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Offline H₂O

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ALAC Now Open Source
« on: October 28, 2011, 12:47:43 PM »
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/10/27/apples-lossless-audio-codec-alac-now-open-source/

I wonder how this will affect FLAC - I can't see ALAC supplanting FLAC
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Offline 12milluz

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 01:42:36 PM »
I was excited to see this. Right now I have an iPod video, with Rockbox. Problem is, I hate the GUI of Rockbox, so I only use it for my recordings, and I use the regular iPod firmware for the rest of my music. It's a pain to have to restart the iPod when I want to change. Hopefully I can convert these FLACs to ALACs for my iPod.
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Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 01:51:47 PM »
dbpoweramp will convert FLAC to ALAC now, no need to wait.
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 05:06:07 PM »
I wonder how this will affect FLAC - I can't see ALAC supplanting FLAC

Personally, I don't either.  I think FLAC is too entrenched in the community.  APE never really caught on and nobody encodes to SHN anymore either.  It's nice that ALAC has been made open-sourced (probably a marketing move on Apple's part) but does it really offer anything that FLAC doesn't already have aside from a fan base that loves Apple and its products?  If I'm missing something regarding the format, please let me know.

Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 05:14:47 PM »
I am a big fan of open source anything and I don't know why this wasn't released as open source originally.
Hopefully the average digital music person will understand how much mp3s suck.

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 05:18:27 PM »
I wonder how this will affect FLAC - I can't see ALAC supplanting FLAC

Personally, I don't either.  I think FLAC is too entrenched in the community.  APE never really caught on and nobody encodes to SHN anymore either.  It's nice that ALAC has been made open-sourced (probably a marketing move on Apple's part) but does it really offer anything that FLAC doesn't already have aside from a fan base that loves Apple and its products?  If I'm missing something regarding the format, please let me know.
I think this is really a win-win for the lossless community.  With increased data speeds there is a chance people will start wanting the larger "lossless" files.  I'm sticking with FLAC (all of my live masters are as such, all of my CD rips are as such and my live downloads are as well). 

Hopefully this might get record labels to wisen up.  My buddy and I were talking about the whole "remastered in 24-bit stamp on CD's but it's pointless as they're sold on a 16-bit, archaic platform.  I can record 24/96 if I want but can't get my music in 24/48... ack.  Maybe this will help spur a change.

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 05:19:30 PM »
I"d be much happier if Apple joined the 21st century and supported FLAC natively. I use Apple Lossless as it's so convenient. My iPod Touch likes it, my wife's 160 gb iPod Classic likes it, my son's iPod likes it, and I can control iTunes from my iPod Touch and use it around the house through my pc > stereo connection.

Haven't found a music player that supports gapless playback of FLAC that works as well in as many situations. So, I encode and archive as FLAC, but end up making ALAC copies of the stuff I really like.
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Offline Todd R

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 06:07:56 PM »
I wonder how this will affect FLAC - I can't see ALAC supplanting FLAC

Personally, I don't either.  I think FLAC is too entrenched in the community.  APE never really caught on and nobody encodes to SHN anymore either.  It's nice that ALAC has been made open-sourced (probably a marketing move on Apple's part) but does it really offer anything that FLAC doesn't already have aside from a fan base that loves access to Apple and its products?  If I'm missing something regarding the format, please let me know.

Well I think you've somewhat hit the nail on the head -- ALAC offers the ability to be played on Apple devices, which FLAC cannot. 

So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.  Among my other Apple computers and gadgets, I've got an ipad, ipod classic, and ipod touch.  It'll be nice to have more apps and support for playing and creating ALAC files for these devices since FLAC isn't an (easy) option for them.  (Yes, I recognize that integrating FLAC into their products might have been a better option, but for whatever reason, that is not on the table.)
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 06:18:30 PM »
So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.  ot on the table.)
Umm... I think this is one of the reasons I own no iPod, no iPhone and no iPad.  The day Apple wises up completely and supports FLAC natively, as many others have (including my Android phone), I might consider buying their products.  But until that day happens, I'm glad to avoid using them.  :)

Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 06:46:25 PM »
Well I think you've somewhat hit the nail on the head -- ALAC offers the ability to be played on Apple devices, which FLAC cannot. 

So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.  Among my other Apple computers and gadgets, I've got an ipad, ipod classic, and ipod touch.  It'll be nice to have more apps and support for playing and creating ALAC files for these devices since FLAC isn't an (easy) option for them.  (Yes, I recognize that integrating FLAC into their products might have been a better option, but for whatever reason, that is not on the table.)

http://androidandme.com/2011/10/news/the-lawsuits-are-about-to-get-uglier-apple-wins-patent-on-slide-to-unlock/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/vendetta-steve-jobs-vowed-to-spend-last-dying-breath-going-thermonuclear-war-on-google/

So they decided to release one thing as open source and obtain a patent on something that shouldn't have a patent and want to destroy a competitor.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2011, 06:47:57 PM by rastasean »
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Offline H₂O

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2011, 07:06:11 PM »
It's true that the patent system in the US is broken. 
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Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2011, 09:32:30 PM »
It's true that the patent system in the US is broken.

I think that is an understatement. ;)
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2011, 10:32:49 PM »
So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.  Among my other Apple computers and gadgets, I've got an ipad, ipod classic, and ipod touch.  It'll be nice to have more apps and support for playing and creating ALAC files for these devices since FLAC isn't an (easy) option for them.  (Yes, I recognize that integrating FLAC into their products might have been a better option, but for whatever reason, that is not on the table.)

was there no way to convert to ALAC on windows before yesterday?  I ask because I don't know the answer...not trying to come off as combative or anything.  It's been easy to do on OS X for a while now, so as a mac user, this news doesn't really mean anything for me.  Just wondering if it wasn't a common thing on windows

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2011, 11:16:05 PM »
was there no way to convert to ALAC on windows before yesterday?  I ask because I don't know the answer...not trying to come off as combative or anything.  It's been easy to do on OS X for a while now, so as a mac user, this news doesn't really mean anything for me.  Just wondering if it wasn't a common thing on windows
There have been ways (such as using Foobar2000) before yesterday. I think we're talking more about the long(er)-term impact of Apple doing this and that maybe consumers will wake up and start downloading lossless audio over crappy MP3s.

Offline ScoobieKW

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2011, 12:32:02 AM »
So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.  Among my other Apple computers and gadgets, I've got an ipad, ipod classic, and ipod touch.  It'll be nice to have more apps and support for playing and creating ALAC files for these devices since FLAC isn't an (easy) option for them.  (Yes, I recognize that integrating FLAC into their products might have been a better option, but for whatever reason, that is not on the table.)

was there no way to convert to ALAC on windows before yesterday?  I ask because I don't know the answer...not trying to come off as combative or anything.  It's been easy to do on OS X for a while now, so as a mac user, this news doesn't really mean anything for me.  Just wondering if it wasn't a common thing on windows

dbpoweramp will do it with the free version
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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2011, 12:56:15 PM »
So I'm happy to see this not because of fanboy love for Apple, but because I own Apple products.  If Apple won't integrate FLAC into their devices, this is the next best thing I guess.

I hear you.  "Something" is better than nothing, as the saying goes.

Umm... I think this is one of the reasons I own no iPod, no iPhone and no iPad.  The day Apple wises up completely and supports FLAC natively, as many others have (including my Android phone), I might consider buying their products.  But until that day happens, I'm glad to avoid using them.  :)

Agreed, lol.  The best way a consumer can speak is with their wallet. 

On another note, I remember reading a while back that ALAC only supports up to 16-bit/44.1.  Anyone know if this is actually the case?

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2011, 02:06:04 PM »
Does anyone know the patent/IP issues?

For example, can a company produce software that decodes ALAC?  Encodes ALAC?

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2011, 04:56:26 PM »
Does anyone know the patent/IP issues?

For example, can a company produce software that decodes ALAC?  Encodes ALAC?

  Richard

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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2011, 05:27:44 PM »
Does anyone know the patent/IP issues?

For example, can a company produce software that decodes ALAC?  Encodes ALAC?

  Richard

I have an old (2+ years) copy of Easy CD-DA Extractor and it can encode and decode ALAC.  It's a "paid" program so I'm guessing they give some money to Apple for the privilege of using the technology.

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2011, 10:34:42 PM »

On another note, I remember reading a while back that ALAC only supports up to 16-bit/44.1.  Anyone know if this is actually the case?

definitely not the case

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #20 on: October 30, 2011, 09:46:39 AM »
ALAC supports up to 24/192. The codex had been reverse engineered more than 7 years ago. XLD for OSX can convert to and from ALAC to anything else (FLAC, MP3).

There is one advantage to ALAC. It seems to draw less power than FLAC making for slightly better battery life. However, file size is slightly larger than FLAC.

Both are 100% lossless. If you hear a difference between FLAC, ALAC, WAV, and AIFF- your computer is broken.
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #21 on: October 30, 2011, 10:30:40 PM »
XLD for OSX can convert to and from ALAC to anything else (FLAC, MP3).

xACT, too. 

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2011, 11:37:44 PM »
ALAC supports up to 24/192

Now we just need TLH to incorporate ALAC and we'll be set!

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Offline Fried Chicken Boy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2011, 02:51:59 PM »
Now we just need TLH to incorporate ALAC and we'll be set!

Terry

Or not. ;)  It wouldn't be a bad thing to have that functionality in TLH.  Just speaking for myself, I don't have any reason to start using ALAC and don't see that changing any time soon.

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2011, 03:05:28 PM »
ALAC supports up to 24/192

Now we just need TLH to incorporate ALAC and we'll be set!

Terry

That's kind of what I'm hoping -- TLH or whatever people are using.  Pretty much everything I'd play music on (meaning 2 different squeezeboxes and a variety of apple products) play ALAC files, and moving towards ALAC would make things much easier on me.

I'm very close to bailing on FLAC and going to ALAC, the one downside is sharing shows.  If there are more converters out there for people to convert ALAC to whatever they use, maybe the Archive and torrent sites will start accepting ALAC files.

It certainly would be nice to only process one fileset, instead of needing to process 24bit ALAC, 24bit FLAC, and 16bit FLAC (and usually for myself 320kbs mp3's, or potentially AAC files). 
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2011, 03:48:38 PM »
Just what we need another friggen codec that other more established codecs already do and most do better.   

FLAC is becoming entrenched finally.  More and more devices are supporting it.  More and more artists and record labels are supporting it.    The previous anti-digital/internet Beatles released their entire catalog in 24bit FLAC for chrissakes.

If you've got an iPod then Rockbox it.  If you have an iPhone then jailbreak it.  Both processes ARE reversible to stock factory OS and settings and they are LEGAL TO DO.    Both will allow you to play FLAC's of various bit rates.

Companies or organizations needing to pimp ALAC, WavPack or Monkey's Audio just sucks when there are already equal and better solution out there.    Hey let's confuse consumers even more.  No thanks!     

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2011, 03:54:39 PM »
i would have bet 1 million bucks that you'd eventually type that response :)

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2011, 04:10:27 PM »
i would have bet 1 million bucks that you'd eventually type that response :)

I mean no company affiliation or company disrespect but I fail to see what ALAC brings to the table other than native iOS support.   As with the other codecs I mentioned (wavpack, monkey, etc) what is the benefit?   

Scoot you're obviously someone who has worked with codecs similar to FLAC.   What benefit do you see in the others?  What does ALAC bring to the table (besides the aformentioned iOS support)?

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #28 on: October 31, 2011, 04:17:59 PM »
Some formats offer features that I'd never use (ridiculously high sample rate format, bit depth or number of channels, for instance)

scroll down to "Technical Details of Lossless Audio Compression Formats"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_codecs#Technical_details

(edited for typo)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2011, 04:36:15 PM by scb »

Offline jibooer

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #29 on: October 31, 2011, 04:32:56 PM »
I like the idea of finally open-sourcing their proprietory products...the end-user should have a say in how they listen to their music after all.

However, I agree with most that having to convert your files really is a drag, and honestly I rather just throw the files on the device and be done with it, 24-bit or 16-bit. To this end, my solution thus far has been  the Aceplayer app which allows me to play flacs from Foobar running on my media server, albeit 16-bit only, but for an iphone and earphones, it is sufficient. The other alternative I have discovered is the FLAC player app: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/flac-player/id390532592?mt=8.  Any cds that I rip to iTunes are always ALAC for convenience sake.

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2011, 05:14:29 PM »
Some formats offer features that I'd never use (ridiculously high sample rate format, but depth or number of channels, for instance)

scroll down to "Technical Details of Lossless Audio Compression Formats"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_audio_codecs#Technical_details

From the wikipedia page only, the difference seems negligible between ALAC and FLAC with the primary difference of the wikipedia link being FLAC's ability to handle 8bit audio as well as a higher sample rate.    Looking further into the two formats the power consumption comment from an earlier post is just rubbish.  Additionally FLAC outperforms ALAC both in encoding and decoding speeds.  FLAC also provides error handling of which ALAC appears to not have.   FLAC supports a wider range of tags while ALAC appears locked into QT tags.   FLAC has embedded MD5 hashes for integrity checking and supports embedded cue sheets.  ALAC does not.

The greater question is why?   Why push a product that technically is redundant.  What motivation does a company have to use and require a redundant proprietary codec?   You guessed it, the almighty $$$     If you want ALAC files you have to get them through iTunes.   Sony did the same with ATRAC.  Want an ATRAC minidisc?  Sony is getting a cut.  And history shows that ATRAC was not in any way a superior or friendly codec.   How soon before we have GLAC from Google?

Imagine how much easier the path to high quality audio for the masses would be if we were able to cut out alot of of the redundant codecs?   ALAC, OGG, WMAL, APE.   Those formats should have gone the way of SHN and just all but disappear.  Look at what the pseudo-standarization of mp3 did.   It allowed at the time a codec with many distribution similarities to FLAC today to become a household term.   When the iPod came out they supported multiple formats.  With the advent of the iTunes Store now you can only get AAC.  Fuck me.  Luckily they still allow you to import mp3's.  Now to listen to the music I pay for I have to buy a second copy in a different format if I want to take it anywhere else because only the iPod plays AAC files.   I fail to see where the betterment for the consumer lies there.

Then again with ALAC I realize what the truth is.  Apple needs to dominate the revenue stream and ALAC allows that to happen, same with Microsoft and WMAL.   In the end we all lose out because these are all just containers of the same ones and zeros but someone letting the consumer listen to the music they paid for only on devices the the manufacturer deems appropiate again just sucks. 

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #31 on: October 31, 2011, 05:25:18 PM »
The other alternative I have discovered is the FLAC player app: http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/flac-player/id390532592?mt=8.

It's nice that it works but I find it ridiculous that you have to pay to be able to play a music file using a free and open-source music codec on any media player.

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #32 on: October 31, 2011, 05:27:29 PM »
What motivation does a company have to use and require a redundant proprietary codec?   You guessed it, the almighty $$$     If you want ALAC files you have to get them through iTunes.

Huh? I would think the first motivation to use their own codec was simply "we don't want to rely on anyone else for codec support or updates."  As far as I know, Apple has never sold anything in Apple Lossless format.

Also, AAC is an ISO standard.  It's not just an iTunes or Quicktime thing.  Maybe if flac was an ISO standard, they'd have supported that a long time ago.  Same goes with ogg, etc. 


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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2011, 05:43:04 PM »
Thinking that they are using AAC because its a standard is a bit shortsighted.  Same with WMA.  Both are DRM-able containers.  I fail to see a reason for either of those codecs other that for the DRM attached to them.   

Look I am not trying to turn this into a brand war.   I could give two shits if ALAC was from Apple, Microsoft or Starbucks.  In the end it is a redundant lossless container that is used to force the format on customers of certain products with no real reason other than $$$.   While Apple may not currently sell ALAC files doesn't mean they won't and doesn't mean that that format and the way Apple uses it is consumer friendly.  Because its not.     

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2011, 06:04:34 PM »
Well.. we all know the greatest thing about standards is that there are so many of them!  :P

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2011, 06:57:22 PM »
Thinking that they are using AAC because its a standard is a bit shortsighted.  Same with WMA.  Both are DRM-able containers.  I fail to see a reason for either of those codecs other that for the DRM attached to them.   

AAC sounds better than mp3


Look I am not trying to turn this into a brand war.   I could give two shits if ALAC was from Apple, Microsoft or Starbucks.  In the end it is a redundant lossless container that is used to force the format on customers of certain products with no real reason other than $$$.   While Apple may not currently sell ALAC files doesn't mean they won't and doesn't mean that that format and the way Apple uses it is consumer friendly.  Because its not.     

Again, if there was a standardized lossless format, maybe Apple would have used that.  Again, they haven't made a dime off of Apple Lossless.  It's not just a format they've added as an option in their players to lock consumers in.  iTunes has been using it to stream music (now called airplay) to Apple TVs and Airport Express units for years.  They probably used it because they wanted to control their own non-standard format instead of relying on someone else for another non-standard format.  You might think that choice is dumb, but I think that's all there is to it. I'm not sure why that makes it about money. 

Offline hi and lo

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2011, 07:45:52 PM »
Thinking that they are using AAC because its a standard is a bit shortsighted.  Same with WMA.  Both are DRM-able containers.  I fail to see a reason for either of those codecs other that for the DRM attached to them.   

AAC sounds better than mp3


Look I am not trying to turn this into a brand war.   I could give two shits if ALAC was from Apple, Microsoft or Starbucks.  In the end it is a redundant lossless container that is used to force the format on customers of certain products with no real reason other than $$$.   While Apple may not currently sell ALAC files doesn't mean they won't and doesn't mean that that format and the way Apple uses it is consumer friendly.  Because its not.     

Again, if there was a standardized lossless format, maybe Apple would have used that.  Again, they haven't made a dime off of Apple Lossless.  It's not just a format they've added as an option in their players to lock consumers in.  iTunes has been using it to stream music (now called airplay) to Apple TVs and Airport Express units for years.  They probably used it because they wanted to control their own non-standard format instead of relying on someone else for another non-standard format.  You might think that choice is dumb, but I think that's all there is to it. I'm not sure why that makes it about money.

I don't disagree with you about stability reasons for Apple to use ALAC for their products over FLAC, but when they've refused to support an extremely stable and popular format it makes one question their motives. It could have been easy to support FLAC years ago (and remains as easy today), yet they still refuse. FLAC is not some flash in the pan codec and supporting it would bring minimal, if any, risk and probably a very low development cost.

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2011, 08:38:14 PM »

I don't disagree with you about stability reasons for Apple to use ALAC for their products over FLAC, but when they've refused to support an extremely stable and popular format it makes one question their motives. It could have been easy to support FLAC years ago (and remains as easy today), yet they still refuse. FLAC is not some flash in the pan codec and supporting it would bring minimal, if any, risk and probably a very low development cost.

I don't disagree that they could have supported flac very easily and that there's no real reason not to.  But it is pretty consistent with Apple's format decisions over the years.  No native ogg, divx, wma, flac, real player, etc.  They support standardized formats or they create their own.  So while I may not like it, I don't really expect them to do anything else since that's what they've been doing for years.

Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2011, 10:53:07 PM »

I don't disagree with you about stability reasons for Apple to use ALAC for their products over FLAC, but when they've refused to support an extremely stable and popular format it makes one question their motives. It could have been easy to support FLAC years ago (and remains as easy today), yet they still refuse. FLAC is not some flash in the pan codec and supporting it would bring minimal, if any, risk and probably a very low development cost.

I don't disagree that they could have supported flac very easily and that there's no real reason not to.  But it is pretty consistent with Apple's format decisions over the years.  No native ogg, divx, wma, flac, real player, etc.  They support standardized formats or they create their own.  So while I may not like it, I don't really expect them to do anything else since that's what they've been doing for years.

Consistent not to support a codec that is open source and easy to use? Hell it is possible if apple supported FLAC,  we could have a new version and FLAC lovers would be pleased. Standards would not change the way apple handles FLAC. Perhaps one reason they made this (alac) open source was to see if fewer people would jailbreak their phone and use this silly format. Open source generally means different developers will work on the project and make it better and/or support in ways not possible before. Does anybody foresee developers doing that over this new change by making this open source or will the use of flac continue to rise? Will bands now also release ALAC recordings alongside FLAC?
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2011, 11:14:44 PM »
Consistent not to support a codec that is open source and easy to use?

Actually, yes.  That's the way they've been doing it. 


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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2011, 11:32:30 PM »
Well... it is Apple. It's not like they've ever been a company to adhere to industry standards. God knows it would kill them to have just used mini usb rather than their ridiculous ipod connector.

Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2011, 11:52:45 PM »
Well... it is Apple. It's not like they've ever been a company to adhere to industry standards. God knows it would kill them to have just used mini usb rather than their ridiculous ipod connector.

oh, yeah speaking of proprietary... whytf do the laptops not use a standard DVI video input on their laptops? IF there were no third party making these connections, this would be called vendor lock in, but instead we can call it apple ripping off the customer by providing an official apple $30 display port adapter and not telling the customer about the $6 alternative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Display_Connector
The Apple Display Connector (ADC) is a proprietary modification of the DVI connector that combines analog and digital video signals, USB, and power all in one cable. Apple used ADC for its LCD-based Apple Cinema Displays and their final CRT displays, before deciding to use standard DVI connectors on later models.
First implemented in the July 2000 Power Mac G4 and G4 Cube, ADC disappeared from displays in June 2004 when Apple introduced the aluminum-clad 20", 23", and 30" Apple Cinema Displays, which feature separate DVI, USB and FireWire connectors, and their own power supplies. The ADC was still standard on the Power Mac G5 until April 2005, when new models meant the only remaining Apple product with an ADC interface was the single processor Power Mac G5 introduced in October 2004. This single processor Power Mac G5 was discontinued soon after in June 2005.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
The Digital Visual Interface (DVI) is a video interface standard covering the transmission of video between a source device (such as a personal computer) and a display device.

emphasis mine.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB570Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 08:33:23 AM by rastasean »
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Offline Todd R

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2011, 03:16:35 AM »
Why push a product that technically is redundant. 

Yep, having choice in America is stupid.  Thats it, from now on there shall be no car companies but Ford.  In the grand scheme of things all other companies are technically redundant, no need for them. 

Sorry, but i dont want to rockbox my ipod, and last i knew they had no rockbox for my model anyway. and I don't have an iphone.  But i do want to stream music to my playback system using Airplay to an Apple Airport express, and control my music remotely using an ipad.  All this is done seemlessly with itunes, which doesn't support flac, at least not that I'm aware of for the application above.

So ALAC is a product available to me, and I'd like to use it.  You can feel free to use Flac, and if therenis no more room in your worldview to share music using any other codec than Flac, then I'll probably just stop sharing music.  No skin off my back, I've got a taping rig.

I will never understand why the powers that be always want to make it more difficult for tapers to share music.  Personally though, I've has about enough.  I'm going to share it on my terms in a way that suits how i want to organize my life, or not at all.
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2011, 07:55:25 AM »
oh, yeah speaking of proprietary... whytf do the laptops not use a standard DVI video input on their laptops? IF there were no third party making these connections, this would be called vendor lock in, but instead we can call it apple ripping off the customer by providing an official apple $30 display port adapter and not telling the customer about the $6 alternative.

Displayport is a standard, supporting audio as well as video, designed to replace DVI and VGA.

Alos, I'm sure Dell offers video adapters.  Do they tell their customers that Monoprice will almost always have much cheaper prices? 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Display_Connector
The Apple Display Connector (ADC) is a proprietary modification of the DVI connector that combines analog and digital video signals...

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
The Digital Visual Interface (DVI) is a video interface standard covering the transmission of video between a source device (such as a personal computer) and a display device.

emphasis mine.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB570Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ

When you copied and pasted from wikipedia, you failed to include the whole sentence about adc:

The Apple Display Connector (ADC) is a proprietary modification of the DVI connector that combines analog and digital video signals, USB, and power all in one cable

That answers your question.  They didn't just use a proprietary modification of the cable for video.  The combined video, power and usb into 1 cable.  It never caught on and was a pain in the ass, but there was some reason for it other than "hey, lets design a connector to piss people off"

 

Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2011, 08:32:46 AM »
Corrected. ^^

So if Apple can make something useful they are problem solvers even if their solution is proprietary.

This discussion,  with the help of primarily me, has turned into a defense of apple for scb and that was not the purpose of this thread. Apple will do what they want and this thread won't change their mind with the way they design their products.

Continue on... :)
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2011, 08:53:34 AM »
Corrected. ^^

So if Apple can make something useful they are problem solvers even if their solution is proprietary.


Maybe I'm just an idiot, but wouldn't any "solution" by definition be proprietary?  Wouldn't that be the whole point?  If some company said "this connector doesn't do what we want, there's isn't anything that exists that does what we want, so we'll combine the things we want it to do into 1 connector that takes up less space," wouldn't that always be a proprietary solution?  Sometimes it's a good idea that catches on and sometimes it's not. ADC was not. 

This discussion,  with the help of primarily me, has turned into a defense of apple for scb and that was not the purpose of this thread. Apple will do what they want and this thread won't change their mind with the way they design their products.

I'm not trying to defend Apple.  What's going on is the usual people trying to find fault with everything they do.  I'm just giving facts or reasons behind certain things.

I'd rather have a Displayport on my laptop than a DVI port.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I'd rather have a firewire port on my laptop than an extra USB port so I can connect to to my Sound Devices box.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I like that Apple laptops have a combined analog and optical out jack. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I wish I had a "Thunderbolt" port on my laptop.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I use flac, but can understand why people might use Monkey's audio, wavpack, or Apple Lossless and won't complain that there are choices out there other than flac. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I actually like the iPhone. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I prefer the sound of AAC to MP3. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2011, 02:13:16 PM »
Well... it is Apple. It's not like they've ever been a company to adhere to industry standards. God knows it would kill them to have just used mini usb rather than their ridiculous ipod connector.

oh, yeah speaking of proprietary... whytf do the laptops not use a standard DVI video input on their laptops? IF there were no third party making these connections, this would be called vendor lock in, but instead we can call it apple ripping off the customer by providing an official apple $30 display port adapter and not telling the customer about the $6 alternative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Display_Connector
The Apple Display Connector (ADC) is a proprietary modification of the DVI connector that combines analog and digital video signals, USB, and power all in one cable. Apple used ADC for its LCD-based Apple Cinema Displays and their final CRT displays, before deciding to use standard DVI connectors on later models.
First implemented in the July 2000 Power Mac G4 and G4 Cube, ADC disappeared from displays in June 2004 when Apple introduced the aluminum-clad 20", 23", and 30" Apple Cinema Displays, which feature separate DVI, USB and FireWire connectors, and their own power supplies. The ADC was still standard on the Power Mac G5 until April 2005, when new models meant the only remaining Apple product with an ADC interface was the single processor Power Mac G5 introduced in October 2004. This single processor Power Mac G5 was discontinued soon after in June 2005.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
The Digital Visual Interface (DVI) is a video interface standard covering the transmission of video between a source device (such as a personal computer) and a display device.

emphasis mine.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB570Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ

ALL of the computers that had an ADC port also had alternate port as well.  Some had VGA, some later models had DVI.  So the consumer had a choice.  If you bought an Apple display, you got one cable for power, video and a built in USB hub.  Pretty slick.  Pretty gorgeous.  But you weren't forced to choose that.  I think maybe you are mistaken on that one that there was a forced issue.

As for the MiniDisplay Port connector, it only makes sense for them to use that in their thin laptops.  There simply isn't room for other, larger ports.  Apple developed this port, and licenses it FOR FREE.

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2011, 02:26:02 PM »
There have been several references in this thread about Apple creating ALAC purely for profit or that their motives were for profit.

Perhaps there has been some misinformation about Apple out there.  But understand this; they are a FOR PROFIT company.

That said, I can imagine a time when Apple perhaps thought that they'd be able to offer ALAC as a means of getting better quality music on their store, and needed a DRM means of doing that.  But, Apple was never pro DRM.  Google Steve Jobs' open letter about DRM if you want to understand why they did what they did with AAC/DRM.  Anyway, perhaps the studios never let them move into lossless territory and so then they simply had a codec with no real home.  I just don't get the sense that it was created for any other grand scheme of locking people in, especially since it was never used, as far as I know, to make them one single penny.

BTW-I'm not a fan of Phish, but I know they've offered ALAC as a choice, alongside FLAC, for some time.  OMG!  Choice!

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Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2011, 04:31:55 PM »
Well... it is Apple. It's not like they've ever been a company to adhere to industry standards. God knows it would kill them to have just used mini usb rather than their ridiculous ipod connector.

oh, yeah speaking of proprietary... whytf do the laptops not use a standard DVI video input on their laptops? IF there were no third party making these connections, this would be called vendor lock in, but instead we can call it apple ripping off the customer by providing an official apple $30 display port adapter and not telling the customer about the $6 alternative.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Display_Connector
The Apple Display Connector (ADC) is a proprietary modification of the DVI connector that combines analog and digital video signals, USB, and power all in one cable. Apple used ADC for its LCD-based Apple Cinema Displays and their final CRT displays, before deciding to use standard DVI connectors on later models.
First implemented in the July 2000 Power Mac G4 and G4 Cube, ADC disappeared from displays in June 2004 when Apple introduced the aluminum-clad 20", 23", and 30" Apple Cinema Displays, which feature separate DVI, USB and FireWire connectors, and their own power supplies. The ADC was still standard on the Power Mac G5 until April 2005, when new models meant the only remaining Apple product with an ADC interface was the single processor Power Mac G5 introduced in October 2004. This single processor Power Mac G5 was discontinued soon after in June 2005.


 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Visual_Interface
The Digital Visual Interface (DVI) is a video interface standard covering the transmission of video between a source device (such as a personal computer) and a display device.

emphasis mine.

http://store.apple.com/us/product/MB570Z/A?fnode=MTY1NDA5OQ

ALL of the computers that had an ADC port also had alternate port as well.  Some had VGA, some later models had DVI.  So the consumer had a choice.  If you bought an Apple display, you got one cable for power, video and a built in USB hub.  Pretty slick.  Pretty gorgeous.  But you weren't forced to choose that.  I think maybe you are mistaken on that one that there was a forced issue.

As for the MiniDisplay Port connector, it only makes sense for them to use that in their thin laptops.  There simply isn't room for other, larger ports.  Apple developed this port, and licenses it FOR FREE.

my girlfriends laptop does not have anything other than the apple connection but I bought an adapter at monoprice for $5-6.
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Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2011, 06:53:15 PM »

[/quote]

my girlfriends laptop does not have anything other than the apple connection but I bought an adapter at monoprice for $5-6.
[/quote]

Correct.  I was responding to your link about a connector that was discontinued over 6year ago, and never applied to a laptop.  In fact, back then, Apple did offer a DVI port on laptops, while the rest majority of the wintel laptops offered only VGA.  But then they moved forward.

Fast forward to modern times, and you see that Apple offers a MiniDisplayPort across it's entire product line.  This port offers video AND audio, unlike the DVI port you lament missing.  Further, it allows systems like the MacBook Air to exist, as they simply aren't large enough for a DVI port.  The new Thunderbolt port offers further expansion from that same port.

Apple licenses that MiniDisplayPort to others, for free, allowing you to purchase, at your choice, a third party version inexpensively.

I'm not sure why you feel Apple is obligated to tell you about third party accessories instead of their own, but since Apple doesn't license axes, you are free to grind your own.

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2011, 09:47:18 PM »
XLD for OSX can convert to and from ALAC to anything else (FLAC, MP3).

xACT, too.

Been converting FLAC>ALAC for my Classic playlists (complete shows) via xACT for sometime now. 

An extra step but I have no issues at all.
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2011, 09:50:08 PM »

I'm not trying to defend Apple.  What's going on is the usual people trying to find fault with everything they do.  I'm just giving facts or reasons behind certain things.

I'd rather have a Displayport on my laptop than a DVI port.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I'd rather have a firewire port on my laptop than an extra USB port so I can connect to to my Sound Devices box.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I like that Apple laptops have a combined analog and optical out jack. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I wish I had a "Thunderbolt" port on my laptop.  That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I use flac, but can understand why people might use Monkey's audio, wavpack, or Apple Lossless and won't complain that there are choices out there other than flac. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I actually like the iPhone. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.
I prefer the sound of AAC to MP3. That doesn't mean I'm defending Apple.

Well said Scott.  I concur from experience on all of the above.
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Offline rastasean

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #52 on: November 01, 2011, 10:25:50 PM »
I have to say that thunderbolt seems pretty exciting since it could outperform the extremely expensive iscsi and hopefully make SAN storage a little less expensive, although you can't completely/directly compare the two.
Other good news: http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=OTgyMQ

however none of this matters to me until hard drive prices drop but I don't think that will happen for awhile. The Thai people need to try to restore their lives before worrying about the american hard drive need.
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2011, 08:05:27 AM »
 I like that thunderbolt can support both USB and firewire adapters (though no one actually makes them yet).  so at least firewire support won't disappear even if firewire ports do

Offline H₂O

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #54 on: November 02, 2011, 08:36:40 AM »
Isn't thunderbolt pretty much a single lane PCIe "port" (I guess in addition to mini display port leads) - meaning it can pretty much support anything as long as you build an adapter for it.  I read of a company who is already testing a Thunderbolt dock that houses an external PCIe slot with a high end Graphics card installed.

 
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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #55 on: November 02, 2011, 08:53:06 AM »
basically PCI express + displayport, yes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolt_%28interface%29

Offline noahbickart

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #56 on: November 02, 2011, 02:25:52 PM »
i would have bet 1 million bucks that you'd eventually type that response :)

I mean no company affiliation or company disrespect but I fail to see what ALAC brings to the table other than native iOS support.   As with the other codecs I mentioned (wavpack, monkey, etc) what is the benefit?   

The answers are simple:
1. Better battery life on the device playing the file (not usually a problem, I admit) and
2. Native ios (and itunes) support.

The latter makes it worth it for me. Again, if you don't like ALAC, or have a beef with Apple, this news isn't of much interest to you. It isn't even of much practical import anyway since the codec was reverse engineered many many years ago. The only upshot is that now that the codec is open source, more third party software folks will implement it in addition to FLAC, WAV, AIFF, etc.

For those of us who do use Apple products, that's a good thing.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 02:40:47 PM by noahbickart »
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #57 on: November 02, 2011, 02:50:18 PM »
better battery life on the device playing the file and native ios (and itunes) support. The latter makes it worth it for me.

Link to that information claim on battery life?   

This leads me to believe otherwise: http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=91530&view=findpost&p=773666

So again as I said previously other than iOS/iTunes where is the advantage of this particular codec?     

Looking at the facts from just a purely technical standpoint of the various lossless codecs, ALAC sits near the bottom of the pack.   

With regards to being open to more avenues of sharing the music, honestly that is a broad brush that gets overused on this site all too often.   Basicaly what is going on is the market is segregated not just by device manufacturers but now with manufacturer codecs.   I don't see how the latter favors the audio consumer?  You can buy Exile On Main St. for your iPod but if you want it for you Android phone your have to buy a different version.  If you want it on your PC you buy the WMAL version.  For fucks sake can't manufacturers just stick to devices instead of gouging us with redundant music codecs?   

So yes Apple fanboi's this is to you and its to the Windows fanboi's and the Linux ones too.   The problem of too many redundant codecs is not just Apple's fault but others just as equally.    If we look at a few of the largest sites for lossless music (etree, LMA, avax, DaD, HD Tracks) there is a reason why FLAC is so prevalent.   Its a damn good codec that offers many advantages over comparable codecs.    Sometimes having one option ISN'T a bad thing and actually benefits not only the content producer but the content purchaser as well.  Shocking I know.


For those of us who do use Apple products, that's a good thing.

Wouldn't the 'good thing' to do be allowing FLAC in the first place on iOS devices?   
« Last Edit: November 02, 2011, 03:02:47 PM by OFOTD »

Offline bryonsos

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #58 on: November 02, 2011, 03:14:31 PM »
I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Songbird as a flac solution for both PC and Mac. There are apps for both the iPhone and Androids, so it's basically platform neutral. I took an old MacBook, brain wiped it, and made it into a music server for all of my music. It literally only has what loads with OSX, Songbird and music. I don't put too many flacs (or mp3s for that matter) on my iPhone due to space considerations. Generally just the last few shows I've taped or downloaded. Anyway, if you haven't tried it, give it a whirl. Nice interface and feature set IMHO.

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Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #59 on: November 02, 2011, 05:32:35 PM »
You can buy Exile On Main St. for your iPod but if you want it for you Android phone your have to buy a different version. 

That simply isn't true. 

The iTunes store has been DRM-free for over two years.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of you making your point.

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #60 on: November 02, 2011, 05:35:00 PM »
I like that thunderbolt can support both USB and firewire adapters (though no one actually makes them yet).  so at least firewire support won't disappear even if firewire ports do

Actually, if you buy a new Thunderbolt Display from Apple, you get a USB, Firewire, and Gigabit Ethernet adapter included  :P

Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #61 on: November 02, 2011, 05:58:38 PM »
The iTunes store has been DRM-free for over two years.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of you making your point.

ahh facts and the apologists.

So from iTunes I download my favorite album.  Oh but wait its in AAC format because Apple has deemed it THE format of their online store rather than mp3 like damn near everyone else.  Then to transfer it to my android, wm7, etc device I must then re-encode said lossy file into another lossy format (regardless of DRM or not).  Now I have my album I purchased in the original lossy format (by my choice to buy that) and now a lossy re-encode of a lossy format.   As an alternative I can instead purchase an app for my non-Apple device to play AAC files.   Either way it costs me more money OR a further reduction in sound quality.

And this is supposed to be good for the consumer how?   

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #62 on: November 02, 2011, 06:22:34 PM »
The iTunes store has been DRM-free for over two years.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of you making your point.

ahh facts and the apologists.

So from iTunes I download my favorite album.  Oh but wait its in AAC format because Apple has deemed it THE format of their online store rather than mp3 like damn near everyone else.  Then to transfer it to my android, wm7, etc device I must then re-encode said lossy file into another lossy format (regardless of DRM or not).  Now I have my album I purchased in the original lossy format (by my choice to buy that) and now a lossy re-encode of a lossy format.   As an alternative I can instead purchase an app for my non-Apple device to play AAC files.   Either way it costs me more money OR a further reduction in sound quality.

And this is supposed to be good for the consumer how?

Correcting your mis(dis?)information makes me an apologist?  Sweet!

Your original statement said that you had to buy a different version for your Android.  Not sure about all flavors of Android, but all the versions I've seen play AAC files natively.  So does WinMobile7.  Am I missing something here?

AAC is better for the consumer.  It is a standard.  And it is better than MP3.  Again, if you choose to believe Steve Jobs, Apple never wanted DRM.  He knew it was bad for the consumer, but the labels wouldn't have it any other way.

Now it is gone.  And we have a great format that lives in current times, not in the past like mp3 does.  I can't think of a modern media player that doesn't play both formats.

Do you care to elaborate on why you think you need to re-encode or buy apps to play AAC on an Android of WM7 device?

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #63 on: November 02, 2011, 10:18:02 PM »
So from iTunes I download my favorite album.  Oh but wait its in AAC format because Apple has deemed it THE format of their online store rather than mp3 like damn near everyone else.  Then to transfer it to my android, wm7, etc device I must then re-encode said lossy file into another lossy format (regardless of DRM or not).  Now I have my album I purchased in the original lossy format (by my choice to buy that) and now a lossy re-encode of a lossy format.   As an alternative I can instead purchase an app for my non-Apple device to play AAC files. 

http://developer.android.com/guide/appendix/media-formats.html

AAC is the first audio codec listed.  If it really doesn't support anything higher than 160kbps, that's idiotic and not Apple's fault. 

(But hey, Android's open, so someone can easily change that right? :))

Offline Todd R

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #64 on: November 02, 2011, 11:46:24 PM »
Sometimes having one option ISN'T a bad thing and actually benefits not only the content producer but the content purchaser as well.  Shocking I know.


As the taper who is sharing the music, I am the content provider.  And I'm telling you as the content provider, being locked into one codec, namely flac, is not benefiting me.  I would benefit from having other options.

I can see how only having to learn how to handle one codec is a benefit to the downloaders (content purchasers of free music?) since it makes their life easier, but it makes it harder on content proveders who use macs.

Also, I've got to say, all this Apple fanbois and Apple apologists is really annoying.  Would you call me a comcast fanboi if I was excited that Comcast started carrying more Big Ten channels in HD?  For some reason, we seem to be comfortable with the idea that someone can be a customer of comcast without thinking they are the greatest company on earth and the greatest thing since sliced bread.  Why is it people like you always assume that just because someone on balance decides to use an Apple product is immediately a fanboi and an apologist? I use products and services from thousands of companies.  It doesn't make me some over the top fan of these companies, i just use their products.

People use Apple products, and Apple making ALAC open source is good news not bad news.  Essentially telling people you shouldn't be using Apple products anyway (since they don't support flac) is really way besides the point.
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #65 on: November 03, 2011, 04:31:52 PM »
I"d be much happier if Apple joined the 21st century and supported FLAC natively. I use Apple Lossless as it's so convenient. My iPod Touch likes it, my wife's 160 gb iPod Classic likes it, my son's iPod likes it, and I can control iTunes from my iPod Touch and use it around the house through my pc > stereo connection.

Haven't found a music player that supports gapless playback of FLAC that works as well in as many situations. So, I encode and archive as FLAC, but end up making ALAC copies of the stuff I really like.

Same.  I can play ALAC on my phone so I just get that for everything.
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Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #66 on: November 03, 2011, 04:43:17 PM »
I don't understand the 5 page arguement.  If you don't like ALAC, don't use it.  How simple is that??? 

Did we go through the same bitch session when we first made the switch from SHN to FLAC???

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

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Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #67 on: November 03, 2011, 05:32:37 PM »
I don't understand the 5 page arguement.  If you don't like ALAC, don't use it.  How simple is that??? 

Did we go through the same bitch session when we first made the switch from SHN to FLAC???

I think Terry the 5 pages has devolved into an Apple vs. type of discussion.   A discussion can't be had on an Apple related subject without it being taken as a full on assault against Apple themselves.  No distinguishing between the company and just one product.     

Yeah we did go trough the same technical merit based type of discussion from the change of SHN to FLAC.  But once the facts were in, that conversation became easier and it became just a small workflow change.  It was an evolutionary change not a redundant company strong arm change.   There was also no blind brand loyalty for SHN like there appears to be for ALAC.     Because again on its technical and practical merits is just can't compete with the currently well established lossless codecs.

Funny thing is that this wouldn't even be an issue if Apple allowed FLAC.   If FLAC were available on iOS devices does anyone really think ALAC would even be mentioned?  Don't think so.

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #68 on: November 03, 2011, 06:42:53 PM »
I don't understand the 5 page arguement.  If you don't like ALAC, don't use it.  How simple is that??? 

Did we go through the same bitch session when we first made the switch from SHN to FLAC???

I think Terry the 5 pages has devolved into an Apple vs. type of discussion.   A discussion can't be had on an Apple related subject without it being taken as a full on assault against Apple themselves.  No distinguishing between the company and just one product.     


I only got involved when I saw out and out bad information being passed along as if it were fact. 

I'd still like to hear your answers to those questions I asked of you in my previous post.

But I think that it is a different discussion that SHN and FLAC.  They are slightly different beasts, built for different tasks (I see ALAC built solely for DRM purposes).  But again, I could not sit idly by with such bad info being given as the gospel.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #69 on: November 03, 2011, 07:15:14 PM »
I only got involved when I saw out and out bad information being passed along as if it were fact.

I'll just assume the outlandish and out and out bad information about ALAC providing supposed power savings just got by you then.

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2011, 07:20:30 PM »
I only got involved when I saw out and out bad information being passed along as if it were fact.

I'll just assume the outlandish and out and out bad information about ALAC providing supposed power savings just got by you then.

I didn't make that claim.

And you approrpiately pointed out that you sought a source for the belief that power savings were superior with ALAC.  None have to come to light (I haven't looked for any).

Are you saying that since there was perhaps bad info on one side of a discussion, it licenses the other to be loose with their facts?

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #71 on: November 03, 2011, 09:11:06 PM »
I don't understand the 5 page arguement.  If you don't like ALAC, don't use it.  How simple is that??? 

Did we go through the same bitch session when we first made the switch from SHN to FLAC???

I think Terry the 5 pages has devolved into an Apple vs. type of discussion.   A discussion can't be had on an Apple related subject without it being taken as a full on assault against Apple themselves.  No distinguishing between the company and just one product.


I know...  It always does...  I still don't get it...  People like different things and have different needs.  Just because Apple et al doesn't fit your needs doesn't mean it doesn't fit anothers...


Yeah we did go trough the same technical merit based type of discussion from the change of SHN to FLAC.  But once the facts were in, that conversation became easier and it became just a small workflow change.  It was an evolutionary change not a redundant company strong arm change.   There was also no blind brand loyalty for SHN like there appears to be for ALAC.     Because again on its technical and practical merits is just can't compete with the currently well established lossless codecs.


Well, on the various ETREE forums, there was a lot of talk about FLAC in the beginning.  I stuck with SHN well past the time most people switched to FLAC, if only because it was easier for me.  At the time, I didn't see the need or use for FLAC.  I saw it as redundant, but as FLAC has taken over, I've made the switch. 

And I don't see it as a company strong arming anything.  I see it as a third party trying to bridge the gap between the Mass Media Market (RIAA and iPoders) and the Audiophile market (Geeks and us).  I can see ALAC becoming a preferred method of DLing music since it is iPOd compatible, and of CD (or greater) quality.  Since storage space and wifi connectivity, etc have become small and inexpensive issues, I can foresee ALAC slowly taking over where AAC is predominant... 

And if they (whomever you choose since its open source now) can make it as functional (or more) as FLAC, then I see no issue...  You might, but I don't...

Basically, I think that what you are saying is just about waht I was saying when went to FLAC (why change the ETREE standard to accomodate a new format, we don't bother with APE, etc.)...  But here I am using FLAC...   I was proven wrong, you might be too...



Funny thing is that this wouldn't even be an issue if Apple allowed FLAC.   If FLAC were available on iOS devices does anyone really think ALAC would even be mentioned?  Don't think so.


Damn skippy!  I'll always hate on Crapple for this one!!!

Terry
« Last Edit: November 03, 2011, 09:13:07 PM by twatts and not wearing pants »
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

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Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #72 on: November 03, 2011, 10:20:47 PM »
I think Terry the 5 pages has devolved into an Apple vs. type of discussion.   A discussion can't be had on an Apple related subject without it being taken as a full on assault against Apple themselves. 

That's certainly one way to look at it.  Another would be to say people can't discuss a product that Apple had a hand in creating without you trying to trash it.


Yeah we did go trough the same technical merit based type of discussion from the change of SHN to FLAC.  But once the facts were in, that conversation became easier and it became just a small workflow change. 


Switching from FLAC to ALAC is also just a small workflow change.  However, no one is trying to force ALAC on anyone.  This thread was simply a discussion saying another format was open source. 


There was also no blind brand loyalty for SHN like there appears to be for ALAC.     

You really should stop making things up. 


Funny thing is that this wouldn't even be an issue if Apple allowed FLAC.   If FLAC were available on iOS devices does anyone really think ALAC would even be mentioned? 


Absolutely. 

I have been writing software that deals with lossless compression formats for almost 9 years now.  It started as a side project I thought 10-20 people might use and turned into something that's been downloaded over a million times.  I don't say that to try to brag or sound better than anyone else, but I do think that it's given me a pretty good idea of what codecs are in use and how widespread they are. 

You'd be surprised at how many support emails I get from users about Monkey's Audio, Wavpack and even TTA.  It's a hell of a lot more than you think.  So no, FLAC is not the only game in town. 


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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #73 on: November 03, 2011, 11:26:54 PM »
I could careless that Apple doesn't support FLAC.  I enjoy archiving in FLAC, and playing when I feel like it in FLAC on non-Apple products.

Their products are fantastic though, and I'm willing and able to adapt to what they make available.  Going FLAC>ALAC when loading a new batch of shows onto my iPod requires one extra minimal step.  Same step if I were to make MP3's.

It's really not that big of a deal.  As long as my tags stay in place I'm happy. 

I get far more annoyed by having to tag other peoples stuff I download!   ;D
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Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #74 on: November 04, 2011, 12:47:54 AM »
That's certainly one way to look at it.  Another would be to say people can't discuss a product that Apple had a hand in creating without you trying to trash it.

Pretty much just the antenna gate issue and ALAC are my issues with Apple. I can name many things and have about Microsoft, Google and others that suck.  Apple customers just seem to be the most defensive. As i've said on many occasions before I own several Apple products and as I've repeatedly said, the issues I have with ALAC are the same I have with others such as WMAL.   You only get upset when the Apple component is talked about and only focus on it.  Can't help you with that hang up.

However, no one is trying to force ALAC on anyone.  This thread was simply a discussion saying another format was open source.

Apple is trying to force the format to people that own an Apple device free and clear.    It's like Panasonic telling you that you can only watch NBC on their TV's because that's what Panasonic says is the best.   

There was also no blind brand loyalty for SHN like there appears to be for ALAC.
You really should stop making things up. 
   
No offense Scott but get real man and just own up to your Apple brand loyalty.   Nothing wrong with it, Apple depends on it and it works for you but to deny that you and others have it then you're just fooling yourself or you think the rest of us are idiots.  It's like when anything negative is said about Apple you take it personally like someone is taking a direct shot at you or your family.  Like its a personal attack aimed squarely against you individually.   It's not.  It's a personal attack on one product of hundreds that they produce.  That's all.


Funny thing is that this wouldn't even be an issue if Apple allowed FLAC.   If FLAC were available on iOS devices does anyone really think ALAC would even be mentioned?
Absolutely. 

I have been writing software that deals with lossless compression formats for almost 9 years now.  It started as a side project I thought 10-20 people might use and turned into something that's been downloaded over a million times.  I don't say that to try to brag or sound better than anyone else, but I do think that it's given me a pretty good idea of what codecs are in use and how widespread they are. 

You'd be surprised at how many support emails I get from users about Monkey's Audio, Wavpack and even TTA.  It's a hell of a lot more than you think.  So no, FLAC is not the only game in town.
 

I have no doubt that folks ask for those other formats for support, guidance and help.  I certainly have no doubts and much appreciation for your generous contributions over the last nine years.  With that experience you should know that each one of the above codec's you listed is a technically superior codec to ALAC.  That's just the truth.  There is no question or doubt about that.

Where things differ here is that

1. FLAC is the predominant lossless codec right now.  Not the only lossless codec but the most widespread.  Monkey's, WavPack and even TTA are codecs that offer slightly different features on top of core features that again already out pace ALAC and others.  For example WavPack supports multi-channel audio ( >7.1) that others don't.   Monkey's is a codec popular in Russia predominately but itself lack certain features (multichannel, error correction) and quite honestly probably is another codec that should be phased out.  TTA is really trying to be an embedded hardware format and not really intended as a portable music format like FLAC and the others are supportive of.   

2. Apple is the leader in portable audio players sales right now in the US.  More iPod's than Zune's, Nomad's, etc.  So they have real power in pushing (or forcing depending on your outlook) formats.  In this case with iOS they are pushing/forcing a redundant and comparatively inferior codec on its customers.  Once again how is that good for the consumer?

3. If you were to take out the Apple development connection to ALAC entirely.  Pretend IBM made it up for the sake of the discussion.  Then compare it to the other offerings you support with your software and tell me why anyone would choose it?    Because it plays on an IBM music player is a fair answer but wouldn't you just wonder why they just don't make it easy for the consumer and support what is the generally used and accepted lossless format in addition to it being free? 

4. I find it silly that folks around here who are educated about audio and codecs would be more apt to defend these types of redundant codecs than they would be to say 'my audio player manufacturer is missing it here'.   If Microsoft made it so that you could only use WMAL on a Windows machine/device there would be crosses burning and antitrust suits being filed.  Apple in this case is given a pass.   It's accepted because Apple said so.  That does not make sense.

5. The argument that you don't have to use it is just hollow.  If you use the most popular portable audio player or the third most popular smart phone and want to listen to lossless files you have to use ALAC.   Why should I be restricted on a device I own because a manufacturer is for lack of a better phrase being heavy handed?

I would love to continue to debate the merits of audio codecs as I obviously have an interest and a bit of knowledge on them but if you can't be neutral based on facts and continue to feel like its a personal attack on you or your preferred technology company then discussion isn't what you want.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2011, 01:18:34 AM »

Well, on the various ETREE forums, there was a lot of talk about FLAC in the beginning.  I stuck with SHN well past the time most people switched to FLAC, if only because it was easier for me.  At the time, I didn't see the need or use for FLAC.  I saw it as redundant, but as FLAC has taken over, I've made the switch. 

And I don't see it as a company strong arming anything.  I see it as a third party trying to bridge the gap between the Mass Media Market (RIAA and iPoders) and the Audiophile market (Geeks and us).  I can see ALAC becoming a preferred method of DLing music since it is iPOd compatible, and of CD (or greater) quality.  Since storage space and wifi connectivity, etc have become small and inexpensive issues, I can foresee ALAC slowly taking over where AAC is predominant... 

And if they (whomever you choose since its open source now) can make it as functional (or more) as FLAC, then I see no issue...  You might, but I don't...

Basically, I think that what you are saying is just about waht I was saying when went to FLAC (why change the ETREE standard to accomodate a new format, we don't bother with APE, etc.)...  But here I am using FLAC...   I was proven wrong, you might be too...


Nice response Terry with good points from your personal experience.  Appreciate it!

- Remember when the discussions about SHN were going on we were still very much new to lossless encoding and how it related to music.  Not just our live music but just music in general.   SHN was adopted early because it was very much marketed at the time to our segment.  Two things really swayed things over.  1. SHN was not free and not open source moving forward.  2. FLAC offered so many things that SHN was either incapable of doing or the developer was unwilling to do.   So a list gets put together of the feature sets that FLAC and SHN had.  After that it became a no brainer of which was a superior codec/format.  FLAC offered more at the time and offered more going forward into future expansion of the codec.  You may have seen FLAC as redundant, I suspect you either didn't see or were not aware of the differences in the formats.  Again it was an early time for lossless codecs.  People got stuck with SHN.  With any new technology once people learn one way they are usually reluctant to change even if for the better.  Human nature re: technology.   Once that feature list was in front of us then there was no question.   Then development came in the front end GUI game and people realized that it wasn't that big of a change workflow wise.   If FLAC were just SHN in new clothing then there wouldn't have been a switch.   Similar to that ALAC is more comparable SHN feature wise than it is to FLAC (multi channel nonwithstanding)

- re: Bridging a gap - I don't think Apple, Microsoft, Google, Amazon gives two shits about audiophiles.   They know audiophiles are going to do their own thing regardless of what they do.    We are all good examples of that.   Where the issue really lies is your friends and my friends who don't know the difference between FLAC , ALAC, WMAL, Wv.   The 99% if you will don't want to have to mess with TLH or xACT or whatever needed to change formats.   They want one.  That's why mp3 is so popular.    It's easy and for the most part has been developed to be superior to many other lossy formats.   I would suspect that if you were to get those people into lossless they would want the same consistency.   Currently FLAC is THE lossless codec for the major lossless distributors (HDTracks, avax, et al)  That's not even counting the small niche that we take up with the live Dead, Panic, ABB, etc that offer their products in FLAC.

- ALAC would have to go through a complete overhaul of the format just to catch up to the others right now who are all in continual development as well.  Certainly if they could equal or pass FLAC or the others then the game changes.   But as of today the format is no where close to being anywhere near as feature rich as FLAC, Wv, etc.

- What I am saying is that by manufacturers continuing to invent and dictate in no uncertain terms what you must use without the benefit of choice then the consumer loses out.  Be it Apple or whomever, it is not beneficial to the consumer.  As lossless develops more and more and hopefully gets into mainstream consumers brains I believe it is beneficial to not confuse them with multiple lossless formats.  Easy way to turn people off by giving them too many redundant choices.

I am keenly aware of the big picture of this and am not just limited in my thinking to our small segment of the audio pie.   
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 01:46:07 AM by OFOTD »

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2011, 08:34:10 AM »
Like I said in my first post

I can't see ALAC supplanting FLAC.  FLAC has already reached a critical mass and ALAC really offers no real advantages over FLAC.

SHN was closed and limited in what file types it can handle and although it is true some audiophiles are looking for and mastering is done in higher resolution then 24bit 192Khz (32bit, 5-6 multiibit DSD, 300+Khz or 11.2MHz DSD etc) I don't see a need for these formats yet especially when file size is absurd today - in the future when we all have PB or EB sized drives maybe not so much.

I do think Apple provides alot of valuable technologies and ideas but IMO ALAC is just apples copy of FLAC (it came out 2 years after FLAC started being used). 

And I don't see sites like Internet Archive, Live<BAND>.com, etc switching over to ALAC as I am sure Apple could easily just yank ALAC back under it's umbrella if it wanted too.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2011, 09:38:33 AM by H²O »
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2011, 09:14:56 AM »
Apple customers just seem to be the most defensive. As i've said on many occasions before I own several Apple products and as I've repeatedly said, the issues I have with ALAC are the same I have with others such as WMAL.   You only get upset when the Apple component is talked about and only focus on it.  Can't help you with that hang up.

I think you're only getting worked up about it because of the Apple component. 

Apple is trying to force the format to people that own an Apple device free and clear.    It's like Panasonic telling you that you can only watch NBC on their TV's because that's what Panasonic says is the best.   

I'd be willing to bet a lot of money that 99.9% of ipod/iPhone owners have never heard of Apple Lossless, so I really don't know how that means Apple is forcing the format on people.  Also, the format has been around for over 7 years.  Why are you getting so worked up about it now?

No offense Scott but get real man and just own up to your Apple brand loyalty.   Nothing wrong with it, Apple depends on it and it works for you but to deny that you and others have it then you're just fooling yourself or you think the rest of us are idiots.  It's like when anything negative is said about Apple you take it personally like someone is taking a direct shot at you or your family.  Like its a personal attack aimed squarely against you individually.   It's not.  It's a personal attack on one product of hundreds that they produce.  That's all.

Again, tell me where there's blind Apple brand loyalty here, especially from me. The only things I've said in this thread are that I think Apple had reasons for making the Apple Lossless format that weren't just about making money, that I don't think it's the end of the world if there's another lossless format, and that I don't even use the Apple Lossless format.  Others in this thread have simply said that they don't think it's the end of the world that Apple Lossless exists.  That's not blind loyalty.  You're the only one really getting worked up over all of this


I have no doubt that folks ask for those other formats for support, guidance and help.  I certainly have no doubts and much appreciation for your generous contributions over the last nine years.  With that experience you should know that each one of the above codec's you listed is a technically superior codec to ALAC.  That's just the truth.  There is no question or doubt about that.

Well, if you want to get into it, I don't think it is the truth.  Of course, in going into details here, you'll just call me an Apple fanboy, but I'm used to it. But I don't think Monkey's audio can support 96khz or above, and doesn't support more than 2 channels. 

Also, since you're claiming only the technically superior FLAC should be used by all, you should note that technically TTA and Wavpack have better specs than FLAC since they support higher sample rates, bit depths and numbers of channels.  So if you want to claim Apple Lossless is pointless because it's inferior, then technically you're preferred format (and mine) is also pointless and inferior.


Where things differ here is that

1. FLAC is the predominant lossless codec right now.  Not the only lossless codec but the most widespread.

So what?  Saying FLAC is the predominant lossless codec is like saying SACD was more popular than DVD-Audio.  Most people have never heard of FLAC.  I fail to see the harm in other formats existing that these same people also haven't heard of.


2. Apple is the leader in portable audio players sales right now in the US.  More iPod's than Zune's, Nomad's, etc.  So they have real power in pushing (or forcing depending on your outlook) formats.  In this case with iOS they are pushing/forcing a redundant and comparatively inferior codec on its customers.  Once again how is that good for the consumer?

It sounds like you might actually be ok with Apple not supporting FLAC if they also didn't support Apple Lossless.  Am I correct?  If that's the case, would you get this worked up if Apple still didn't support FLAC but decided to support Wavpack or Monkey's audio?  Or would you just think "that's dumb" and move on?

Again, knowing Apple's history, they probably wrote their own codec for the same reason they do most things for themselves: they like to rely on as few 3rd parties as possible. When they started streaming music to Airport Express units, they had the option of streaming uncompressed data (pointless), lossy data (sounds worse) or lossless data.  This was 2003/2004, when FLAC was still pretty new itself and unknown to pretty much everyone but people like us.  Apple could have chosen FLAC or some other non-standard 3rd party format or they could have made their own and made sure it played nice with what they wanted to do.  So they made their own codec for iTunes to stream to the airport express units and included it with Quicktime 6.5.1 in April of 2004.  That means Apple Lossless has been around for over 7.5 years with most people having no idea it even exists. If Apple is pushing the format as hard as you say they are, they're doing a pretty horrible job at it.

3. If you were to take out the Apple development connection to ALAC entirely.  Pretend IBM made it up for the sake of the discussion.  Then compare it to the other offerings you support with your software and tell me why anyone would choose it?    Because it plays on an IBM music player is a fair answer but wouldn't you just wonder why they just don't make it easy for the consumer and support what is the generally used and accepted lossless format in addition to it being free? 

Whether IBM made it, Dell made it, Microsoft made it or you made it, I really wouldn't feel any differently than I do now.  I would see it as another lossless format.  That's it.  I really wouldn't care any more or any less than I already do about Apple Lossless.


4. I find it silly that folks around here who are educated about audio and codecs would be more apt to defend these types of redundant codecs than they would be to say 'my audio player manufacturer is missing it here'.   If Microsoft made it so that you could only use WMAL on a Windows machine/device there would be crosses burning and antitrust suits being filed.  Apple in this case is given a pass.   It's accepted because Apple said so.  That does not make sense.

But Apple hasn't said you can't use FLAC on a Macintosh or an iOS device.  They just don't have native support for it.  Does Windows have native flac support? Do windows phones and zunes play flac out of the box? No.  Microsoft in thie case is given a pass. It's accepted because Microsoft said so. That does not make sense.

5. The argument that you don't have to use it is just hollow.  If you use the most popular portable audio player or the third most popular smart phone and want to listen to lossless files you have to use ALAC.   Why should I be restricted on a device I own because a manufacturer is for lack of a better phrase being heavy handed?

If you want to use FLAC there are 3rd party solutions. This isn't any different from Windows Phone.  You (and I) may not like this answer, but Apple isn't the only one giving this answer.


I would love to continue to debate the merits of audio codecs as I obviously have an interest and a bit of knowledge on them but if you can't be neutral based on facts and continue to feel like its a personal attack on you or your preferred technology company then discussion isn't what you want.

I never said anything was a personal attack.  The only person doing any kinds of personal attacks here (once again) is you.  I simply am not offended by a 7.5+ year audio codec becoming open-source and you're not going to convince me that I should be. 

Offline scb

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2011, 09:19:39 AM »

- ALAC would have to go through a complete overhaul of the format just to catch up to the others right now who are all in continual development as well.  Certainly if they could equal or pass FLAC or the others then the game changes.   But as of today the format is no where close to being anywhere near as feature rich as FLAC, Wv, etc.

The geek in me (not the fanboy!) is curious why you think Apple Lossless needs a complete overhaul? 


Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #79 on: November 04, 2011, 10:50:56 AM »
First off Scott I can promise you that i'm not getting worked up over this and I certainly am not getting worked up because of Apple.   That much is certain.  If it was just about Apple then I would not have listed other codecs as well. I would have singled out ALAC by itself.  Instead I listed and continued to list ALAC AND others.  You were the one that choose to concentrate the discussion on the Apple part.   


The geek in me (not the fanboy!) is curious why you think Apple Lossless needs a complete overhaul?

It was in response to Terry.


And if they (whomever you choose since its open source now) can make it as functional (or more) as FLAC, then I see no issue...  You might, but I don't...
- ALAC would have to go through a complete overhaul of the format just to catch up to the others right now who are all in continual development as well.  Certainly if they could equal or pass FLAC or the others then the game changes.   But as of today the format is no where close to being anywhere near as feature rich as FLAC, Wv, etc.

So to make ALAC as functional as the widely used lossless codec (FLAC in this case but let's throw in Wv for good measure) it would need an overhaul.  That much is clear in that situation.  Who is to say that Apple couldn't come out and overhaul the codec to at the very least catch up to FLAC, Wv and others.   That would change things.  But that kind of thing just isn't in Apple's DNA for reasons of their own.  It doesn't mean that Apple is bad or that they should be shunned across the board.  It just simply means that their codec is grossly subpar in comparison.  No more no less.

Back to an earlier statement from you though about Monkey's.  It is outdated and it is limited.   Thankfully we're seeing less and less of that codec.    Codecs are not like cars.   With cars more choice is typically a good thing.   Ford, Chevy, Dodge, etc.  More for you to choose from.   A Ford is not going to be fundamentally different than the Dodge on the road.  The Ford is not limited to only Ford roads.     With codecs there are many fundamental differences.   More choices and especially redundant and less established choices confuse and dilute the market.    Again remember that you and I know the difference and care about those differences.   Our friends and family could probably care less.  So why confuse those people even further?

Get rid of ALAC, let Monkey's die, take WMAL and take SHN and ogg with you while you're at it.  Why not do what's is beneficial for the consumer?   

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #80 on: November 04, 2011, 10:54:56 AM »
Why is it clear that Apple Lossless is so inferior?  That's what I was asking when I said "why does it need an overhaul?"  I'm not trying to be a dick here.  I'm really curious if i'm missing something that makes Apple Lossless "grossly subpar."  You say it's clear, but I guess I don't see why.

Offline OFOTD

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #81 on: November 04, 2011, 11:11:52 AM »
Here is a brief list of what ALAC does not have in comparison to FLAC and Wv:

- slower encoding speed
- lack of encoding flexability
- error handling
- non-iTunes/QT tagging support
- limited software support (this is the easiest to change with the move to open source)
- replay gain support
- high resolution multichannel support

For comparison WMAL is in the same boat almost point by point but is further limited by it not being open source and I don't believe it is supported by Linux but that may have changed.  It does though provide error handling.   Monkey's limitations as previously stated are multichannel support and limited high resolution support.   TTA's two big negatives are lack of streaming support and its focus on wanting to be an embedded hardware codec.

So as it stands today ALAC, WMAL, APE are in comparison inferior codecs.   They lack major features that FLAC and Wv have.  Again nothing says that Apple, Microsoft and Monkey's couldn't update their codecs to provide the features that the top two offer but today they don't.   Both Apple and Microsoft have track records of sitting on their hands in these situations because i'm guessing they can.  Their right for sure.

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #82 on: November 04, 2011, 11:56:49 AM »
Here is a brief list of what ALAC does not have in comparison to FLAC and Wv:

- slower encoding speed
- lack of encoding flexability
- error handling
- non-iTunes/QT tagging support
- limited software support (this is the easiest to change with the move to open source)
- replay gain support
- high resolution multichannel support

For comparison WMAL is in the same boat almost point by point but is further limited by it not being open source and I don't believe it is supported by Linux but that may have changed.  It does though provide error handling.   Monkey's limitations as previously stated are multichannel support and limited high resolution support.   TTA's two big negatives are lack of streaming support and its focus on wanting to be an embedded hardware codec.

So as it stands today ALAC, WMAL, APE are in comparison inferior codecs.   They lack major features that FLAC and Wv have.  Again nothing says that Apple, Microsoft and Monkey's couldn't update their codecs to provide the features that the top two offer but today they don't.   Both Apple and Microsoft have track records of sitting on their hands in these situations because i'm guessing they can.  Their right for sure.

-Is the encoding speed slower?  I know encoding of 24 bit flac files is by design slow so decompression can be faster.
-what do you mean by "lack of encoding flexibility?"
-I'm not sure what error handling is or isn't included in Apple Lossless, but adding it wouldn't require an overhaul
-The tagging in Apple Lossless isn't "iTunes" or "Quicktime" tagging.  It's MPEG-4 tagging (a standard)
-Does anyone actually use replay gain?  Anyway, replay gain is supported in the mp4 container, on AAC files, and may currently work with Apple Lossless.  I'm not sure. It certainly wouldn't require an overhaul of the format if not, though.
-Who said Apple Lossless lacks high resolution multichannel support?

Offline keytohwy

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #83 on: November 04, 2011, 08:57:40 PM »
The iTunes store has been DRM-free for over two years.  But hey, why let facts get in the way of you making your point.

...Then to transfer it to my android, wm7, etc device I must then re-encode said lossy file into another lossy format (regardless of DRM or not).  Now I have my album I purchased in the original lossy format (by my choice to buy that) and now a lossy re-encode of a lossy format.   As an alternative I can instead purchase an app for my non-Apple device to play AAC files.   Either way it costs me more money OR a further reduction in sound quality.


Can you follow up on this, and the other things you said when you have a chance?  I'm still not clear why stating such inaccurate things seems ok here.  Every time I ask you to address it, you deflect.

Thanks,
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #84 on: November 04, 2011, 09:19:34 PM »
How can I play flac files on a jailbroken iphone?
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #85 on: November 04, 2011, 10:38:05 PM »
probably the same way you can play them on a non-jailbroken phone.  someone wrote a flac player app. it's on the app store

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #86 on: November 04, 2011, 11:47:58 PM »
Pre-merger...

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #87 on: November 05, 2011, 12:54:47 AM »
Here is a brief list of what ALAC does not have in comparison to FLAC and Wv:

- slower encoding speed
- lack of encoding flexability
- error handling
- non-iTunes/QT tagging support
- limited software support (this is the easiest to change with the move to open source)
- replay gain support
- high resolution multichannel support

For comparison WMAL is in the same boat almost point by point but is further limited by it not being open source and I don't believe it is supported by Linux but that may have changed.  It does though provide error handling.   Monkey's limitations as previously stated are multichannel support and limited high resolution support.   TTA's two big negatives are lack of streaming support and its focus on wanting to be an embedded hardware codec.

So as it stands today ALAC, WMAL, APE are in comparison inferior codecs.   They lack major features that FLAC and Wv have.  Again nothing says that Apple, Microsoft and Monkey's couldn't update their codecs to provide the features that the top two offer but today they don't.   Both Apple and Microsoft have track records of sitting on their hands in these situations because i'm guessing they can.  Their right for sure.

You still haven't discouraged me from me being excited about ALAC becoming open source.  None of those factors you list matter to me for my current purposes (in order: so what, so what, md5, so what, you concede, flac does that???, and so what).  If I could more easily add lossless playback to my wifes ipod and car stereo playback, it would be great.  I wish it was FLAC, but if its ALAC, so be it...  Hopefully making it open source will solve some of the issue you bring to light.

Thanks!

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #88 on: November 05, 2011, 01:02:58 PM »
I just tested a few 24/96 wav files, encoding both to flac level 8 and apple lossless.

Flac compression was not faster (and was often slower.  compressing to flac level 4 or 5 seemed to be about the same speed as Apple Lossless compression).

Note: I am not saying "Apple Lossless is faster!  Apple rocks!" I'm simply saying that that I don't see any evidence for the statement that Apple Lossless encoding is slower

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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #89 on: November 05, 2011, 08:16:34 PM »
I just tested a few 24/96 wav files

Your tests also don't provide any evidence that ALAC isn't slower than FLAC.  Personally, I don't really care one way or another.  But if you're going to test, the only helpful test must take into account not only speed, but also compression ratio.  Only when the compression ratios are the same (or at least reasonably close) is it worthwhile to compare speed.
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Re: ALAC Now Open Source
« Reply #90 on: November 05, 2011, 08:37:46 PM »
I realize it wasn't a fully scientific test.  But the argument of "yet another reason Apple Lossless sucks and has no reason existing is because encoding is slower" (at least to me) implies that it's noticeably slower.  I don't see it, even at the same compression ratio.   

 

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