Author Topic: Cardioid recommendations for stealthing (Read 9922 times)

colargol · « **on:** February 09, 2009, 03:07:49 PM »

Hi!

I've been taping with Core Sound Cardioids for years now, but would like to try something "better". A lot of people on TS seem to prefer Schoeps mics, and I'm considering this, but I would like to hear if there are other, more affordable mics out there that would increase the quality of my recordings. So, basically, any ideas for cardioid mics that would:

be small enough to work in a lot of stealth situations
not require a whole load of batteries for every show
cost somewhere between usd250 and usd 2000 for a pair
not overload easily, but work well for not-so-loud shows too
preferably not need phantom power, or otherwise work easily with edirol r-09 or similar

Any help appreciated...

-Colargol

su6oxone · « **Reply #1 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:28:18 PM »

You can find DPA 402x sets on ebay occasionally for around $2500. That is if you mostly stealth.

Quote from: colargol on February 09, 2009, 03:07:49 PM

Hi!

I've been taping with Core Sound Cardioids for years now, but would like to try something "better". A lot of people on TS seem to prefer Schoeps mics, and I'm considering this, but I would like to hear if there are other, more affordable mics out there that would increase the quality of my recordings. So, basically, any ideas for cardioid mics that would:

be small enough to work in a lot of stealth situations
not require a whole load of batteries for every show
cost somewhere between usd250 and usd 2000 for a pair
not overload easily, but work well for not-so-loud shows too
preferably not need phantom power, or otherwise work easily with edirol r-09 or similar

Any help appreciated...

-Colargol

(Evan) · « **Reply #2 on:** February 09, 2009, 04:41:35 PM »

Just wondering...how exactly do you stealth with those DPA compacts? Where do you put them?

schoepsnbox · « **Reply #3 on:** February 09, 2009, 05:05:21 PM »

MK4>Nbox

Dede2002 · « **Reply #4 on:** February 09, 2009, 05:10:17 PM »

In the $ 250 field, I have to say HLSC-1 (Sennheiser/Microphone Madness). Fits all your needs.

edtyre · « **Reply #5 on:** February 09, 2009, 05:25:34 PM »

BEST mk4>nbox or dpa 4023>aerco

The best sound i captured before i moved on to schoeps
was with the at853rx>phantom adapters>aerco (way under 1000 used)
or a ps2 instead of aerco for just loud rock shows (under 500)

Sunday Driver · « **Reply #6 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:33:01 PM »

Quote from: Dede2002 on February 09, 2009, 05:10:17 PM

In the $ 250 field, I have to say HLSC-1 (Sennheiser/Microphone Madness). Fits all your needs.

I don't know about that- I thought about getting some mke40s, but I think the mics are more geared towards vocal pick-up with a lot of midrange bass, but very little "low" bass. The mids sound very warm, and they may be slightly more detailed than the AT 853s, but that lack of low bass turned me off. The U853s are much more balanced, but they do lack some depth and detail compared to higher end mics like the Schoeps mk4. I've come to realize that when you deal with mics that are less than $300, they all seem to have their individual shortcomings.

Another pre-Schoeps option is some MBHO actives, which could be stealthed with some thought.

shaggy · « **Reply #7 on:** February 09, 2009, 06:46:20 PM »

I know you want recs outside of Schoeps but let me tell you, I thought alot about this over the years; nothing beats a pair of mk4vs for the said situation. All other options will leave you with some sort of mechanical contact issue with your head (except the DPA 4021s).

Dede2002 · « **Reply #8 on:** February 10, 2009, 01:06:32 PM »

Quote from: Sunday Driver on February 09, 2009, 06:33:01 PM

Quote from: Dede2002 on February 09, 2009, 05:10:17 PM
In the $ 250 field, I have to say HLSC-1 (Sennheiser/Microphone Madness). Fits all your needs.

I've come to realize that when you deal with mics that are less than $300, they all seem to have their individual shortcomings.

I have to agree.
They all have their issues.
I don't find the MKE40 (HLSC-1) to be light on the bass side. Not earthshaking bass, but no light ( to my ears). Considering the fact that most amplified live music tends to present a criminal amount of bass, that's not a bad thing really.
Take care

nicegrin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 10, 2009, 08:04:37 PM »

For about 250 dollars I´d strongly suggest a pair of AT 853s or 943s.
If you stealth and want clean and nice sounding recordings I´d reccomend the hypercapsules.
Don´t forget to add low sens mod for louder stuff.
Good luck!

colargol · « **Reply #10 on:** February 13, 2009, 11:50:09 AM »

Hi!

Thanks everyone for good advice... My nbox is ordered, so I'm heading towards the nbox team, I suppose :-)

-C

Ekib · « **Reply #11 on:** February 19, 2009, 12:34:48 PM »

Keep your Core-Sound's. You will only regret trying to find something better . I know people who did and spent an awful lot of money and really , it didn't sound better...but worse.
I have heard the MM Highline and they're a joke compared to Core Sound Stealthy Cardiod. They have way too much bass . The biggest problem for example at rockshows are the double bassdrums. Core Sound picks those perfect.

They're my favourite mic's ever...and I will NEVER change them.

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #12 on:** February 19, 2009, 12:50:10 PM »

church audio ca-14.
under your budget, but great sounding mics

Ekib · « **Reply #13 on:** February 19, 2009, 01:08:19 PM »

Quote from: heyitsmejess on February 19, 2009, 12:50:10 PM

church audio ca-14.
under your budget, but great sounding mics

Heard good things about those indeed !
But I haven't heard a recording so far.

Belexes · « **Reply #14 on:** February 19, 2009, 01:42:25 PM »

Quote from: Ekib on February 19, 2009, 12:34:48 PM

Keep your Core-Sound's. You will only regret trying to find something better . I know people who did and spent an awful lot of money and really , it didn't sound better...but worse.
I have heard the MM Highline and they're a joke compared to Core Sound Stealthy Cardiod. They have way too much bass . The biggest problem for example at rockshows are the double bassdrums. Core Sound picks those perfect.

I have owned or do own the CSB's, MM's (card), AT943's, AT853's, CA-14's.

CSB's were a good mic and it seemed when I got them in the mid-90s that it was the go-to mic for about $250 that everyone seemed to flock towards. I wanted to try the Sonic Sense DSM's, but didn't have the $. In 2004 I moved to the AT series and have not regretted it one bit and for my setup saw improved stealth recordings. Now I am on a Church Audio kick with the CA-14's. I don't think I'll ever go back to the CoreSounds. Good mics for a time, but a wealth more of and IMHO better choices on the market.

You stated that the MM's had too much bass. Do you mean the omni's? Some people here have complained there was not enough bass response for the cardioid, but that wasn't my experience all. I found the MM's to have a lot of detail with that Sennheiser sound.

Dede2002 · « **Reply #15 on:** February 19, 2009, 01:58:56 PM »

Quote from: Belexes on February 19, 2009, 01:42:25 PM

You stated that the MM's had too much bass. Do you mean the omni's? Some people here have complained there was not enough bass response for the cardioid, but that wasn't my experience all. I found the MM's to have a lot of detail with that Sennheiser sound.

Agreed. To my ears, the MM's cards ( HLSC-1) are great sounding mics for a nice price.

heyitsmejess · « **Reply #16 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:01:05 PM »

Quote from: Ekib on February 19, 2009, 01:08:19 PM

Quote from: heyitsmejess on February 19, 2009, 12:50:10 PM
church audio ca-14.
under your budget, but great sounding mics

Heard good things about those indeed !
But I haven't heard a recording so far.

these arent the cards...they are the ca-14 omnis.

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uf93ln

rumpke mountian boys
ca-14 omni > ca9100 > h120

cybergaloot · « **Reply #17 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:06:18 PM »

Quote from: Ekib on February 19, 2009, 01:08:19 PM

Quote from: heyitsmejess on February 19, 2009, 12:50:10 PM
church audio ca-14.
under your budget, but great sounding mics

Heard good things about those indeed !
But I haven't heard a recording so far.

Go to: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,99672.0.html
and sign up to test them yourself! That's the link for the cardioids, for the CA-14 omni's go to: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,108829.0.html

While you are at it, try out his CAFS omni's: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,100201.0.html

There are links to recordings in all those threads.

colargol · « **Reply #18 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:46:28 PM »

Quote from: Belexes on February 19, 2009, 01:42:25 PM

CSB's were a good mic and it seemed when I got them in the mid-90s that it was the go-to mic for about $250 that everyone seemed to flock towards. I wanted to try the Sonic Sense DSM's, but didn't have the $. In 2004 I moved to the AT series and have not regretted it one bit and for my setup saw improved stealth recordings. Now I am on a Church Audio kick with the CA-14's. I don't think I'll ever go back to the CoreSounds. Good mics for a time, but a wealth more of and IMHO better choices on the market.

I think you might be confusing the different varieties of Core Sound mics. I used the CSB's (Core Sound Binaurals) too back in '95-'97, but then I switched to CSC (Core Sound Stealthy Cardioids), and have been using them ever since. There is in my opinion a huge difference between the two. For one I really prefer cardioids for being able to shut out some of those drunken screamers ;-). Apart from that, the CSC's give a lot less bass. In most cases I eq the bass a bit up afterwards... The CSB's sound a lot more boomy, while the CSC's might sound a bit thin to some people. For their price I would say the CSC's are a pretty good buy.

-Colargol

cybergaloot · « **Reply #19 on:** February 19, 2009, 02:49:25 PM »

Chris Church has a new model of small cardioid mics, CA-10. $79.99 per pair. He describes them as "entry level."

See: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,117446.0.html

illconditioned · « **Reply #20 on:** February 19, 2009, 03:00:48 PM »

I too recommend the Sennheiser MKE40. Very clear, detailed and warm/pleasant sound. The number one complaint with PA recording for me is clarity of vocals, and these mics work great. *If* you need a bit of bass, just bring that up with a bit of EQ. But most venues overdo the bass anyway, so I don't mind a bit of roll off. If I had to recommend a cardioid, these would be it. The Church CA-11 are good too, and about half the price, but for $250 I would get the Sennheiser. However, make sure you get these modded for loud shows. Chris Church can help you with this (probably).

Before going to cardioids, though, I would give Omnis a chance. For $150 the Church CAFS are very good. If you want a really good sounding omni, try the Countryman B3.

Clips of all above (except for CAFS) are available at http://Soundmann.com.

Richard

Belexes · « **Reply #21 on:** February 19, 2009, 03:22:53 PM »

Quote from: colargol on February 19, 2009, 02:46:28 PM

Quote from: Belexes on February 19, 2009, 01:42:25 PM
CSB's were a good mic and it seemed when I got them in the mid-90s that it was the go-to mic for about $250 that everyone seemed to flock towards. I wanted to try the Sonic Sense DSM's, but didn't have the $. In 2004 I moved to the AT series and have not regretted it one bit and for my setup saw improved stealth recordings. Now I am on a Church Audio kick with the CA-14's. I don't think I'll ever go back to the CoreSounds. Good mics for a time, but a wealth more of and IMHO better choices on the market.

I think you might be confusing the different varieties of Core Sound mics. I used the CSB's (Core Sound Binaurals) too back in '95-'97, but then I switched to CSC (Core Sound Stealthy Cardioids), and have been using them ever since. There is in my opinion a huge difference between the two. For one I really prefer cardioids for being able to shut out some of those drunken screamers ;-). Apart from that, the CSC's give a lot less bass. In most cases I eq the bass a bit up afterwards... The CSB's sound a lot more boomy, while the CSC's might sound a bit thin to some people. For their price I would say the CSC's are a pretty good buy.

-Colargol

You are right. I was just commenting on the CSB's I had. Never been a user of the CSC's.

SClassical · « **Reply #22 on:** February 19, 2009, 04:42:20 PM »

Maybe you want to consider these:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=129&item=24061

reba_103194 · « **Reply #23 on:** February 19, 2009, 06:37:06 PM »

Possible problem with the 4080's could be the freq response:

250 Hz - 17 kHz with typ. 4 dB soft boost at 4-6 kHz (-5 dB at 100 Hz)

illconditioned · « **Reply #24 on:** February 19, 2009, 09:50:28 PM »

Quote from: scyue on February 19, 2009, 04:42:20 PM

Maybe you want to consider these:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/products.aspx?c=Item&category=129&item=24061

I'd like to see it without the windscreen. It says "vertical diaphragm". I wonder if it is just the 406x with some fancy venting to make it have a cardioid response. I believe Countryman does something similar to make their omni element (B6) have directionality (E6). Don't know the details though.

Richard

ArchivalAudio · « **Reply #25 on:** February 19, 2009, 10:13:02 PM »

Milab VM-44-links
for less than $1300 a pair
at full compass
talk to Ron

peace
-- Ian

bluntforcetrauma · « **Reply #26 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:05:12 PM »

DPA 4022's

First mic owned, still going strong.

Sunday Driver · « **Reply #27 on:** February 19, 2009, 11:38:16 PM »

Quote from: reba_103194 on February 19, 2009, 06:37:06 PM

Possible problem with the 4080's could be the freq response:

250 Hz - 17 kHz with typ. 4 dB soft boost at 4-6 kHz (-5 dB at 100 Hz)

I'm still waiting (and hopeful) that DPA eventually releases the small cardioid "hanging choir" microphones that they claimed they were going to release way back when. These were proposed to have an extended frequency response and be similar in sound quality to the DPA 402x. Not that I'm holding my breath...

dactylus · « **Reply #28 on:** February 22, 2009, 10:32:58 AM »

Quote from: Sunday Driver on February 19, 2009, 11:38:16 PM

Quote from: reba_103194 on February 19, 2009, 06:37:06 PM
Possible problem with the 4080's could be the freq response:

250 Hz - 17 kHz with typ. 4 dB soft boost at 4-6 kHz (-5 dB at 100 Hz)

I'm still waiting (and hopeful) that DPA eventually releases the small cardioid "hanging choir" microphones that they claimed they were going to release way back when. These were proposed to have an extended frequency response and be similar in sound quality to the DPA 402x. Not that I'm holding my breath...

^^

I'm waiting on the same thing:

"DPA - the small cardioid "hanging choir" microphones that they claimed they were going to release way back when. These were proposed to have an extended frequency response and be similar in sound quality to the DPA 402x. "

Ekib · « **Reply #29 on:** February 23, 2009, 03:00:58 AM »

Quote from: Dede2002 on February 19, 2009, 01:58:56 PM

Quote from: Belexes on February 19, 2009, 01:42:25 PM

You stated that the MM's had too much bass. Do you mean the omni's? Some people here have complained there was not enough bass response for the cardioid, but that wasn't my experience all. I found the MM's to have a lot of detail with that Sennheiser sound.

Agreed. To my ears, the MM's cards ( HLSC-1) are great sounding mics for a nice price.

I have used the Highline mic's for a short while. It was to compare them to the Core Sound Stealthy Cardiod's ( the $ 250 ones ).
I record basically only hardrock and metal. A lot of those bands use the double bass frequently. The way they sound on the MM's is absolutely terrible. Sometimes even overloaded ( and the recordingsettings were fine ). They simply have way too much bass to handle things like double bassdrums. That's why binaural's are out of the question for me. They may work well for other music but not for what I do.
I have never had problems with my Core Sound set. They catch live music the way I like it.
Now about the lack of bass...I have made many recordings where I've had plenty of bass. It all depends on how a gig sounds like.
I feel Core Sound catches a concert the way it really sounded like.
I'm glad I did find mic's that I am totally happy about. It may not be other people's taste. But I love them and that's what it's all about.

That said I'm sure other people may like other mic's better and that's all cool. To each it's own.

Belexes · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2009, 08:04:49 AM »

I never had bass issues with the type of music I taped with the MM's. Albeit, I don't listen to much double bass stuff, but rock - hard rock. No cookie monster vocals.

This is a sample I posted back in '07 of the MM's:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y98M6N8Y

Ekib · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2009, 09:10:52 AM »

Quote from: Belexes on February 23, 2009, 08:04:49 AM

I never had bass issues with the type of music I taped with the MM's. Albeit, I don't listen to much double bass stuff, but rock - hard rock. No cookie monster vocals.

This is a sample I posted back in '07 of the MM's:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Y98M6N8Y

It wasn't at a cookie monster show I had problems with the MM's...

The biggest problem and worst recording I did was at a Rush show. The double bass just killed the recording. I know had I used Core Sound Stealthy Cardioid's it would have come out fine...

Belexes · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2009, 09:35:20 AM »

I taped Rush in an amphitheater MM's > 9100 > R-09 and it turned out fine accept for the fact I was 4th row with loud, obnoxious drunks near me. But there are other factors in terms of bass overload in terms of venue acoustics, seat location to the line array/subs, etc. so I see your point. Luckily I had a friend farther back in the venue with DSM's that night and he pulled a wonderful recording.

Sunday Driver · « **Reply #33 on:** February 24, 2009, 02:02:09 AM »

Quote from: Belexes on February 23, 2009, 09:35:20 AM

I taped Rush in an amphitheater MM's > 9100 > R-09 and it turned out fine accept for the fact I was 4th row with loud, obnoxious drunks near me. But there are other factors in terms of bass overload in terms of venue acoustics, seat location to the line array/subs, etc. so I see your point. Luckily I had a friend farther back in the venue with DSM's that night and he pulled a wonderful recording.

Ah, I very well remember that one on DIME. I didn't download the tape, but if I remember correctly in the mp3 samples, there was some low end bass distortion. I thought that was strange, since the source info said they were modded. Ah well...

Belexes · « **Reply #34 on:** February 24, 2009, 08:02:14 AM »

Quote from: Sunday Driver on February 24, 2009, 02:02:09 AM

Quote from: Belexes on February 23, 2009, 09:35:20 AM
I taped Rush in an amphitheater MM's > 9100 > R-09 and it turned out fine accept for the fact I was 4th row with loud, obnoxious drunks near me. But there are other factors in terms of bass overload in terms of venue acoustics, seat location to the line array/subs, etc. so I see your point. Luckily I had a friend farther back in the venue with DSM's that night and he pulled a wonderful recording.

Ah, I very well remember that one on DIME. I didn't download the tape, but if I remember correctly in the mp3 samples, there was some low end bass distortion. I thought that was strange, since the source info said they were modded. Ah well...

I could spit on the subs from my seat. My location wasn't ideal. The DSM DAT recording from Milwaukee is much improved.

Ekib · « **Reply #35 on:** February 24, 2009, 11:03:05 PM »

Quote from: Belexes on February 23, 2009, 09:35:20 AM

I taped Rush in an amphitheater MM's > 9100 > R-09 and it turned out fine accept for the fact I was 4th row with loud, obnoxious drunks near me. But there are other factors in terms of bass overload in terms of venue acoustics, seat location to the line array/subs, etc. so I see your point. Luckily I had a friend farther back in the venue with DSM's that night and he pulled a wonderful recording.

The bigger the place the harder to get a decent recording indeed. And that's why usually CS doesn't let me down.
The thing is MM's aren't bad mic's. The highline's are pretty good. It's just when I listen to a recording I have to put the bass way down and the treble all up. Or get an equalizer in between. They are just too much work for me.
While usually with any CS recording I just listen , and maybe at a little high or low.
That RUSH show was a nightmare. The double bass were so bad in the mix. It was nothing but reverb and very boomy. You'd expect a clear sound from a band like RUSH...

Do you use a bass roll off anyway ?

Belexes · « **Reply #36 on:** February 24, 2009, 11:45:14 PM »

Quote from: Ekib on February 24, 2009, 11:03:05 PM

Do you use a bass roll off anyway ?

None in post or while recording. I'm a bass freak and like my house to move when I play shows loud, but that's me. Everyone has their own taste when it comes to bass.

nak700s · « **Reply #37 on:** February 25, 2009, 09:48:05 AM »

Everyone is going to recommend what they use, because they think they're the best. They are not, they only sound best to them because that's what they have and that's what they're used to. I would do the same, but I won't (even though they fit your needs in every way). Instead, I will suggest you go to www.bt.etree.org and download several of the same show that was recorded with different set-ups. Although the only true test is if they all used the same recorders and were in the same spot, it will give you a better sense of the sound of the mics used than the rantings of biased users.

Remember, the mics are no good no matter what they are if you get caught and they take away the SD card, so don't compromise what you are looking for.

Ekib · « **Reply #38 on:** February 25, 2009, 10:45:44 AM »

Quote from: nak700s on February 25, 2009, 09:48:05 AM

Everyone is going to recommend what they use, because they think they're the best. They are not, they only sound best to them because that's what they have and that's what they're used to. I would do the same, but I won't (even though they fit your needs in every way). Instead, I will suggest you go to www.bt.etree.org and download several of the same show that was recorded with different set-ups. Although the only true test is if they all used the same recorders and were in the same spot, it will give you a better sense of the sound of the mics used than the rantings of biased users.

Remember, the mics are no good no matter what they are if you get caught and they take away the SD card, so don't compromise what you are looking for.

Those are my points exactly !
However , it is cool to hear people rant about their # 1 choice.
Discussion is always a cool thing.
And sometimes you can learn a thing or two ...

nak700s · « **Reply #39 on:** February 25, 2009, 08:34:50 PM »

Agreed. With that said, I am using a pair of Nakamichi CM-700's. They are perhaps the most famous scaled down mics and, in my opinion, sound awesome. My biggest problem is that I can't find anyone to scale them down for me! They have a self contained power source, so you don't need any extra equipment to run them. Just mics and the deck to plug it in to. It's a wonderful thing.

Personally, I think if you can find a pair of these, you should jump on it. If you're looking for stealth and quality, these will make you happy.

MJ · « **Reply #40 on:** February 25, 2009, 11:05:44 PM »

How about Audix M1280 (or M1290)? Maybe not ideal for stealth recording but still stealthable. Yes I own them

and love them.

M · « **Reply #41 on:** February 26, 2009, 06:23:56 PM »

Totally doable, if can smuggle the pre...and if not get an aerco.

Pretty much the same size as the at853>ca9100 setup and it smokes. I find it easier to get the right angles too.