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Author Topic: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s  (Read 2161 times)

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Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #15 on: April 07, 2021, 05:08:51 PM »
Thank you for the feedback, your picture looks a lot more manageable.

In your picture your mic’s look XY and not PAS, correct?

I will slowly digest Gut’s PDF, I am mic set up 101 level and most of you are PhD level ;)!

It is XY-PAS, so the angle of the XY is pointed right at the stacks (one mic to one stack and the other to the other stack) to get the most direct sound. Lol. I was right there with you. Just spread the omnis and do directionals in the middle. That's it!
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Online Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #16 on: April 07, 2021, 05:33:51 PM »
It is XY-PAS, so the angle of the XY is pointed right at the stacks (one mic to one stack and the other to the other stack) to get the most direct sound.

OhioHead- This can work really well, but also try a 90-degree X/Y angle and compare.  Whichever sounds best to you is the right choice. 

200 level course comment-  PAS is likely to make the angle between mics considerably less than 90-degrees in most situations, or maybe more if very close to the stage.  Ordinarily that could pose a problem for Blumlien on its own, but it may be just the ticket between the spaced omnis which provide the missing width and envelopment.

300 level course comment- If its not the ticket, you can increase the effective X/Y angle of the center pair with a Mid/Side stereo tool or stereo width control, adjusting for best blend of the imaging across the center from the X/Y pair with the image width and ambient pickup of the omnis.  This is a way to sort of get the best of both approaches from a coincident center pair- clear pickup of direct sound from the PA by being on-axis, along with the most optimal stereo width and blend.

Quote
Just spread the omnis and do directionals in the middle. That's it!
^ I should work on being this concise!
« Last Edit: April 08, 2021, 10:32:20 AM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2021, 09:55:43 AM »
Any recommendations on Omni mic’s or a cardioid pair for the middle, folks (sub $500)?

I could run my Tele’s as Omni’s on the outside of the mic bar, as suggested by Gut would need to purchase a loss pass filter add on (if one exists), I could run my Church 14’s in the middle of the omni’s.  I am going to moving from a M-10 to a “new to me” SD Mixr 6 and would prefer to run XLR’s vs. mini plug + a battery pack into the SD (if this even supported).

I am slowing reading thru the Mixr thread (I read thread 7 yesterday & started on thread 1).

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2021, 10:20:14 AM »
Any recommendations on Omni mic’s or a cardioid pair for the middle, folks (sub $500)?

I could run my Tele’s as Omni’s on the outside of the mic bar, as suggested by Gut would need to purchase a loss pass filter add on (if one exists), I could run my Church 14’s in the middle of the omni’s.  I am going to moving from a M-10 to a “new to me” SD Mixr 6 and would prefer to run XLR’s vs. mini plug + a battery pack into the SD (if this even supported).

I am slowing reading thru the Mixr thread (I read thread 7 yesterday & started on thread 1).
easy one- the low pass filter can be applied in post. The MIxr 6 should also have a low pass filter onboard. it is software not hardware (these days, for most recordists  8)...).
music IS love

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Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2021, 10:50:55 AM »
Yep.  That way you can listen to the difference with and without a low-pass filter on the omnis and make a decision about which way works better.  The decision may be different depending on the recording situation as well as the microphone arrangement, so its particularly helpful to be able to apply it afterward when you can take your time and listen carefully.  Also try EQ'ing the omnis in various ways instead of straight low-passing as a less dramatic form of filtering than low-passing, as you may find you like what the omnis contribute at higher frequencies and may just need to tailor hat to fit nicely with the center pair, and vice-versa.

That's more likely to apply when you are running the omnis spaced apart with the directional pair in the middle, rather than a single omni between a near-spaced directional pair where the low-pass may be more helpful.  But doing it afterward you can try it both ways in either case.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2021, 01:01:20 PM »
Thank you Gut, awesome detailed response!

Any suggestions on a pair of mic’s (sub $500) for the middle, if I use my Telefunken’s as omni’s?

Online Gutbucket

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #21 on: April 08, 2021, 01:27:02 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline capnhook

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #22 on: April 08, 2021, 02:12:53 PM »
CAFS omnis with a stereo mic center......delicious




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BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #23 on: April 08, 2021, 03:05:47 PM »
DPA 406x series is what we bought for this tiny footprint application. not within the $500 budget tho. (we paid $850 for a 4061 sdk used)

this thread has a photo of our AKG ck22's on the camera rails.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=191128.0

OhioHead I recommend using camera rails for other mounting type purposes, but GB's and capnhooks foldable antennaes are lighter weight (and less $$)
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #24 on: April 08, 2021, 03:55:25 PM »
CAFS omnis with a stereo mic center......delicious

You've got me homesick for the Spirit of the Swuannee porch stage!
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline fireonshakedwnstreet

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2021, 06:37:05 PM »
That's a nice damn set-up, capn!
Mics: Studio Projects C4 (C,O,H); AT 853Rx (C,O); JVC M510 (shotgun); Samson CO2; AT 835b; Nady RSM-5
Recorders: Tascam DR-70D x2
Pres: Sound Devices MixPre; Edirol UA-5 x2 (BMp2+); Shure FP11 x2

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2021, 07:09:57 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?

Gave away my Church omni’s shortly after getting into taping as thank you to guy who taught me the super basics of taping w/ a Church rig, :oof on my part (plus as a recall I could not order w/ longer 1 piece lead).

Primary taping use would be “jambands,” so for example Goose, TTB, WSP, Marcus King, GSBG, John K, etc, check out my few posted shows on LMA (I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2021, 07:14:25 PM »
You mentioned you have Church Audio CA-14's earlier - are they omnis?  If so I'd put the Telefunkens in the center and the Church omnis out wide.  Two reasons: Low cost omnis tend to perform better than low cost directionals, and its easier to keep the larger/heavier mics in the middle.

I'd rather make configuration recommendations which I'm more certain of applying broadly, than specific mic recommendations which get muddied in personal preference, and I may not be aware of the most appropriate option. As I mentioned earlier, lavaliere omnis can work well.  Maybe checkout whatever small inexpensive omnis Naiant or Church are offering these days.  Larger (typical small diameter) phantom powered omnis work great as well of course, they just tend to be larger and heavier, thus more visually imposing and more challenging to support at wider spacings.

You might try searching TS for past threads with recommendations for omnis in your price range.


Edit- anyone else reading along have good specific recommendations?

Gave away my Church omni’s shortly after getting into taping as thank you to guy who taught me the super basics of taping w/ a Church rig, :oof on my part (plus as a recall I could not order w/ longer 1 piece lead).

Primary taping use would be “jambands,” so for example Goose, TTB, WSP, Marcus King, GSBG, John K, etc, check out my few posted shows on LMA (I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).

tapertodd should show my shows on LMA (Marcus King Jan/February 2019 @ A & R Bar, TTB Cincy summer 2019, Goose Aug 2019 @ Skully’s).

Offline capnhook

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2021, 10:16:09 PM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:
Proud member of the reality-based community

BSCS-L->JB-mod [NAK CM-300 (CP-3) and/or (CP-1)]->LSD2->CA CAFS-Omni->Sony ECM-907**Apogee MiniMe Rev. C->CA Ugly II->**Edirol OCM R-44->Tascam DR-22WL->Sony TCD-D8


"Don't ever take an all or nothing attitude when it comes to making a difference
and being beautiful and making the world a beautiful place through your actions.
Every little bit is registered.  Every little bit.  So be as beautiful as you can as often as you can"

"It'll never be over, 'till we learn."
 
"My dream is to get a bus and get the band and just go coast to coast. Just about everything else except music, is anti-musical.  That's it.  Music's the thing." - Jeb Puryear

Offline OhioHead

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Re: 3rd mic for use w/ Tele’s ELA’s
« Reply #29 on: April 09, 2021, 07:13:02 AM »
(I am sitting on 50 to 75 shows that need to be tracked).


Aren't we all?

 :bigsmile:

:medal - when I got back into taping in 2015, I caught a lot of shows around Cbus (only taper present) that I transferred to hard drive and did not touch, it is “time” to fire up the old PC and find my notes on uploading shows (solo Billy String fall 2015/spring 2016, John Mullins (of ekoostik hookah) before he passed).

 

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