which cables work, though.  At audio frequencies, you are not going to hear the differences in materials used for the conductors.  (Bear with me a bit and don't just get mad at what I'm saying.  Read on.  This is a complicated subject, but I've tried to summarize my understanding of the subject below.)

The people on here that are saying that it's termination impedances that are most important and how the cables interact with those impedances are right on.  Materials are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation in a typical 20 foot mic cable.

What does matter is cable geometry because that determines things like bulk cable capacitance and series inductance.  Why does that matter? Because, depending on the output impedance of your mics and the input impedance of your preamp, that bulk capacitance and series inductance will cause some minor shaping of the frequency response of your mic>cable>preamp signal path.  If you simply change the metal content of your cable without changing cable geometry, there's no way you're going to hear the difference. But if you change cable geometry, you start affecting things that will produce changes that are actually audible to the trained ear.  One other thing that matters is what materials are used for the insulators on the wires.  Changes in dielectric constant will produce changes in bulk capacitance, just like changing cable geometry does.  Changes in magnetic permeability of cable materials would also produce similar changes, but most cable materials have essentially the same magnetic permeability, so magnetic permeability is probably a moot issue.  It would only come into play for cables that have ferrites or other high permeability materials involved in their construction.

[Busman Audio]

Nice comments SparkE.  Thanks.

one thing that I always come back to is the fact that not all of the cables have the same wire made at the same plant with the exact same metallurgy. Therefore some must be better than others. Theory...

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables. This is where high end cables come into play.
Just like my hose analogy. The more pure and clean the metal the better the signal transmission. this is a simple thing to understand without any technical jargon.

Again though I think it is up to your ears to hear the difference. This is why some studio engineers and mastering enginers get more business than others. People trust their ears to get the best sound and sometimes we just have to figure out that,  yes some people have better hearing for music than others. This has nothing to do with how often you have your hearing checked it has more to do with art.  Music is art not science.
A lot have trained their ears to hear better than others.   This is why people get paid as experts in their field.

I want someone to prove to us that know there is a difference wrong. As the law states,  innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.

There will always be a market for high end cables,  Why do you think Monster is so huge. they marketed themselves as sounding better and even chris obviously believed this because he says he uses Monster.  So what is wrong with others saying their product is even better if they know it is. I don't have a problem with people using any cable they want but I do have a problem with people just saying that high end users are wrong.

You guys really have gotten my brain moving along these past few days,  Thanks everyone and plus t

[SparkE!]

Materials are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation in a typical 20 foot mic cable.

Oops...  Clarification: Differences in the metals used in construction of cables are going to account for no more than a couple 1/100ths of a dB difference in attenuation between different cable designs, provided that the cable geometries are the same and provided that the dielectric materials (insulators and jacketing) are the same.  It's not the conductors that make the biggest difference.  It's the ratio of conductor diameter to conductor spacing and it's the materials used for the dielectrics that really matter as far as electrical performance goes.  Even then, the differences are generally pretty subtle and it takes a really good ear to tell the difference between cables of different cable geometries and/or different dielectrics.

[Church-Audio]

Nice comments SparkE.  Thanks.

one thing that I always come back to is the fact that not all of the cables have the same wire made at the same plant with the exact same metallurgy. Therefore some must be better than others. Theory...

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables. This is where high end cables come into play.
Just like my hose analogy. The more pure and clean the metal the better the signal transmission. this is a simple thing to understand without any technical jargon.

Again though I think it is up to your ears to hear the difference. This is why some studio engineers and mastering enginers get more business than others. People trust their ears to get the best sound and sometimes we just have to figure out that,  yes some people have better hearing for music than others. This has nothing to do with how often you have your hearing checked it has more to do with art.  Music is art not science.
A lot have trained their ears to hear better than others.   This is why people get paid as experts in their field.

I want someone to prove to us that know there is a difference wrong. As the law states,  innocent until proven guilty not the other way around.

There will always be a market for high end cables,  Why do you think Monster is so huge. they marketed themselves as sounding better and even chris obviously believed this because he says he uses Monster.  So what is wrong with others saying their product is even better if they know it is. I don't have a problem with people using any cable they want but I do have a problem with people just saying that high end users are wrong.

You guys really have gotten my brain moving along these past few days,  Thanks everyone and plus t

Um actually I use monster cable for my speakers because its the only thick gauge wire I could find in my little town.. So I whent with it. It could have said radio shack lol I still would have purchased it. I use #8 stranded copper.. I am going to techflex them and put fancy gold pins on the end this week and coil them up so they sound better lol.. Just kidding.. No really I did not buy monster cable because of the name it was purely because they were the biggest cables I could find at the time.. I did however let them rest for 24 hours before hooking them up to my speakers and now that they are broken in lol the sound stage is so much better..... sorry I could not resist...


Edit not " cooper " but copper lol.....

Chris

[Busman Audio]

   Good laughs Chris.  I think the techflex will make those Monsters sing 


SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

[datbrad]

Like gold jewelry,  Not all are the same, some are more pure than others and this is the same for cables.

This is one of the best statements I have read in this thread, and likely was unintended to make this point:

A solid gold wrist watch does not keep time better than one made of stainless steel. However, a gold watch does cost significantly more, so why would any person buy a gold watch when they could get just as accurate a timepiece made of stainless steel for far less? Or more importantly, would anyone buy a gold watch if watches were worn on a part of the body that was not in plain view?

I will leave you guys with a neat story that I feel could help to explain some of the $$$$ cable skeptics' feelings.

A buddy of mine works for a company that makes gear for the cable television industry. Not the stuff in your house, but in the racks at the cable company, and the field testing equipment used by technicians. Back in the '90s, they introduced a new signal leak "sniffer" device, a shoulder carried unit used by technicians to detect signal loss up on the lines on the poles out on the street. They used some completely new materials and construction techniques and it was more accurate and sensitive than the old unit and they initially offered the devices for something like $1200 each, to replace their old standard unit that sold for $5000.

Despite it's superior performance, lighter weight, and lower price, they could not sell them. My buddy told me that one of the sales guys heard from several wholesalers that said that cable companies were suspicious and believed that no device at that price point could be as good. So guess how they solved this problem? They redesigned the cabinet, switched from a vinyl case to a leather one like the old unit had, and reissued basically the same unit with a different model number, and bumped the price to $3500. They sold like wildfire after this. This story suggests that there is an assumption of price=performance level that is often assumed and not necessarily true.

Just something to think about............

[Church-Audio]

  Good laughs Chris.  I think the techflex will make those Monsters sing 


SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

I did not want to tell you this because you make microphones * I dont want to give away any of my secrets * but the reason why my mics sound so good is I put a little bit of teckflex on the diaphragm between the capsule and the screen It really gives them a nice crunchy sound

[Church-Audio]

i thought techflex made it sound better because of the trapped beer and dirt from the arena floor?

Thanks the cats out of the bag now! the was the other secret I did not want to tell anyone

[Church-Audio]

SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

Silver and copper has difference in conductivity which changes the resistance of the cable.  For a long speaker cable, that might make a difference (although it is probably still cheaper to attack the problem with thicker copper).  For a line-level impedance, the signal loss due to cable resistance is trivial (SparkE's 0.01dB figure).
[/quote]

I think we are all aware that different metals have a difference in conductivity. But you cant simply do a loopback test with out first recreating the load the cable will see in real world conditions.. And some microphones and preamps have a reactive load not a static load. Because of transformers for just one example. This further complicates the issue of "this cable will make your mics sound better" statements because with some mics if we believe that some cables sound better then others will sound different with different loads on them IF you believe that you can hear that I am pretty sceptical.

Chris

[SparkE!]

SparkE,   I meant not only the type of metal but the actual make up of the metals. How pure and also if any of them use alloys even if they claim they are copper or silver.  This is not something I know but I would theorize that this would definitely affect sound quality/color. I mean most agree that silver vs. copper has differences so.....

Silver and copper has difference in conductivity which changes the resistance of the cable.  For a long speaker cable, that might make a difference (although it is probably still cheaper to attack the problem with thicker copper).  For a line-level impedance, the signal loss due to cable resistance is trivial (SparkE's 0.01dB figure).

I think we are all aware that different metals have a difference in conductivity. But you cant simply do a loopback test with out first recreating the load the cable will see in real world conditions.. And some microphones and preamps have a reactive load not a static load. Because of transformers for just one example. This further complicates the issue of "this cable will make your mics sound better" statements because with some mics if we believe that some cables sound better then others will sound different with different loads on them IF you believe that you can hear that I am pretty sceptical.

Chris

Dang, Chris.  Fixing your quotations again.  Carry on.