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Author Topic: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers  (Read 2896 times)

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Offline TheMetalist

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DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« on: September 27, 2020, 03:33:36 PM »
I have never been a DAT guy myself so I have zero experience using these machines. I've decided to get one in my arsenal strictly for transfers. What are the most versitile machines out there? I need one that sounds nice and can play any tape I put in it. Long play recordings included. As I won't use it regurarely I would prefer the range $200-600. If you can recommend any EU sellers that would be nice too.

It's really difficult to find DAT recorders in Sweden. There is a Sony DTC-57ES for sale now but to my knowledge it's a consumer level DAT recorder and it can't play 44,1 kHz? Would it be good enough for me or should I look elsewhere?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:37:46 PM by TheMetalist »
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Offline Len Moskowitz (Core Sound)

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2020, 03:37:14 PM »
Panasonic/Technics SV-3700 or SV-3900.
Len Moskowitz
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2020, 03:43:45 PM »
Panasonic/Technics SV-3700 or SV-3900.

Can they play LP recorded tapes?

Edit: The reason for this is that I will likely help a guy transfer some shows unfortunately recorded in Long Play.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 04:43:50 PM by TheMetalist »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2020, 05:11:41 PM »
Easier to find 32K long play support on the DAT side than on the recorder side, depending on what you’re transferring it to. I have one to transfer and i have to bust out an old sound card setup because none of my standalone devices record 32K.
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2020, 05:22:32 PM »
Easier to find 32K long play support on the DAT side than on the recorder side, depending on what you’re transferring it to. I have one to transfer and i have to bust out an old sound card setup because none of my standalone devices record 32K.

I noob question perhaps but is it impossible to convert it in post?
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2020, 05:35:19 PM »
It will absolutely get sample rate converted in post, in hq in software. I just don’t want to rely on the built-in dac chip on a 25-year-old deck.
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Offline Scooter123

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #6 on: September 27, 2020, 06:15:04 PM »
Sony 7030 or 7040 (newer version) were the top of line DAT machines in the history of that medium.  I have both.  There is no appreciable difference between the two, except the 7040 had remote capabilities.  I don't believe the electronics are different under the skin.  These machines were rack mounted beasts that weighed in at about 50 pounds and had a killer transport system.  They retailed for $10,000 in the day. 

I transcribed (converted) somewhere near 1,000 shows for a radio station  five years ago using these machines. 

The output is weird, only a single XLR for digital out, no SPDIF or Sony 7 Pin, so I think I had to use a HOSA AES Box to convert that signal to SPDIF, thence into a Tascam DR680.     
« Last Edit: September 27, 2020, 06:33:10 PM by Scooter123 »
Regards,
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mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
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Offline jb63

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2020, 07:37:58 PM »
Now that Paul is gone, where do we go to get decks serviced?
this is definitely not normal

Offline Scooter123

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #8 on: September 27, 2020, 07:49:37 PM »
Where are you located?  I have a place in North Hollywood, California for this type of deck.  They are not cheap.  $100 minimum usually and most repairs are less than $150
Regards,
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2020, 03:29:41 AM »
Sony 7030 or 7040 (newer version) were the top of line DAT machines in the history of that medium.  I have both.  There is no appreciable difference between the two, except the 7040 had remote capabilities.  I don't believe the electronics are different under the skin.  These machines were rack mounted beasts that weighed in at about 50 pounds and had a killer transport system.  They retailed for $10,000 in the day. 

I transcribed (converted) somewhere near 1,000 shows for a radio station  five years ago using these machines. 

The output is weird, only a single XLR for digital out, no SPDIF or Sony 7 Pin, so I think I had to use a HOSA AES Box to convert that signal to SPDIF, thence into a Tascam DR680.   

Seems like great machines but unfortunately they can't play LP recordings.
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2020, 03:35:18 AM »
how many do you have to transfer? i can roll them for you
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2020, 05:02:56 AM »
how many do you have to transfer? i can roll them for you
Thanks but this is just for fun. I'm interested to learn more about DAT and possibly help some friends with their tapes along the way.
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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2020, 09:55:47 AM »
Panasonic/Technics SV-3700 or SV-3900.
I suggest AVOIDING the SV3700.
Too many plastic parts.

Offline jb63

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2020, 10:02:18 AM »
Where are you located?  I have a place in North Hollywood, California for this type of deck.  They are not cheap.  $100 minimum usually and most repairs are less than $150

I'm trapped in the hell that is SLC. You can't even get a cassette player serviced here without a 7 month wait.
this is definitely not normal

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2020, 11:04:14 AM »
Now that Paul is gone, where do we go to get decks serviced?

This...  I have a R500 I want to have serviced...

Terry
***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

******

Offline jerryfreak

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2020, 11:06:34 AM »
Now that Paul is gone, where do we go to get decks serviced?

This...  I have a R500 I want to have serviced...

Terry

somebody posted here a few months ago they had a guy. midwest? cant remember. should be a relatively easy search
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2020, 02:54:32 PM »
So, is there any modern audio interfaces that can handle 12 bit/32 kHz?

How do you guys transfer your long play tapes?
"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2020, 12:36:55 PM »
Now that Paul is gone, where do we go to get decks serviced?
This...  I have a R500 I want to have serviced...
Terry

somebody posted here a few months ago they had a guy. midwest? cant remember. should be a relatively easy search

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194528.0

Sam at Rebooted Electronics. He's local to me in Kansas but is possibly willing to take in shipped work.

His specialty is cassette decks, turntables and vintage amps but he did a great job on two Tascam DA30s and two Nak MR2 cassette decks for me.

Doesn't cost anything to open up a dialog about what you want done.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2020, 12:40:39 PM by goodcooker »
MBHO KA300 || Joly Mod Oktava MK012 || NakCM300 || ADK A51 > Sound Devices 442 || Reference Audio Designs MS2 > Tascam DR701 || Marantz PMD620 || Tascam DR680
Transfers - Tascam DA30 or Fostex D5 (dats) or Nak MR2 (cassettes) > Sound Devices USB Pre

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Offline goodcooker

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2020, 12:52:35 PM »
So, is there any modern audio interfaces that can handle 12 bit/32 kHz?

How do you guys transfer your long play tapes?

I don't have any LP tapes and have never had to transfer anyone else's but I do have a Fostex D5 DAT deck that supports LP mode. I play DATs digital out to a Sound Devices USB Pre and use it as my soundcard to record in Wavelab. WL has 32kHz as an option for sampling frequency but if for some reason it didn't work I'd have to go analog out and use the USB Pre as A>D converter.

if anyone wants to send me a LP tape to test I'll be happy to.
MBHO KA300 || Joly Mod Oktava MK012 || NakCM300 || ADK A51 > Sound Devices 442 || Reference Audio Designs MS2 > Tascam DR701 || Marantz PMD620 || Tascam DR680
Transfers - Tascam DA30 or Fostex D5 (dats) or Nak MR2 (cassettes) > Sound Devices USB Pre

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
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Offline twatts (pants are so over-rated...)

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2020, 11:25:15 AM »
Now that Paul is gone, where do we go to get decks serviced?
This...  I have a R500 I want to have serviced...
Terry

somebody posted here a few months ago they had a guy. midwest? cant remember. should be a relatively easy search

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194528.0

Sam at Rebooted Electronics. He's local to me in Kansas but is possibly willing to take in shipped work.

His specialty is cassette decks, turntables and vintage amps but he did a great job on two Tascam DA30s and two Nak MR2 cassette decks for me.

Doesn't cost anything to open up a dialog about what you want done.

Thanks for that!

Terry

***Do you have PHISH, VIDA BLUE, JAZZ MANDOLIN PROJECT or any other Phish related DATs/Tapes/MDs that need to be transferred???  I can do them for you!!!***

I will return your DATs/Tapes/MDs.  I'll also provide Master FLAC files via DropBox.  PM me for details.

Sony PCM R500 > SPDIF > Tascam HD-P2
Nakamichi DR-3 > (Oade Advanced Concert Mod) Tascam HD-P2
Sony MDS-JE510 > Hosa ODL-276 > Tascam HD-P2

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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2020, 04:37:05 PM »
Is this lineage possible?

DAT-tape (LP mode, 12 bit/32 kHz) > DAT-recorder (with LP mode) > SPDIF > Tascam DR-100MKII

Seems like the DR-100MKII has SPDIF input and can do 32 kHz recordings. But what about 12 bits? What am I going to do with that?

Are there any issues converting 32 kHz to 44,1 or 48 kHz in post?
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 04:40:44 PM by TheMetalist »
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Offline jerryfreak

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2020, 06:00:23 PM »
you can resample to any sample rate in software, there are no restrictions

this link suggests the 12-bit is a non-linear format, so im unsure what sonic differences, if any, would result by dumping it into a 16-bit LPCM file

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=275407&qt-forum_new=0
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Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #22 on: October 19, 2020, 01:05:36 AM »
you can resample to any sample rate in software, there are no restrictions

this link suggests the 12-bit is a non-linear format, so im unsure what sonic differences, if any, would result by dumping it into a 16-bit LPCM file

https://www.soundonsound.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=275407&qt-forum_new=0

So, as long as  the DR-100MKII can handle 32 kHz I will be fine?
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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2020, 04:54:27 PM »
from some old post:

Nomad JB3 will read 32Khz recordings - it always will write as 16bit though (some 32Khz recordings are actually 12bit)

Offline live2496

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2020, 01:24:14 PM »
SPDIF format is still the same no matter what the source. 12 bit recording will still be 16-bit at the SPDIF output.
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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2020, 06:08:34 PM »
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=194528.0

Sam at Rebooted Electronics. He's local to me in Kansas but is possibly willing to take in shipped work.

His specialty is cassette decks, turntables and vintage amps but he did a great job on two Tascam DA30s and two Nak MR2 cassette decks for me.

Doesn't cost anything to open up a dialog about what you want done.

I spoke to Sam and sent him a DA-20. He is currently working on it.
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Re: DAT recorder for transfers
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2020, 02:54:16 PM »
Sony 7030 or 7040 (newer version) were the top of line DAT machines in the history of that medium.  I have both.  There is no appreciable difference between the two, except the 7040 had remote capabilities.  I don't believe the electronics are different under the skin.  These machines were rack mounted beasts that weighed in at about 50 pounds and had a killer transport system.  They retailed for $10,000 in the day. 

I transcribed (converted) somewhere near 1,000 shows for a radio station  five years ago using these machines. 

The output is weird, only a single XLR for digital out, no SPDIF or Sony 7 Pin, so I think I had to use a HOSA AES Box to convert that signal to SPDIF, thence into a Tascam DR680.   


PCM-7040 is the refined and final version of the 70x0 series there where 4 decks in this series


PCM-7010 - a modular deck that came in many configurations - only one in the series that supported 32khz playback and SPDIF output (with the right module installed)
PCM-7030 - a modular deck that is a refinement of the 7010
PCM-7050 - a fully loaded 7030
PCM-7040 - a non modular single board revision of the 7030/50


7010’s and 30’s where sold in many configs - analog only, analog w/ timecode, analog w/digital io, etc (also there was an option for editing RAM)


The 7010 had an AES/EBU digital I/O option and separately a IEC/SPDIF option card - some of which had SDIF-2 jacks as well


The 7040 is a single board design and isn’t modular - it is not as deep or heavy as the rest of the 70x0 series - the transport is based on the SDT-5000/7000 series dds drives and some parts are interchangeable - I replaced a motor and the loading mech on my 7040 with ones off a SDT-5000

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Offline JEMS

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #27 on: December 31, 2020, 08:07:10 PM »
I have never seen a 12-bit DAT. Is it possible that's just a typo? Even at 32khz, the bit rate was still 16.

Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2021, 04:58:25 AM »
I have never seen a 12-bit DAT. Is it possible that's just a typo? Even at 32khz, the bit rate was still 16.


https://www.minidisc.org/dat-heads-faq.html:
Quote
DAT defines the following recording modes with the following
performance specifications...

   2 channel 48KHz Sample rate, 16-bit linear encoding, 120 min max.
   Frequency Response 2-22KHz (+-0.5dB)
   SN = 93 dB   DR = 93 dB
 
   2 channel 44.1Khz Sample rate, 16-bit linear encoding, 120 min max
   Frequency Response 2-22KHz (+-0.5dB)
   SN = 93 dB   DR = 93 dB
 
   2 channel 32KHz Sample Rate, 12-bit non-linear encoding, 240 min max
   Frequency Response 2-14.5KHz (+-0.5dB)
   SN = 92 dB   DR = 92 dB


Someone at the Steve Hoffman forums explained it like this:
Quote
Note that there are two incompatible 32kHz standards:

16-bit linear, which runs the tape at full speed (broadcast satellite
standard, used only in Japan?)

...and 12-bit non-linear, which runs the
tape at half speed (so you can get 4 hours on a tape). The second is
also called "long-play" mode. The Panasonic sv-3700 uses 16-bit
linear, Sony decks (and Denons?) use 12-bit non-linear.


Here are a few samples of DAT players recording 32 kHz/12 bit:
Sony PCMR700 - https://www.broadcaststore.com/store/model_detail.cfm?id=665508
Sony DTC-A7 - http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/dtca7.php
Tascam DA-20 - http://www.datrecorders.co.uk/da20.php


Here are the two portable DAT players used to record the shows (in LP mode) I'm about to transfer:
Sony D7 and D8 - https://www.gracey.co.uk/specifications/sony_d7-s1.htm
Quote
Signal Format :
Sampling Frequency - Record : 48 kHz / 32 kHz analogue / digital inputs
Sampling Frequency - Playback : 48 kHz / 41.1 kHz analogue / digital
D/A Conversion : 1-bit
A/D Conversion : 1-bit
Encoding/Decoding SP : 16-bit linear
Encoding/Decoding LP : 12-bit non-linear


I may be stupid but I don't know the difference between linear or non-linear. Can someone explain this, please? Sorry if it is a silly question...

16 bit linear
12 bit non-linear

Why are they different?

Edit: Is linear always divisible by 8? Just a guess... 12 is not.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2021, 03:59:56 PM by TheMetalist »
"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

Offline morst

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2021, 06:14:31 PM »
PCM encoding is considered linear because the steps are all the same "size" (voltage and time)
Not all encoding must be linear.
ATRAC for instance, (Sony minidisc format) and DSD are types which are non-linear.

Offline TheMetalist

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2021, 06:30:15 AM »
PCM encoding is considered linear because the steps are all the same "size" (voltage and time)
Not all encoding must be linear.
ATRAC for instance, (Sony minidisc format) and DSD are types which are non-linear.

Thank you for explaining this.
"The music is your passport - Your magic key - To all the madness that awaits you." B.L. '86

Offline morst

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Re: DAT Long Play 12 bit/32 kHz transfers
« Reply #31 on: January 07, 2021, 10:56:53 AM »
PCM encoding is considered linear because the steps are all the same "size" (voltage and time)
Not all encoding must be linear.
ATRAC for instance, (Sony minidisc format) and DSD are types which are non-linear.

Thank you for explaining this.
Thanks for the opportunity.
Imagine the savings, if you could figure out which samples needed more resolution and which required less?!

 

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