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Author Topic: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s  (Read 1763 times)

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Offline OhioHead

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3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« on: April 06, 2021, 09:30:04 AM »
Hey folks, thinking about adding a 3rd mic to pick up my low end bass w/ my Tele’s ELA.

I do not have a budget per say (< $500 ideal), would consider used. 

What suggestions do you have?  I will be moving away from the Naiant Littlebox > M-10 combo in the next couple
of weeks.

I have 5 shows up on LMA under “tapertodd”
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 09:32:31 AM by OhioHead »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2021, 11:11:21 AM »
Easy.  I'd record 4 channels and run a pair of DPA 4061 omnis attached to the ends of telescopic TV antenna to allow adjustment of their spacing to whatever you are able to get away with, from the width of your current mic bar up to 5 or 6 feet total max.  You should be able to find a pair used for around that price, new would be a bit more than twice that.

Yes it's an oddball solution, but works so well I'll never give it up as the cornerstone atop which all my rigs are built.  Spaced omni bass is just so much richer and righter to my ears.

Perhaps substitute subcardioids if you don't think you can pull them out past 2' wide and/or record in a lot of boomy rooms indoors from midway or further back.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 11:13:27 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2021, 12:13:51 PM »
Do you have the omni capsules? If outdoors, I'm a fan of a spaced omni pair with a super directional mic panned center, like a hypercardioid or even a shotgun.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2021, 12:44:00 PM »
I do it inside too, using less of the omnis, but have other mics in play as well.  Subcards or wide/open cardioids are a better alternative indoors.. or a pair of directionals like cardioids or supercards with a third microphone (or X/Y or M/S pair) in the center, which is most likely to work well inside.  It won't achieve the stated goal of extending bass sensitivity, but that's often not as useful indoors as using some EQ in such a situation anyway.

My basic ideal conceptual starting point for pretty much all concert taping is a spaced pair of lower-directivity mics with a more directional stereo pair between them in the center.  Choice of center configs.  Inside I increase the directivity of the spaced pair.  I have personal preferences for that which I can share if you like, along with why, but in my experience that basic combination is an essential baseline for more than two microphone channels.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 09:46:48 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2021, 12:52:55 PM »
Do you have the omni capsules? If outdoors, I'm a fan of a spaced omni pair with a super directional mic panned center, like a hypercardioid or even a shotgun.

Yes, I own Omni capsules for my ELA’s, I don’t use them much because the seem to pick up more crowd talking in an indoor situation, i don’t recall ever using them outside.

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2021, 01:02:11 PM »
I do it inside too, using less of the omnis depending, but have other mics in play too.  Subcards or wide/open cardioids are a good alternative if indoors recording is primary.

My basic ideal conceptual starting point for pretty much all concert taping is a spaced pair of lower-directivity mics with a more directional stereo pair between them in the center.  Choice of center configs. I have personal preferences for that which I can share if you like, along with why, but in my experience that basic combination is an essential baseline for more than two microphone channels.

Do you have any photos of the wide spaced omni’s you describe above?  In one of the indoor venues I tape consistently in, Woodland Tavern (Columbus, Ohio), the room is a rectangle & you are unable to be DFC since you in the line of sight of sound/light person, so you are typically 2 to 4’ left or right of DFC 20’ish feet from the stage, I typically open tape but fly solo so having a bunch of extra “feet” in the air scares me, when I go to the bathroom, etc. I was thinking of the ELA’s DIN or ORTF w/ a mic in the middle for bass.

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #6 on: April 06, 2021, 01:26:41 PM »
Here's a picture of my setup the other night. One of my pairs got a little knocked but it turned out ok.

https://i.imgur.com/vCbzAMO.jpg

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #7 on: April 06, 2021, 02:10:16 PM »
Wow!  What are mic’s and is the show posted on LMA for me to listen to (looks like a beautiful day to be outside!).

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #8 on: April 06, 2021, 02:12:42 PM »
Wow!  What are mic’s and is the show posted on LMA for me to listen to (looks like a beautiful day to be outside!).

It was a beautiful day for sure. Here's the kickdown link: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=196603.0

Mics are:

Spaced Omnis: AKG c480b + ck62 omni capsules
Shotguns: AKG c568eb
Hypercardioids: AKG ck63 capsules + nbob actives

I ended up not using the ck63 recording(as they didn't sound great this time), so the archive version is the omnis plus shotguns.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 02:14:52 PM by DavidPuddy »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2021, 03:28:59 PM »
I was thinking of the ELA’s DIN or ORTF w/ a mic in the middle for bass.

My apologies, we kind of jumped ahead on you in the discussion.

A single omni in the middle between your Telefunkens used in your preferred stereo pair configuration is the obvious and simplest answer. That arrangement will perform best if you low-pass filter the omni.  This will be the most compact arrangement and will achieve the goal of extending low frequency response.

If you don't low-pass the omni it will help to space the stereo pair wider than you ordinarily would, retaining the same mic angles.  Twice as far apart as normal would be entirely reasonable if possible. The full range omni will fill in the middle.  It will also pickup more room and audience noise, but the general ambient quality and "air" will be improved by the combination of it along with the wider-spaced stereo pair.  If you choose not to space the stereo pair wider (or low-pass the omni) the recording image will be somewhat narrower and more center heavy than without the omni, but that may acceptable.  I think this is a good option overall and perhaps most appropriate for you. 

Getting back to the basic combination approach I mentioned above, this is a version of that, only applied in a different way.  The basic thing is a spaced pair with something in the middle.  It could be wide omnis with a stereo pair in the middle, or this kind of "somewhat wider spaced than typical" near-spaced directional pair with a third microphone (or coincident pair) in the middle.   Much less imposing than the wide omni setups.

If you want to go further with that arrangement, its a good starting point to play around with adding a fig-8, coincident with the center omni.  That turns it into a Mid/Side pair between the directional mic pair.  You then gain options for dialing in the overall ambient width and blend afterwards which is especially valuable to me.  In not so good rooms you can use a directional mic in the center instead of the omni, with or without the coincident fig-8 M/S option.  Hard to go wrong with something like that indoors in a tough room: three directional mics with a center being a M/S pair, the outside pair spaced about twice as much as a typical near-spaced arrangement like ORTF or DIN and pointed PAS.  You can use the same basic arrangement and swap it around for outdoor use with less directional mics like omnis spaced further to either side of a directional Mid/Side pair in the center.  Gold.

I typically open tape but fly solo so having a bunch of extra “feet” in the air scares me, when I go to the bathroom, etc.

I hear you.  The setups above aren't too bad that way.  Twice the spacing is about right, but you can use less.  I like the miniature omnis on telescopic TV antennas because I can accommodate most any situation, solo.  I just extend them as much as I can and feel comfortable with, and can even offset them more one way than the other if necessary to avoid a line of sight or whatever.  But its a weird way of doing things and I don't expect anyone to take it up simply because it works well for me.  I love to talk about it and why it works though.  ;)

I'll post some photos for you later of both the telescopic omni setup, and of a near-spaced directional pair with a Mid/Side pair in the middle.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2021, 03:52:18 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2021, 01:57:48 PM »
Thank you Gutbucket!

Things I learned:

add or enable the low filter pass (to the potential 3rd Omni mic)
Omni mic dead center on the mic bar
space the outside mic’s 2x the distance as normal w/ the same angle (ortf or din recommended) to speaker array (1 pair of mic’s just PAS)
trying running my Omni cap’s outside to see how this improves low end response vs my card cap or hyper caps (vs. buying a 3rd pair of additional mic’s)

Things that I am “now” thinking:

it may be cheaper/easier to purchase a pair of dedicated mic’s to pick up the low end better (suggestions in sub $500 range?)?
When taping more then 2 mic’s do you record at level or two lower then your main mic’s?
If running 2 pairs of balanced mic’s (outdoors or indoors) what is your recommend mic positions (let’s assume 1 pair is card’s or hypers, 1 pair is omni’s)?

Thank you all for the feedback!

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2021, 03:42:29 PM »
Ohio, here is the motherlode of information to read on OMT; GB's PDFs really explain it well: https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=96009.msg2250377#msg2250377. The way I have approached it for four channels is to space the omnis 3' and place hypers or supers XY pointed at the stacks (PAS). Just splitting the omnis is going to get you a lot more bass. I used two camera rails 15mm diameter connected together. Not hard at all to manage. Record everything at the same level the adjust to taste in post. I am sure GB will have more to add. Example of a recent OMT5 setup I used.



AT853s omnis spaced 3'
ATM 41HE hypers XY-PAS
Nady RSM-5 ribbon in the middle
Mics: Studio Projects C4 (C,O,H); AT853Rx (C,O); JVC M510 (shotgun); Samson CO2; Nady RSM-5
Recorders: Tascam DR-70D x2
Pres: Sound Devices MixPre; Edirol UA-5 x2 (BMp2+); Shure FP11 x2

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2021, 03:54:36 PM »
Thank you for the feedback, your picture looks a lot more manageable.

In your picture your mic’s look XY and not PAS, correct?

I will slowly digest Gut’s PDF, I am mic set up 101 level and most of you are PhD level ;)!

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2021, 04:00:48 PM »
Thanks fireon!
^using inexpensive miniature AT853 omnis, similar to Church audio or Naiant omnis.


Comments and clarifications I was working on as fireon posted above (your comments/questions are in bold italics)

add or enable the low filter pass (to the potential 3rd Omni mic)
^ I suggest low pass filtering the omni if you cannot, or choose not to space the directional pair wider than you otherwise would when using that pair alone.  Doing so helps prevent the omni's contribution in the midrange and higher from making the stereo image narrower. It can also help reduce comb-filtering and phasiness which might arise from the omni not being spaced sufficiently far from the other microphones that it will be mixed in with.

Spacing the directional pair farther apart allows the omni to be used full range without collapsing the stereo image, and helps reduce the potential for problems when the channels are summed together. In that case the microphone array is designed to incorporate the omni's full range contribution.  This will pickup more room and audience sound.  You can still EQ shape the omni channel or low pass it, or do whatever works, all best decided by ear afterward to your preference.  I like using my omni channels full range and that's one reason my arrays have as much spacing between the omnis, and between them and the other channels, that I'm able to manage.

Omni mic dead center on the mic bar
^
Nice to have symmetry, but won't matter at all if you low pass the omni. In that case you can put the omni anywhere, it just fits nicely in the middle.  If running the omni full range it is acting as part of the near-spaced arrangement with the directional microphones at mid and high frequencies and you'll want to have it centered.

With wide-spaced omnis plus a stereo pair in the center, symmetry is nice but less important.  I'll telescopically extend one omni less far out from the center than the other if I need to.  Rather than only extending the opposite omni far enough to match, I'll extended it out as far as I can in order to get as much spacing between omnis that I can.  I have a 3 point near-spaced arrangement in the center between the omnis and I don't alter its spacing, but I will alter the spacing between each omni and that center arrangement without qualms.

space the outside mic’s 2x the distance as normal w/ the same angle (ortf or din recommended) to speaker array (1 pair of mic’s just PAS)
If you like ORTF or DIN, keep using those angles.  Space them further or not based on if you plan to low pass the omni or not as mentioned above.  Generally, when adding a 3rd mic in the middle and using it full-range, you'll want to double the spacing between the outside pair, or increase the angle between them, or some combination of both.  It generally makes more sense to increase spacing rather than increasing angle, otherwise the the pair end up pointing sideways far off-axis from the stage and PA.

With wide-spaced omnis, I like a coincident pair in the center more than a near-spaced pair.  This sort of combines the best of both approaches.  X/Y with super/hypercardioids works really well.  (The 3-point arrangement I mentioned above that I use is actually a Mid/Side pair in the center, in combination with a pair of supercardioids angled +/- 45 degrees spaced about 12-15" or so to either side of center).

PAS works well in general for taping because it puts the microphones on-axis with the primary source of direct sound.  The ">>improved PAS table<<" link in my signature line points to a TS thread with a table that helps figure the most appropriate spacing between a PAS pair, as determined by the angle between mics needed to point them at the stacks.  It's a really good option for a running simple single near-spaced stereo pair.  It also applies when using an omni in the center, and a bit more spacing can be added if possible when it is run full range.  (I have enough complexity going on up there already and don't have an ability to change the angle of the near-spaced supercards working in conjunction with the M/S pair in the middle, leaving them at +/-45 degrees all the time)

trying running my Omni cap’s outside to see how this improves low end response vs my card cap or hyper caps (vs. buying a 3rd pair of additional mic’s)
^Best way to really figure it out is to give it a try.  You'll get loads of bass, especially in comparison to the hypers.  Maybe too much.  Some EQ goes a long way in dialing it in.  The recording with omnis are likely to have less upper midrange presence so you might want to play around with bumping up that range with EQ as well.  If you run just the pair of omni's by themselves, spacing them 3' apart is a good arrangement.  If you have another pair in the center you might even space them more if you can.



Things that I am “now” thinking:

it may be cheaper/easier to purchase a pair of dedicated mic’s to pick up the low end better (suggestions in sub $500 range?)?
Good sounding omnis can be had for less cost than good sounding directional mics.  I like the miniature DPAs because the sound great, are weatherproof and are so small and light they are easy to support at wide spreads and I can do other unusual things with them.  Other miniature lavaliere omnis can work similarly at less cost. "Normal sized" omnis work fine too, they just take a larger bar to support at wide distances.  I'm sure other folks will post suggestions about what might work for you.

When taping more then 2 mic’s do you record at level or two lower then your main mic’s?
I set trims to achieve good levels and avoid clipping, then balance everything out later in the mix.  The mix really needs to be determined afterward by ear, and that is one of the great flexibilities that comes from running more than two microphones in an array.  The most appropriate mix level between channels is basically impossible to predict at the show. Actual trim settings between channels will depend on the sensitivity of the microphones. Even if the sensitivities are the same, you may find you need to turn down the trim on the omnis once the music starts and the subs kick in as there is far more energy present in the low frequencies and omnis will eat it up.

If running 2 pairs of balanced mic’s (outdoors or indoors) what is your recommend mic positions (let’s assume 1 pair is card’s or hypers, 1 pair is omni’s)?
As touched on above, I'd suggest trying the cards or hypers in X/Y in the center between omnis spaced 3' apart or more if easily achievable.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2021, 04:18:00 PM »
I will slowly digest Gut’s PDF, I am mic set up 101 level and most of you are PhD level ;)!

Yeah we pretty much immediately advanced you straight to the graduate level class.  Best to keep it simple with 3 or 4 mics total.  I mentioned what I'm doing (in parenthesis in the post above) primarily to clarify the "why" part of things, not to suggest that you try to do it that way.

The Improved PAS table will take you far with just two mics.  Start with that.  It's the best intro level starting point I can suggest.  Maybe work on enhancing low frequency with a some broad EQ adjustment, you may not need the omni(s) at all, especially indoors.  Omnis do work particularly well outdoors. So if you do much outdoor recording and are game for some of this stuff give it a go.

I need to check and revise that OMT PDF.  It's been a few years since I put it together and I never went back to edit or extend it.  The basic 3 and four channel configs are applicable and easy enough though.  Checkout the Improved PAS thing first!
« Last Edit: April 07, 2021, 04:21:14 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2021, 05:08:51 PM »
Thank you for the feedback, your picture looks a lot more manageable.

In your picture your mic’s look XY and not PAS, correct?

I will slowly digest Gut’s PDF, I am mic set up 101 level and most of you are PhD level ;)!

It is XY-PAS, so the angle of the XY is pointed right at the stacks (one mic to one stack and the other to the other stack) to get the most direct sound. Lol. I was right there with you. Just spread the omnis and do directionals in the middle. That's it!
Mics: Studio Projects C4 (C,O,H); AT853Rx (C,O); JVC M510 (shotgun); Samson CO2; Nady RSM-5
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2021, 05:33:51 PM »
It is XY-PAS, so the angle of the XY is pointed right at the stacks (one mic to one stack and the other to the other stack) to get the most direct sound.

OhioHead- This can work really well, but also try a 90-degree X/Y angle and compare.  Whichever sounds best to you is the right choice. 

200 level course comment-  PAS is likely to make the angle between mics considerably less than 90-degrees in most situations, or maybe more if very close to the stage.  Ordinarily that could pose a problem for Blumlien on its own, but it may be just the ticket between the spaced omnis which provide the missing width and envelopment.

300 level course comment- If its not the ticket, you can increase the effective X/Y angle of the center pair with a Mid/Side stereo tool or stereo width control, adjusting for best blend of the imaging across the center from the X/Y pair with the image width and ambient pickup of the omnis.  This is a way to sort of get the best of both approaches from a coincident center pair- clear pickup of direct sound from the PA by being on-axis, along with the most optimal stereo width and blend.

Quote
Just spread the omnis and do directionals in the middle. That's it!
^ I should work on being this concise!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 10:32:20 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 09:55:43 AM »
Any recommendations on Omni mic’s or a cardioid pair for the middle, folks (sub $500)?

I could run my Tele’s as Omni’s on the outside of the mic bar, as suggested by Gut would need to purchase a loss pass filter add on (if one exists), I could run my Church 14’s in the middle of the omni’s.  I am going to moving from a M-10 to a “new to me” SD Mixr 6 and would prefer to run XLR’s vs. mini plug + a battery pack into the SD (if this even supported).

I am slowing reading thru the Mixr thread (I read thread 7 yesterday & started on thread 1).

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 10:20:14 AM »
Any recommendations on Omni mic’s or a cardioid pair for the middle, folks (sub $500)?

I could run my Tele’s as Omni’s on the outside of the mic bar, as suggested by Gut would need to purchase a loss pass filter add on (if one exists), I could run my Church 14’s in the middle of the omni’s.  I am going to moving from a M-10 to a “new to me” SD Mixr 6 and would prefer to run XLR’s vs. mini plug + a battery pack into the SD (if this even supported).

I am slowing reading thru the Mixr thread (I read thread 7 yesterday & started on thread 1).
easy one- the low pass filter can be applied in post. The MIxr 6 should also have a low pass filter onboard. it is software not hardware (these days, for most recordists  8)...).
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 10:50:55 AM »
Yep.  That way you can listen to the difference with and without a low-pass filter on the omnis and make a decision about which way works better.  The decision may be different depending on the recording situation as well as the microphone arrangement, so its particularly helpful to be able to apply it afterward when you can take your time and listen carefully.  Also try EQ'ing the omnis in various ways instead of straight low-passing as a less dramatic form of filtering than low-passing, as you may find you like what the omnis contribute at higher frequencies and may just need to tailor hat to fit nicely with the center pair, and vice-versa.

That's more likely to apply when you are running the omnis spaced apart with the directional pair in the middle, rather than a single omni between a near-spaced directional pair where the low-pass may be more helpful.  But doing it afterward you can try it both ways in either case.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 01:01:20 PM »
Thank you Gut, awesome detailed response!

Any suggestions on a pair of mic’s (sub $500) for the middle, if I use my Telefunken’s as omni’s?

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 01:27:02 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 02:12:53 PM »
CAFS omnis with a stereo mic center......delicious




Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


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"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2021, 03:05:47 PM »
DPA 406x series is what we bought for this tiny footprint application. not within the $500 budget tho. (we paid $850 for a 4061 sdk used)

this thread has a photo of our AKG ck22's on the camera rails.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191128.0

OhioHead I recommend using camera rails for other mounting type purposes, but GB's and capnhooks foldable antennaes are lighter weight (and less $$)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2021, 03:55:25 PM »
CAFS omnis with a stereo mic center......delicious

You've got me homesick for the Spirit of the Swuannee porch stage!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2021, 06:37:05 PM »
That's a nice damn set-up, capn!
Mics: Studio Projects C4 (C,O,H); AT853Rx (C,O); JVC M510 (shotgun); Samson CO2; Nady RSM-5
Recorders: Tascam DR-70D x2
Pres: Sound Devices MixPre; Edirol UA-5 x2 (BMp2+); Shure FP11 x2

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2021, 07:09:57 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?

Gave away my Church omni’s shortly after getting into taping as thank you to guy who taught me the super basics of taping w/ a Church rig, :oof on my part (plus as a recall I could not order w/ longer 1 piece lead).

Primary taping use would be “jambands,” so for example Goose, TTB, WSP, Marcus King, GSBG, John K, etc, check out my few posted shows on LMA (I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 07:14:25 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?

Gave away my Church omni’s shortly after getting into taping as thank you to guy who taught me the super basics of taping w/ a Church rig, :oof on my part (plus as a recall I could not order w/ longer 1 piece lead).

Primary taping use would be “jambands,” so for example Goose, TTB, WSP, Marcus King, GSBG, John K, etc, check out my few posted shows on LMA (I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).

tapertodd should show my shows on LMA (Marcus King Jan/February 2019 @ A & R Bar, TTB Cincy summer 2019, Goose Aug 2019 @ Skully’s).

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2021, 10:16:09 PM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 07:13:02 AM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:

:medal - when I got back into taping in 2015, I caught a lot of shows around Cbus (only taper present) that I transferred to hard drive and did not touch, it is “time” to fire up the old PC and find my notes on uploading shows (solo Billy String fall 2015/spring 2016, John Mullins (of ekoostik hookah) before he passed).

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2021, 07:53:18 AM »
CAFS omnis with a stereo mic center......delicious

You've got me homesick for the Spirit of the Swuannee porch stage!

Me too Lee, any one of their stages will be suitable after this drought.
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #31 on: April 09, 2021, 11:07:43 AM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:

:medal - when I got back into taping in 2015, I caught a lot of shows around Cbus (only taper present) that I transferred to hard drive and did not touch, it is “time” to fire up the old PC and find my notes on uploading shows (solo Billy String fall 2015/spring 2016, John Mullins (of ekoostik hookah) before he passed).

My buddy "Brain" lives in Columbus. I'm surprised you haven't met him at a BS show.

Let me know if you need help with any of them.

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #32 on: April 09, 2021, 02:00:26 PM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:

:medal - when I got back into taping in 2015, I caught a lot of shows around Cbus (only taper present) that I transferred to hard drive and did not touch, it is “time” to fire up the old PC and find my notes on uploading shows (solo Billy String fall 2015/spring 2016, John Mullins (of ekoostik hookah) before he passed).

My buddy "Brain" lives in Columbus. I'm surprised you haven't met him at a BS show.

Let me know if you need help with any of them.

Would love help on these shows, I have taped shows w/ Old & in the Way from here, a couple shows w/ a GSBG taper from NW Ohio, a guy from Middletown and a super nice taper from west of Dayton.

Please reach out to Brain to see if he would would be ok w/ passing his number to me via PM’s; I know I have taped w/ a couple other Cbus tapers but was unable to get phone numbers post show.

I have reached out to Naiant to learn more about his X-R Omni low sensitivity mic’s for my needs.

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #33 on: June 14, 2021, 11:45:25 AM »
Thanks everyone w/ my initial request on a 3rd mic.

Since I have started this thread I have purchased a used SD MixPre 6 (w/o 32 bit float), I have been in contact w/ Jon of Naiant (Omni mic’s not for sale (yet)), custom mic mounts from Shapeways (DIN & ORTF) & bought a 24” rail from FollowingBob.  I have Goose this Friday evening, I am thinking hyper card’s, would you run DIN, ORTF or 24” spaced PAS (I figure I will be taping left or right of the SBD booth) which is approximate 35 to 50 yards from the stage & 10 to 15 feet in front of the relay towers @ Buckeye Lake?

I am not super familiar w/ the MixPre 6 yet, so I am planning on running Tele’s > Tele tube amp > Naiant Littlebox > Sony M-10 (I have been using this set up for about 5 years), just can’t decide on a mic “positioning.”

Thank you for your feedback!

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #34 on: June 14, 2021, 01:09:05 PM »
Hard to go wrong with PAS if the most optimal spacing between microphones can be used based on the angle between them. You won't really know what that angle is until you set up, so best if you have the ability to adjust the spacing between mics as well as angle at setup time.  Here's the general trend- From closer (wider PAS angle) you'll use less spacing and from farther away (narrower PAS angle, your use more). A spacing of 24" between microphones ends up being optimal for a PAS angle between mics of somewhere between 45 to 50 degrees. 

Below is a copy of the PAS look-up table that makes figuring the optimal spacing simple.  To use it, first determine the angle between the PA speakers as viewed from the recording position - one easy way to do that without a protractor is to measure the apparent distance between the PA speakers in "fists", a balled-fist held at arms length and viewed through one squinted eye covers about 10 degrees, so for example 6 fist widths between PA speakers = about 60 degrees.   Find that angle in the first column of the table, then follow the corresponding row over to the cell in the column under the pickup pastern being used.  For hypers use the supercardioid column.  So for this example of a 60 degree PAS angle, the optimal spacing for super/hypercardioids will be around 16".

« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 01:11:25 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #35 on: June 15, 2021, 11:12:57 AM »
Thank you Gutbucket, I went down the PAS thread (before posting), your hard work on the chart is appreciated by the community!

 

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