Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Poll

What is your favorite sounding hypercardioid capsule?

Schoeps mk41
22 (21.8%)
Schoeps mk41V
8 (7.9%)
AKG ck63
24 (23.8%)
Gefell m21
20 (19.8%)
Neumann ak50
9 (8.9%)
beyerdynamic ck950
2 (2%)
MBHO ka500
3 (3%)
Milab vm-44 (super)
3 (3%)
I prefer shotguns (or something else not listed here) you insensitive clod!
10 (9.9%)

Total Members Voted: 101

Author Topic: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?  (Read 27975 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

cashandkerouac

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2013, 05:33:49 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

Bean, i would have been disappointed if you did not chime in with a plug for the 41s.  they are indeed great mics. 

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2013, 06:43:20 PM »
Hehehe ;D
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline ts

  • Trade Count: (81)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3617
  • Gender: Male
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #32 on: January 22, 2013, 11:02:18 AM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

I had a 641 set and 21's. It was so long ago the 641 set was 1850. :o Like everything else I've owned, I sold them. :'(

I going to try to build a MK4>Nick cables>PFA's rig. ;)

stevetoney

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #33 on: January 22, 2013, 01:23:33 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

Offline Todd R

  • Over/Under on next gear purchase: 2 months
  • Trade Count: (29)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4901
  • Gender: Male
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2013, 01:31:21 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

True to some extent I'm sure, but as I wrote, I've owned quite a number of removable capsule hypercard mics.  And I was mainly putting forth as best hypers I no longer own (m210s) and hypers I've never owned (schoeps mk41).

To some extent, it would make sense that you own what you think best, so suggestions on what is best reflect choices that have already been made.  To me though, I recognize I liked the Gefells best, but I don't prefer the hypercard pattern overall, and would rather put less money into hypers and more money into cardioids which I prefer better.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

stevetoney

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 01:41:02 PM »
but I don't prefer the hypercard pattern overall, and would rather put less money into hypers and more money into cardioids which I prefer better.

This is the camp I've generally been in too.  I've generally preferred the overall tonal flavors and authenticity of my cards, while respecting the off-axis rejection offered by a good hyper.  Since I'm not made of money and have had to make a choice, I opted for the tonal flavors over the off-axis rejection.

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 06:38:44 PM »
I avoided super/hyper-cardioids for years, partly because good sounding examples are generally a good bit more costly than comparable sounding microphones with wider pickup patterns (cardioids, especially omnidirectionals), but also because the use of them to help mitigate the effects of unfavorable acoustics and/or excessive crowd noise, while effective, effectively compounds the issue of ‘less than optimal recording conditions’ with ‘less than great sounding pattern in a price range I’m comfortable with’.

Usually I simply don’t care to record in those less than good conditions anyway, so the motivation to spend enough to get decent ‘more-directional-than-cardioid’ microphones (other than the pair of ADK TLs which I already owned) just wasn’t happening.  That has more to do with my personal recording choices rather than anything else, which I realize is quite different than the motivation of many others here. I’m not a ‘gotta get it recorded’ archivist. So the ‘problem reducing’ aspect of super/hypercardioids in itself isn’t as important to me as others around here.

So why am I interested in them?  As a way to maximize channel separation in some of my multichannel setups given other constraints. The directionality of a super/hypercardioid helps do that.

Fair warning- feel free to skip my next post if my rambling on about this arcane stuff bores you!
« Last Edit: January 22, 2013, 09:16:54 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 06:42:46 PM »
Arcane ramble-

I have a pet theory about the problematic sound of more directional patterns - A more natural sounding recording results in part from microphones with better balanced frequency pickup across their off-axis region.  I think few would argue with that.  But I think what is really important on a more basic level isn’t the behavior of each mic in isolation, but rather the collective response of the entire mic array.

I think the contribution of other mics in the array can mask problems, if arranged so that the well-behaved on-axis region (higher in level) covers the less well behaved off-axis (and lower level) region of other mics.  By that I mean that a well balanced frequency response in all directions is what I think is really the most important thing.  In other words, the combined polar patterns can make for desirable level differences which reduce the audibility of undesirable frequency differences.  That can be achieved by using great quality mics with exemplary off-axis behavior like the MK41, or by the strategic arrangement of multiple mics to achieve a similar end result as a group, taken as a whole. Of course it’s a lot easier to use mics with great off-axis behavior to start with, and that’s the only way to do it in 2-channel, since two microphones can not fully cover the misbehaving off-axis polar regions of each other. 

However, since I’m recording 4 sometimes 5 or a couple times 6 directional channels and recently decided after recording and listening that masking effects can go a long way in helping make up for substituting a less 'good' center cardioid for a much better one, I’ve convinced myself that masking had a larger effect than I though it would.  In that example I substituted AT933 cardioids for Gefell M94s as center and back mics, without changing L/R mics, and it was suprisingly not as noticable as I thought it would be played back out of the R44 both hard LR mixed to 2-ch and multi-channel. Not nearly as much of a downgrade as I imagine it would have been if substituting the ATs for the Geffs in straight 2-channel, which I guess is somewhat obvious when mixed to 2-channel, but suprisingly not when played through individual speakers either. It was ear opening, at least that test.. any way I'm thinking I might be in search of 'good enough' light-weight low powered cards and hypers to play around with as a center plus rear facing pair for the 6' spaced LR 4060s in a compact 5 channel surround rig into the DR680.

Although earlier I mentioned using the TLs in hypercardioid mode more often recently, I should clarify that I’ve never used them that way as a 2-channel stereo pair alone*.  I pulled out the TLs again and started using them more frequently because I wanted increased channel separation in multi-channel surround configurations.  When adding a third (center) channel to what was an optimized 2-channel stereo pair, with the idea of playing back the recording across the same stereo soundstage width, no matter if that playback is done way of two or three front speakers, I want to narrow the stereo recording angle between each mic-pair segment to something like half of what it was previously when using only two mics.

To achieve that, I can angle the mics apart more (but Left and Right then point sideways or even backwards,) and/or space them apart more, and/or increase the directivity of the pickup pattern.

I picked up a 3rd ADK TL so I could have three identical mics to make L/C/R groupings- in particular, hypercardioids at reasonable spacings which didn’t require the mics to be pointed in absurd directions to get enough channel separation.  The other ways I’ve found of doing it which also work optimally require me to space Left/Right omnis 6’ apart with a directional mic in the Center.  Using hypercardioids I can space Left/Right a couple feet apart and point them more forward.  Even then, the theoretically optimal configuration would have Left/Right pointing directly to the sides, which I’ve tried with Gunther Thiele’s OCT setup [explanatory links- DPA, Schoeps, Thiele PDF]  (who suggests using MK41s specifically because of their good off-axis response since the Left/Right mics are pointed 90 degress to the sides).  Even with the TLs, which as twin diaphragm LDs I’m sure exhibit off-axis irregularities which Joe pointed out earlier,  I can hear better L/C/R imaging and cross-channel seperation (less L in R and R in L) provided by OCT in a couple recordings I’ve made that way, but it doesn’t address practical issues of the situations I record in.  So I put the mics in a somewhat similar triangle, increased the directivity of the center mic from a cardioid to a hypercardioid and angled the Left/Right mics forwards ~45 degrees as a more practical solution. Maybe that's more like a small-dimension Decca tree using hypercardioids.  The point is that I wouldn't want to put those three mics that close together, or that minimally angled apart, without them being hypercardioids.

----------------------------------------
* Note to 2-channel X/Y aficionados- If I wanted to record a 2-channel X/Y stereo pair (and not specifically X/Y Blumlien, or X/Y as mid/side) I’d almost always choose hypercardioids over cardioids.  An exception would be close mic’ing something I wished to be stereo but completely phase coherent, but then I’d probably still prefer M/S unless decoding it posed a practical problem. 

[edited to fix it]
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:42:21 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OOK

  • Trade Count: (17)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2727
  • Gender: Male
  • formerly OtherOneK
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2013, 07:59:56 PM »
I know this isn't a scientific study or anything, but I'm observing that almost all of the answers are based on what you currently own or what series you currently own.  I suppose that's logical...why would you own something else if you didn't think what you had sounded good/best?  On the other hand, 'favorite' is usually significantly biased by the homer factor so it most definitely can't be translated to an objective statement of which is the best sounding hyper capsule.  I know nobody has really said that, but thought I'd throw it out there.

I agree to some extent, however there are those of us doing this a long time and have had a lot of experience with the sound of diferent hypers discussed.  While I have not owned many of the mics discussed I have heard many example of these mics.  All this leading to the reason why I purchased what I purchased.  Of the hypers mentioned I don't have enough experience with the senn. 8050 and beyer950.  While I have heard only a few recordings with these mics they sound promising to me but I need more example to say for sure.  I know I don't like the mk41 or the ak50 or the ck63.  The only reason I don't own m21 is the buddy I record with a lot has a set and it would be silly to have 2 of the same mics recording the same show. 

I always have to laugh when I see 20 pairs of schoeps at a show.....  For me MBHO has been the absolute best bang for the buck microphone ever made.  Everything after is all a mater of diminishing return.    Do shcoeps sound 1k to 1.5k better than MBHO, for the me the answer is a resounding no, especially since MBHO chief engineer Manfred Schneider work a long time for Dr. Schoep.  I am sure Manfred Schneider didn't create a complete new design. 

Peace OOK
DPA/HEB 4060's > R09HR
MBHO648/KA100Lk/KA200/KA300/KA500 > SD702

stevetoney

  • Guest
  • Trade Count: (0)
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2013, 10:08:38 PM »
Ook, for the better attended shows, I don't know ahead of time who's showing up with what gear.  If I go through the effort to get a taper ticket or just to get my gear in, i'm not going to just set it on the floor bc someone else is running the same capsules as me.  For one, I get off on my own recording, no matter how many others are there...mines the one I want to hear the next day...maybe not forever but the next day.  lol.  Also, its not all about the capsules.  Preamp, adc and what you decide to do in post makes a difference as well. 

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #40 on: January 22, 2013, 10:37:20 PM »
As long as we're talking fatigue. My old rig: JW's>CK63>V3. That rig took fatigue to a whole new level. :o

You need 41s not 4s ;D

I had a 641 set and 21's. It was so long ago the 641 set was 1850. :o Like everything else I've owned, I sold them. :'(

I going to try to build a MK4>Nick cables>PFA's rig. ;)

That's how much they were back in 1999 when I bought my 480s!!! Wish things were like that again but technology is far greater these days and gear is a lot cheaper, well, not the mics, but everything else is!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (16)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15736
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2013, 10:41:38 PM »
Also, its not all about the capsules.  Preamp, adc and what you decide to do in post makes a difference as well.

And as always, location and dare I mention it after my last post, configuration.
..and I'm with Steve on the next day listen.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2013, 11:08:47 PM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline bryonsos

  • Omni addict
  • Trade Count: (28)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2061
  • Gender: Male
  • If it's important, tell me to write it down.
    • LMA uploads
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #43 on: January 22, 2013, 11:54:48 PM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.
Mics: 3 Zigma Chi HA-FX (COL-251, c, h, o-d, o-f) / Avenson STO-2 / Countryman B3s
Pres: CA-Ugly / Naiant Tinyhead / SD MixPre
Decks: Roland R-44 / Sony PCM-M10
GAKables
Dead Muppets

My recordings LMA / BT / TTD

Offline JD

  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Taperssection All-Star
  • ****
  • Posts: 1643
Re: Favorite Hypercardioid condenser *capsule* (and why)?
« Reply #44 on: January 23, 2013, 12:04:21 AM »
And as someone who ran mbho hypers for 4 years, I must say, there are many pairs of schoeps at some shows for a reason, it's because the simply sound the best. You def get what you pay for!!!

Disagree.


x2
Mics: DPA 4022, 4060; Nevaton MC51, MCE400; Gefell sms2000, m20, m21, m27
Pres: DPA MMA6000; Grace V2; Portico 5012; Sonosax SX-M2
Recorders: Edirol R09hr, Sound Devices 722

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.079 seconds with 42 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF