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Author Topic: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...  (Read 13035 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #90 on: July 14, 2020, 06:30:14 PM »
The black low discharge Maha's replaced the older white ones as far as I'm aware and are a more standard case size.  I had a couple older white ones fail (bloated case, replaced at no cost by Thomas Distributing) but have not had any problems with the black ones.

This is covered in the battery threads, but a foolproof method to catching them prior to eventual failure once they are nearing end of life is to measure the voltage of each while the batteries are still in the device and under load after the concert.  You will learn early on what the typical voltage measurement is at that point.  It will then be obvious when one or more begin to drop in voltage more than usual and/or more than the others in the set.  At that point replace the entire set.  I've not had any failures using this method with these batteries for the past 8 years and now trust them more than disposable alkalines. Had a disposable fail when I picked up a couple from a convenience store in an taping emergency, probably old stock.  The key is to measure voltage afterwards under load.  Without a load on the battery the voltage can return to nominal and appear fine.

 
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline perks

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #91 on: July 14, 2020, 06:57:51 PM »
buying a new Duracells 4-pack every other show will quickly add up.

Two shows is typically around 5-6 hours? I thought I read you could get a lot more recording time than that with a fresh set of batteries.

Yeah I was referring to the good ol' vintage Nbox not the newer circuit Nbox that most people are buying now. I think people are getting insane run times using the Nbox Platinum. Since most of the shows I record are a 3 hour event I've been satisfied using my old fashioned Nbox and flipping the batteries roughly every 3-4 hours giving me a 6 to 8 hour run time on 4 9V's.

I have no idea if there is  difference in the sound between the different options of Nboxes.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 07:01:49 PM by perks »
Mics: Schoeps MK5's, Schoeps MK41's, AT853's (C,SC,H,O), DPA 4061's
Preamps/converters: Schoeps VMS52UB (x2), Nbox (x2), E.A.A. PSP-2 (x2) Grace Lunatec V2, Sound Devices MP-2, DPA MMA6000, Naiant Tinybox v1.5, Naiant PiPsqueak, Church Ugly, Apogee Mini-Me, Benchmark AD2k+
Recorders: Tascam DR-680, Korg MR-1, Edirol R-05, Sony PCM-M10 (x2), Tascam DR-07, Marantz PMD-661, Sound Devices Mixpre-3

Offline daspyknows

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #92 on: July 14, 2020, 11:19:56 PM »
buying a new Duracells 4-pack every other show will quickly add up.

Two shows is typically around 5-6 hours? I thought I read you could get a lot more recording time than that with a fresh set of batteries.

Yeah I was referring to the good ol' vintage Nbox not the newer circuit Nbox that most people are buying now. I think people are getting insane run times using the Nbox Platinum. Since most of the shows I record are a 3 hour event I've been satisfied using my old fashioned Nbox and flipping the batteries roughly every 3-4 hours giving me a 6 to 8 hour run time on 4 9V's.

I have no idea if there is  difference in the sound between the different options of Nboxes.

Battery life is the biggest difference in the new version.  There was marginal difference in sound when we did an A/B years ago.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2020, 02:43:31 AM »
NiMH rechargables are generally a good option, but check what other Nbox users recommend for specific battery recommendations as the voltages, mAh ratings, and discharge curves are a different than standard "9V's".  Most are closer to either 7V or 10V (some need a specific charger).  If going with NiMH I recommend a low self discharge version as they hold a charge much longer (similar charge holding to alkalines) making them far more predictable both in the short run and over time as they age.   A set should last ~3 years or so.

they are nominal '8.4' or 9'6' depending on cell count, you trade voltage for capacity. that nominal voltage is closer to their discharged voltage, they run a little higher than that in steady state. "0.2C" would be discharging at 0.2X capacity of the battery (so 5 hours to discharge)
on left is 8.4V 300 mAh powerex precharge, on the right 9.6V 230mAh

the 9.6V "seems" to have more capacity but keep in mind its 0.2C is lower at 46 mA vs the 8.4V's 60 mA



dont sleep on the Li-ion 9V, lighter wight and much higher capacity, theres some discussion here, IRT the nbox

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=193133

AFAIK Nick never offered any specs on what is the minimum operating voltage for any of his products, so were kinda flying blind on anecdotes at this point. Any of the above solutions should offer acceptable capacity but the voltage range would be good to know. I imagine like most analog audio circuits as voltage dips performance begins to degrade gradually. The good news about the rechargeables is they deliver a much flatter curve. heres a li-ion



alkaline chemistry doesnt have nearly as flat of a curve as the rechargeable options above

« Last Edit: July 15, 2020, 03:05:02 AM by jerryfreak »
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Offline dactylus

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2020, 08:57:09 AM »
The white Powerex 9.6v rechargeable batteries are not the low self discharge version. They work just fine however for the same price you can get these....

https://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Precharged-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html

Using Duracell coppertop 9V will power your Nbox for a bit longer than the rechargeables (either version) but the cost of buying a new Duracells 4-pack every other show will quickly add up. I always looked at it like buying an additional ticket to a show plus throwing away hundreds of dead coppertops is just such a waste. The rechargeables will easily save you $1k over the life of the battery. The key is to get the correct charger for the batteries and make sure you are buying the 9.6V version and not the 9V rechargeable battery. Using a charger that can identify when the battery is going to crap out will make using rechargeable batteries foolproof. I have not had any issues with a rechargeable not performing in the field.

^

These work like a champ in both of my nBox Platinums.

https://www.thomasdistributing.com/Maha-Precharged-9V-96V-230-mAh-Low-Discharge-NIMH-Rechargeable-Battery_p_2455.html


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Offline Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2020, 04:53:08 PM »
I will take a contrary view, probably unpopular.  I had a couple instances where I used rechargables in my original NBox which was a bit of a power hog.  They were tested before the show, were AOK and crapped out in the middle of a Dylan show.  End of rechargables for me.  New AAAs, and the old ones go in the landfill.  Sorry Woodsy.  If they still have a few volts, then in the box for TV remotes and other devices until they crap out. 

I will not drop a couple hundred dollars for a ticket, sometimes, an airline flight and hotel, food and stuff to lose the tape of the show.  Not going to happen again, and hasn't.

All that said, I use rechargeables everywhere in my home, for the remotes, the clocks, the garage door opener, the gate security, and my handheld GPS, Beacon, and Radio I use for trail patrol.  I have boxes of rechargeables, and recharge them en mass when needed.  Woodsy is my friend.
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2020, 07:00:00 PM »
^ I totally understand and don't mean to come across as criticizing your methods at all, but more reliable testing really is the key.  If other readers have only one take-away from all this it should be that testing voltage prior to a show is an insufficiently reliable indication of capacity and state of life for any battery.  I was also burned doing that prior to recognizing why it isn't reliable. Testing after each show while still under load and watching for drop in voltage from the general trend over time is the only really reliable way I've found to catch failures before they occur.   As posted above:

This is covered in the battery threads, but a foolproof method to catching them prior to eventual failure once they are nearing end of life is to measure the voltage of each while the batteries are still in the device and under load after the concert.  You will learn early on what the typical voltage measurement is at that point.  It will then be obvious when one or more begin to drop in voltage more than usual and/or more than the others in the set.  At that point replace the entire set.  I've not had any failures using this method with these batteries for the past 8 years and now trust them more than disposable alkalines. Had a disposable fail when I picked up a couple from a convenience store in an taping emergency, probably old stock.  The key is to measure voltage afterwards under load.  Without a load on the battery the voltage can return to nominal and appear fine.

I'll add that for most reliable results, the device should be left powered on until the voltage measurement can be determined.  Use the probes of a voltmeter to check without taking the battery out of the circuit in the still-powered-on device. This has worked flawlessly for me in successfully determining the end of useful recording life over the course of 3 or 4 sets of 9.6V NiMH at this point.  They are then tossed or repurposed for less demanding applications.  Once habituated to doing this after every show I start paying particular attention to the results after a couple years of use as I know I'm getting closer to replacement time.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2020, 07:23:55 PM »
Another way of thinking about it, in light of determining reliability:

Using disposables, we rely on the credibility of the manufacturer, their quality control and the outlet through which we acquire the batteries (choosing known-good brands, far future use-by dates, etc).  With a reliable testing methodology, after determining that the batteries initially perform to specification over the course of a couple full length run-tests, we determine reliability by way of our own testing - assuming that credibility ourselves.

I assume a new copper top alkaline bought from a reliable source with a sufficiently far out use-by date will not fail (and most of the time it will not), but I've determined that my rechargeable will be reliable for at least the next show occurring within a reasonable amount of time.  And if one doesn't occur for months and I have any concern about it I can make another run-test prior.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline EmRR

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2020, 08:26:39 PM »
Yes ^

An extreme illustrative example, they used to make a kind of bias battery for tube gear that was very long life because it obly had to establish a voltage potential, with almost no load to speak of.  I found one roughly 20 years ago in a repairman's estate boxes, it was in circuit and it still measured voltage in 'as new range'.   Probably 60 years old at the time.  Put any sort of load on that, it'd suck down to 0V and that'd be the end.  A battery can show POTENTIAL very long, and that's not the same as CAPACITY.   Potential under expected load will show some voltage drop that gives a clue about capacity. 
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline Scooter123

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2020, 12:01:16 AM »
Yeah, all I am really saying is brand new batteries, as opposed to used rechargeables, will have a better success rate.  By the way, I check the voltage of new batteries before heading out to the venue. 

I have no data to support my opinion, only my own experience.  I'll embrace Woodsy the Owl in other ways.  I simply will not take the risk in a high profile stadium setting of battery failure. 
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

Offline heathen

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2020, 09:47:48 AM »
I will take a contrary view, probably unpopular.  I had a couple instances where I used rechargables in my original NBox which was a bit of a power hog.  They were tested before the show, were AOK and crapped out in the middle of a Dylan show.  End of rechargables for me.  New AAAs, and the old ones go in the landfill.  Sorry Woodsy.  If they still have a few volts, then in the box for TV remotes and other devices until they crap out. 

Would it kill you to dispose of all those batteries properly?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 11:14:01 AM by heathen »
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2020, 09:52:20 AM »
Perfectly fine to operate that way, but that blanket statement is not objective and testing methodology unreliable.  Nominally new batteries do not have a predictably better success rate, and checking voltage prior is a useful yet insufficient data point.  For the reasons stated above, properly tested used rechargeables are more predictably reliable than either brand new disposables or brand new rechargables.  It is the test history (which incurs a degree of "usedness") upon which a more trustworthy prediction of reliability can be made.

The "green" argument is entirely separate from reliability.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 09:58:44 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline EmRR

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2020, 11:16:23 AM »
Is there a FAQ anywhere here on battery recycling?  There just aren’t easy obvious options most places.  I deal with 12-16 wireless mics on a regular, sometimes daily, basis (8-10 hours run time) and we’ve found rechargables to be impractical and alkaline disposal/recycle options nonexistent in most locations.  We go through 30ish batteries a day, and try to give away the used on the basis they’re fine for tv remote/etc.  I have a lifetime supply for wireless keyboards, mouse, etc, even if they only last a week. 
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 12:50:54 PM by EmRR »
Mics: DPA 4060 w/MPS 6030 PSU/DAD6001/DAD4099, Neumann KM 131, KMR 81i, Oktava MK 012, Sennheiser MKH 105, MKH 20, MKH 30, MKH 40, MKH 800 TWIN, lots of other studio appropriate choices
Recorders: Zoom F8n, Sony MZ-R50, portable MOTU based multitrack DAW for client work

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2020, 11:25:41 AM »
alkalines are safe to landfill
only way to not create landfill is to not use 'em
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Offline heathen

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Re: Schoeps mk41? Doubting to take the plunge...
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2020, 12:04:09 PM »
alkalines are safe to landfill
only way to not create landfill is to not use 'em

"Safe" is a loaded term in this context.  I won't derail the thread further though.
Mics: AT4050ST | AT4031 | AT853 (C/SC) | Line Audio CM3 | Sennheiser e614 | Sennheiser MKE2 | DPA 4061 | CA-14 omni Pres: CA9200 | DPA d:vice Decks: Zoom F8 | Roland R-05

 

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