Author Topic: mixing Copper and Silver cables.... (Read 7885 times)

yug du nord · « **on:** May 21, 2009, 05:34:12 PM »

Are there any disadvantages in using both copper and silver-clad copper in the same chain?

For example.... Canare Mini-Star Quad > pre > Darktrain silver InterConnects > deck? Or, Mini-Star Quad > Darktrain silver IC's > pre > Darktrain silver IC's > deck?

Any issues when running two different gauge cables with each other?

TIA!!!

Gutbucket · « **Reply #1 on:** May 21, 2009, 05:52:25 PM »

yug du nord · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2009, 05:55:21 PM »

^^^I'm guessing that is a joke? I'm new to silver... I wouldn't think that there would be a problem, but don't know.... is that a joke? Me not so smart.

JasonSobel · « **Reply #3 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:07:55 PM »

absolutely not a problem.

yug du nord · « **Reply #4 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:10:43 PM »

Quote from: JasonSobel on May 21, 2009, 06:07:55 PM

absolutely not a problem.

Thank you Jason!!!

Javier Cinakowski · « **Reply #5 on:** May 21, 2009, 06:27:59 PM »

I prefer to mix up my cable chemistry!

Gutbucket · « **Reply #6 on:** May 21, 2009, 07:00:57 PM »

yug du nord · « **Reply #7 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:26:50 PM »

Quote from: Gutbucket on May 21, 2009, 07:00:57 PM

yug du nord · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:27:50 PM »

Quote from: uncleyug on May 21, 2009, 05:55:21 PM

Me not so smart.

boyacrobat · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:37:46 PM »

straight silver is bright and big
but good ofc copper with it is
even warmer and phatter in bass

way to go for me

g

yug du nord · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:47:42 PM »

Quote from: boyacrobat on May 21, 2009, 11:37:46 PM

straight silver is bright and big
but good ofc copper with it is
even warmer and phatter in bass

way to go for me

g

makes sense.... didn't think of it like that. i asked because i wasn't sure if it might add some noise to the signal or something..... but didn't really consider mixing the characteristics of the two.... my window has been opened. thanks.

Stagger · « **Reply #11 on:** May 21, 2009, 11:59:08 PM »

In playback I was/am always playing with different cables, some warmer sounding (copper), some brighter and more transparent (silver). After about 5 years I am set with what is in my setup but when I was still selling playback gear for a living, this was one of the things I most advised people on it seemed. You have to have an idea of what you want your sound to be and then do some swapping in various points in the chain with different cables.

Keep in mind that cables provide the lightest of nudges toward their respective sounds. Some will claim they don't hear a difference...and that's fine. I do hear a difference but it is usually, not always, subtle. If possible I would try swapping the cable highest in the chain in a controlled setting (like taping a stereo in a quiet living room). Just swap a copper for a silver cable and see if you can tell a difference .

I know a little while back a rep at work asked me to take home a new Cardas interconnect to try out. Skalinder just happened to have stopped by to swap some gear so we gave it a go. Cardas is known for having very warm cables. We replaced my AudioQuest Jaguars DBS with the Cardas and the difference for both me (who has thousands of hours listening to the system) and Brian (who might have 10 hours total) was very apparent. The DVD-A that was playing lost all of it's top end luster and seemed overly soft and warm. Given, my playback is all tubes but you get the idea... Experiment... find out what works for you.

cfox · « **Reply #12 on:** May 22, 2009, 09:34:08 AM »

stags back!

yug du nord · « **Reply #13 on:** May 22, 2009, 02:31:03 PM »

^^^Looks like I need to start playing around with different cables a bit more..... thanks for the insight man!

ghellquist · « **Reply #14 on:** May 23, 2009, 02:01:42 PM »

Well. Beeing sceptic here.

I believe it is about impossible to do a true blind AB test and show that even a difference exists between copper and silver cables. It is mostly the placebo effect running here. I have seen audiophiles saying this and that about the fantastic differences and implying that us not hearing it are incompetent. Sort of reminds me of the story "The emperors new clothes". http://deoxy.org/emperors.htm

In my experience you will have larger difference moving the mics a foot in just about any direction (down, up, left, right) then changing between quality copper cables and quality silver. (I know, I know, there are stuff that really destroys sound, we are not talking these).

So, why not stand up to us scepticts and design a true blind AB test, invite a few good ears and do it. Maybe we sceptics can be convinced. Note that in a true AB test neither the listener nr the person doing the test knows which is which at the time the test is done. In order to be acceptable as a blind AB test you have to prove that there is a statistically significant difference. Now, this cannot be too hard really, every licensed drug sold in your pharmacy can pass this test and there are thousands of those.

// Gunnar

Lil Kim Jong-Il · « **Reply #15 on:** May 23, 2009, 02:54:24 PM »

Quote from: ghellquist on May 23, 2009, 02:01:42 PM

So, why not stand up to us scepticts and design a true blind AB test, invite a few good ears and do it. Maybe we sceptics can be convinced.

I have offered a demonstration on my home system on many occasions. To date the number of takers: zero.

One of our vocal sceptics here was offered some very expensive cables to try and he made 10 different excuses for why he would not do an AB in his home rig.

While I appreciate the value of double blind testing, I think you know that can't happen. Given the physical properties of the test environment there is no way to swap cables without the person doing the swapping having an idea of which cable is installed at any given time. There are ways to minimize the interaction between the person listening and the person swapping cables, but when such a situation is suggested the cable sceptics seem to suddenly become true believers in the powers of mind reading.

ghellquist · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2009, 01:24:12 AM »

I agree it is difficult. But then, look at the typical home session.

"You know I have these superduper extra expensive cables here that I really feel gives a much tighter feeling to the whole rythm session. Listen for yourself and you will hear it"

Errors:
1 - you tell the listener what he is supposed to hear
2 - you give the listener only one chance to hear the change or even none
3 - you as test designer will be disappointed if the person does not hear what you want him to hear

and so on.

Try this instead.

1 - make sure the listener cannot see which cable is beeing used. Screen, behind the boxes, whatever.
2 - write 10 small paper pieces with A on them and 10 with B on fold, fold them and put them in a jar.
3 - disconnect both cables.
4 - draw a paper from the jar (A or B) and connect the corresponding cable. Again so that the listener cannot see. Note out of sight for the listener which it was.
5 - play the same song (maximum first 30 seconds or so)
6 - ask the listener to keep a protocol for the difference between this listening and the previous: better / same / worse.
7 - repeat at least 7 times, preferrably more.

After the test has been done it is possible to apply statistical principles to the results obtained. Look at the change form A to B (as example) if this happened four times and the listener answered 2 times better and 2 times worse we are talking pure chance. Not much difference really with 3 to 1 as this could be pure chance again. In order to get a valid result we need a larger sample or a 4 to zero score.

If you want to make the test even better, invite a sceptic like me to conduct the test and several people to listen and hidden to each other keep the protocol. Next time I am around your part of the world I volunteer.

Remember that bias happens every time we as humans are asked to compare things. This is proved again and again and again in science and in practical tests in marketing.

// Gunnar

ghellquist · « **Reply #17 on:** May 24, 2009, 03:11:16 AM »

By the way - I am completely convinced that you are perceiving a difference. This is not the question. Obviously you find it worth the work and money to go down a certain path. The good thing is that it gives you satisfaction.

The question is whether there is any "provable" difference applying to other individuals or to different circumstances. My firm belief is that if there is a difference (silver or copper) it is too tiny to be noticed in any normal usage. To me then it is better to spend time and money on the things that gives the large differences. Among these are mic choices, mic setup and placement and acoustical treatment of listening rooms. As an example, I have visited people spending a lot on their sound systems running them in rooms with concrete walls and roof and completely without acoustical treatment, having flutter echoes going on for more than a second. I know where I would put the effort in those cases and it would not be on any part of the listening equipment.

// Gunnar

Stagger · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2009, 01:40:02 PM »

For the skeptics, in the event above, I was not swapping a super expensive cable for a cheap one. The rep asked me to take it home because the price was about the same as my cables. Also I don't recall telling Brian what cable was what. I just swapped them and said, "what do you like better and what are you hearing?" The placebo effect would tend to favor the new "better" cable if you don't know a thing about them but, in this case, we both preferred the original cable. This wasn't something we made up in our heads. There was an easily detectable difference, akin to swapping tubes of the same type but different make. The entire tonal structure was different. You have to actually try an A/B comp (even better if it is a blind comp) with decent equipment before you convince yourself that there is no possible difference.

rokpunk · « **Reply #19 on:** May 30, 2009, 01:04:06 AM »

yeah, but have these new cables been "burned in".......

/sarcasm mode off