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Author Topic: Is this Balanced???  (Read 7531 times)

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Offline sickrick43

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2004, 11:26:34 PM »
I make a lot of these cables everyday at work for a lot of the audio equipment I work with.

I usually use 22awg Beldon 8451 wire.  Is this a recommended wire type for recording. btw, i use it for XLR's RCA ect...

Just curious.



http://bwccat.belden.com/ecat/jsp/Index.jsp?&P1=undefined&P2=undefined&P3=undefined&P4=undefined&P5=undefined&P6=undefined

It would probably be OK for RCA - 2 conductor cable, but I (and most others here) would probably recommend using a 3 conductor cable for balanced/XLR cables.  Without going into alot of techno-mumbo-jumbo, XLR's carry signal on all 3 conductors (actually ground being reference for 0).  The cable you indicated is "technically" only a 2 conductor cable.  The twisting of pairs in the cable itself is what is responsible for noise rejection, lack or crosstalk between pairs, etc.  The drain wire, even though it's the same guage as the actual conductors is also electrically tied to the shield, which means noise could actually be INDUCED INTO this conductor.  Not good for balanced audio cables.

Which is not to say that Beldon makes shitty cables, just that this particular model is inappropriate for XLR/Balanced analog audio cables.

Hope this helps.

Rick
« Last Edit: April 16, 2004, 11:27:34 PM by sickrick43 »
4 Track & CD Live Rig: TLM-170's->V3->SD-744T  CDLive->TC Finalzer Express->Tascam CDR-900SL

24 Track Rig: Audix D6/D2/D4/I5/SCX1-C/O->Whilrwind SPC82 ISO Splitters->DigimaxLT's->Alesis HD24 (Lucid GenX192 Master Clock)

Canon 1Ds MarkII - 16-35/2.8L - 24-70/2.8L - 70-200/2.8L IS - 180/f:3.5 Macro - 550EX Flash


"this isnt a dramatic bitchy exit, its just time to go." - Big Ray (queen of the dramatic bitchy exit)

Offline digital-havok

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2004, 08:31:55 AM »
Hi Rick!

Thanks so much for replying to my post, greatly appriciated.  I use beldon 9451 (22 gauge) on a daily basis.  I use it alot for balanced sources.  By doing this, I use the red, black and the shield as my 3rd wire.  When I use the shield, I ALWAYS cover it with green shrink tubing.  I've bever had an issue and i test all my cables with a Miniratorand a Minilyzer  If those are curious on what those two instruments are, one send a test audio signal with a desired signal.  The other, Minilyzer reads that and tells you if the signal is the same throughout the entire wire.

So, here is an example.  I setup the minirator as a Sine Wave @ 1khz @ -10 (Which is a testing standard for me) I should read that on the other end.

I did NOT read the entire thread so I appologize if thise has already been brought up.

I'm almost finished wiring the Boston Convention Center and I've used mainly Beldon wire for balanced source signals.  That's mainly why I wanted to put input in to this subjust, also hear others thoughts.

Here is the picture of the illustrious Boston Convention Center for all those that are curious of what it looks like inside.

A little background of this building first.

1) It was 1 Billion Dollars to make (it's not done yet), Of the Taxpayers money.
2) It's 1.5 Million square feet.
3) The audio that I (and the small company I work for) is all controlled VIA computer/Ethernet.  Controlled with Media matrix software.  Created by one company, horded by Peavey.

Hope you all enjoy the pictures.

Joe

P.S  Thanks for the warm welcome to the board fellas.


Offline John R

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2004, 11:14:12 AM »
joe, let's see some more photos.  looks the same as when i wired a middle/high shcool.  mires of copper and fiber
we all live downstream.

Offline Marc Nutter

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2004, 01:09:56 PM »
Hi Joe and All,

Wow, this thread is getting fun.

Nice picture.  Like John, I'm in a quite a variety of facilities.
That one is beautiful.

Perhaps the most impressive wiring job I've seen is Zankel Hall, the new concert hall/multi-purpose room in the newly created basement of Carnegie Hall. 96-channels of BSS Soundweb and a mil-spec wiring job (whatever that means, it was artwork).  I regret I don't have pictures to share.

Anyway, I see 8451 in specs and implementation all the time for both mic and line level signals. While audiophiles would certainly argue against it for a number of reasons, it is an industry standard.

Rick, the foil shield/drain wire is in contact and indeed connects to the ground of each piece of equipment like you indicated.  However, I don't see this as any different than a braided shield as we see in most common touring grade mic cables. Could you expand on this a bit?

If you are suggesting that having a third conductor isolated from an additional braided or foil shield would be of benefit, I sort of understand.  However, the problem we are most likely to see on pin 1 (the shield) is current flow caused by impedance differences in the two audio signal conductors being capacitively coupled into the shield.    Having a third conductor wouldn't actually solve this.

The extra shield on the other hand could possibly minimize RF interference but it would still need to be landed to pin 1 or chassis on at least one end (or both if used with a phantom powered microphone).

This brings us to the next level of issues--the pin 1 problem, where pin 1 is foolishly connected by some manufacturers into the audio circuit ground instead of landed directly to the chassis at the point of entry.

All told, I think there are better cables than 8451, especially for mobile applications like taping and touring, but wouldn't hesitate to use it in a permanent install for mic or line level balanced connections.

Marc



 

Offline sickrick43

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2004, 05:38:11 PM »

Uh, brain fart.  I stand corrected.  I was researching in the wrong direction on this one.  Shield IS commonly used as the pin1 conductor, and in the instance of cable you described runs in concurrent twists with the insulated pin2&3 conductors.

The bulk of my recent number of years of cable installs, have been in the vein of high speed data (Cat5/Cat5E) installations, where the drain wire is not concurrently twisted and only acts as a chassis ground.

I retract my previous statement.  Thanks to Nutter for bumping me back on the correct track.

As far as "audiophile" grade cables go - they can run from the industry standard belkin catalog, thru Zoailla(sp?) silver cables, to even higher priced esoteric cables.  A good friend did ultra high-end audio sales.  $100 a foot for speaker cable.  $500 SPDIF interconnects.

I went with Canare Star Quads, based on research and recommendations for a high quality, mid-priced cable.

Rick
4 Track & CD Live Rig: TLM-170's->V3->SD-744T  CDLive->TC Finalzer Express->Tascam CDR-900SL

24 Track Rig: Audix D6/D2/D4/I5/SCX1-C/O->Whilrwind SPC82 ISO Splitters->DigimaxLT's->Alesis HD24 (Lucid GenX192 Master Clock)

Canon 1Ds MarkII - 16-35/2.8L - 24-70/2.8L - 70-200/2.8L IS - 180/f:3.5 Macro - 550EX Flash


"this isnt a dramatic bitchy exit, its just time to go." - Big Ray (queen of the dramatic bitchy exit)

Offline digital-havok

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2004, 06:25:50 PM »
Hey guys, That one picture is just one of 38 other IDF rooms like that.  This job is rediculously huge.  It's a 3.5mill A/V job and the company I work for has 2 field techs.  We were subbed out from another company to take care ofthe more techinal aspect of the job.  Theres well over 5000 floor/wall plates in the entire 1.5 million sq ft. building.

Here are a few other pictures of the facility, they're fairly deceiving because the camera can only cover such a certain area of something.

The Bottom level of the building can hold 17 NFL football fields in it.

Anyway,

Here is some additional pictures for your enjoyment.

Thanks.

P.S  This thread has really turned out to be an "eye-opener" for me as I see how other people look at the basis of how others look at "balanced" signals with using shields/stranded bare wire.


Offline digital-havok

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2004, 06:26:29 PM »
Another..

Offline digital-havok

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2004, 06:27:04 PM »
another...

Offline digital-havok

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2004, 06:28:05 PM »
Here is the Head-end room.  This room is estimated in at 4 Million dollars alone.  Its probably the size of a small house.  probably 1500sq foot room.


Offline zhianosatch

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Re:Is this Balanced???
« Reply #24 on: April 18, 2004, 03:27:08 PM »
Jesus H. Christ.

 

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