Topic: Zoom F3

[marcb]

Sure. Or emulate whatever particular sound you are listening for using plugins "in the box".  I know some tapers who apply some light saturation in search of something like transformer or tape emulation.  An advantage of good clean preamps is that you can always choose to alter things later when called for, or not, without that particular sound being permanently "baked in".

Any thoughts on the best settings to reproduce the flavor of some of the more popular external preamps we’re used to seeing? Would be cool to have something like an Oade M248 setting.

[Gutbucket]

Not specifically, although that's going to be the interpretive art of the undertaking.

I have thought about the possibility of doing what some of the more advanced guitar modeling amplifier folks are doing in "profiling" an amplifier or signal chain by sending test signals through that are in turn analyzed by the emulating unit to form a complex multi-dimensional profile of its signal-transfer-function.  In essence sending complex signals through whatever is being tested, measuring its behavior across the entire frequency range, at all applicable levels, at various impedances, etc, and building a digital model of that behavior that can be applied to any signal passed in place of the real thing.  At least that's my understanding of how those things work. 

Profiling the transfer-function of a microphone preamp, a specific microphone itself, or a desired micrphone>preamp combination, would be a more fine-grained undertaking, as its effects are going to be much more subtle than the distortions of the cleanest guitar amplifier, yet is essentially no different in concept.

One example of this explained here-
https://youtu.be/N0aL-4UC60M?si=IDbtph3M4X4m1PlQ&t=84

[voltronic]

If you're looking for a colored mic preamp sound, you could go for one of the many Neve 1073 emulations, or look for plugins that do transformer or tube saturation.

Studio recordings are a completely separate thing, but if we're talking about concert recording:

My gut tells me that many people going after this drastic a change might be better served by being open to change up their mics and technique. If your recordings never sound "right" to you until you apply lots of coloration, are you truly capturing a concert event?  Could you have gotten the "right" sound with different placement, height, spacing, or angles? Or different mics entirely? I'm not really including EQ or m/s processing into this, unless they are used with extreme settings.

We have to be open to new ways of doing things, and not be stuck in "this is THE way". I'm including myself in this advice, mind you. Several months ago, I used some very expensive omni mics to record a choral concert in a location and placement I had been successful with before, with different omni mics. As soon as I heard the recording, I knew I had chosen poorly. It was a mess; the direct/reverberant balance was all wrong. Next April I will be recording (and performing) in the same space, and I will not make that mistake again.

[jielkade]

I dream of a neutral preamp set with a pair of digital microphones with as little color as possible - Sonosax plus Neumann D? but that's off topic, sorry.

[thirdeye99]

Hi all. After wearing my old rig into the ground for 17+ years (DPA4061 legacy > MMA6000 or MPS6030 > solid state recorder), I've been researching a new one. The great beta in this thread convinced me that the F3 was a no-brainer. I paired it with a purchase of the newer DPA 4061 CORE mic kit with microdot > XLR adapters, and had a first run at a local jazz venue here in Seattle. Just wanted to drop some samples and observations here to add to the group data.

Samples -
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1OaZwZ5XP15lRsgdRCXs-GOwo7zjFjbrP?usp=sharing

Show: Oz Noy Trio Supergroup (Noy, Dennis Chambers, Jimmy Haslip) - 09/12/2023 - Seattle, WA @ Dimitriou's Jazz Alley.
Rig: DPA 4061 (CORE) mics > Zoom F3 via DPA DAD6001 XLR adapters. Mic in - 48v phantom power. 32 bit float / 48 kHz. Magnification x4.
Transfer: Zoom F3 > USB > PC > Reaper v6.82 DAW for normalizing and mastering > Render to 24/48 flac.
 
One sample is just normalized (+8db), no other edits. The other is the same song with some mastering in Ozone. The song (Bemsha Swing) has a very large dynamic range so you can hear the F3 preamps / noise floor in action.

Taping location was not ideal - right of stage without a direct line to a PA speaker, and it is bass guitar heavy being on Haslip's side. But I was close (5 foot off stage), so the sound was a mix between overhead PA speaker and the on-stage sounds of acoustic drums and monitors. I think the imperfections you hear (dampened sound, bass heavy, guitar distant) are a function of taping location rather than equipment.

Sound Quality Observations:
The F3 internal preamps sound clean, detailed and quiet to me. I was listening for F3 self-noise in the super quiet parts, but I don't hear much if any. I believe any light hum is from stage amps and snare. I'll need more shows for a definitive conclusion, but my first impression is that this is an upgrade from the old DPA MMA6000 preamp or MPS6030 battery box > Sony M10. The MMA6000 tended to add a touch of warm color that bordered on sloppy at times. The F3 is more neutral, detailed, and open. Could be also a function of the new core amps in the mics as well.

The 4061s > F3 seems like a natural fit, particularly if stealthing concerts is a primary purpose (like it is for me). I haven't yet seen this combo in shared shows on Dime and other sites.

[thirdeye99]

F3 Operational Observations:

- The 32 bit float is indeed a game-changer. No worrying about / checking levels?!  I was able to stay more present in the performance.
- I set the magnification level to x4. That seemed to a good starting point for a club jazz show. Loud arena rock, maybe x2. Any others' thoughts on where to set it at a loud hard rock show? (keeping in mind it ultimately doesn't matter with the 32bit float. But the less heavy lifting my DAW editing software has to do, I think the better).
- I used Energizer lithium batteries and had PLENTY of juice left after recording for two hours (phantom 48v x 2 mics), then listening to the recording for another hour on the device. It hadn't even gone down a bar yet in the battery life indicator.
- I wore the F3 looped into my belt. Seems more natural than in the pocket, with it's thickness. But in a stealth situation it would be difficult to view the screen (upside down) and adjust anything via button pushing.
- After starting the recording, I slid the button to the Hold position and covered it with a small piece of gaffer's tape so it couldn't be knocked.
- The device automatically created a new track when the first track reached 1.99GB. This occurred about 1 hr 35mins into the show. It was seamless, no gap in music.
- 32 bit float worked as advertised in post editing. Increasing volume did not seem to introduce floor noise.

[Gutbucket]

Good report!

The song (Bemsha Swing) has a very large dynamic range so you can hear the F3 preamps / noise floor in action.

I'd be very, very, very, surprised if the noise floor of the recorder is what is dominating the noise floor of that recording.  Granted, it can be hard to discern by listening if the noisefloor of the recording is being dominated by the noisefloor of the room (HVAC), the self-noise of the mics, or the noisefloor of the F3 input preamp stage.   But from experience, I expect them to range from highest to lowest level in that order.

If you want to really test this you'd need to place a dummy load across the inputs of the F3 to hear just the noise of the recorder's input stage and determine its noise level.  Then secondly, you could attach the mics and put the rig inside an airtight sealed case with lots of damping and make a recording like that, say, in the middle of the night at the quietest location you have available to you - maybe down in the basement, out in the back shed or in a well sealed car with the engine off and all the windows up.  That's likely to get it quiet enough that the microphone self-noise will dominate, so you can then hear what that noise sounds like and determine its level, both in absolute terms and relative to the level of the recorder's input stage noise.  Then you can compare both of those with the noise floor of this recording.  You can then be sure its the room's noise floor if the noise level of the recording is higher than either of the other two. 

Doing that will not only allow you to determine the true level of the noisefloor of each stage, but will also allow you to listen for differences in the spectrum and "flavor" of each stage's noise, which can help in determining what is dominating the noise floor of other recordings in the future by ear.

The MMA6000 tended to add a touch of warm color that bordered on sloppy at times. The F3 is more neutral, detailed, and open. Could be also a function of the new core amps in the mics as well.

In my experience, MMA6000 works well with the DPA miniatures, although it has significantly more gain available than necessary and is bulky.  It isn't the quietest preamp, but works well at the gains typically needed for 4061 or 4060 where it is quieter than they are.  When I shifted from MMA6000 to PFA's and DAD6001's  I didn't notice much change into DR680mkII, noticed some change into OCM R-44, and noticed a lot more clarity and openness into Zoom F8.

I've been long curious about the CORE versions of the DPA miniatures.  Comparison with the legacy version will be difficult here as you've got the additional variables of the DAD6001's and new recorder complicating that.

[Chanher]

Yes thanks for the report.

- I set the magnification level to x4. That seemed to a good starting point for a club jazz show. Loud arena rock, maybe x2. Any others' thoughts on where to set it at a loud hard rock show? (keeping in mind it ultimately doesn't matter with the 32bit float. But the less heavy lifting my DAW editing software has to do, I think the better).

One advantage of the magnification setting is eliminating the need to boost levels/ normalize in post. Now all I do after a show is copy the files, flac, then archive. Boom, done. This streamlined process gets me taping more.

I've even begun to run the magnification settings "hot" so that it appears there's some clipping (there's not, trust us) and then all my raw files are at consumer level playback volume. At my home theater I'm constantly switching between studio albums and live recordings and having everything at one general playback volume is quite nice. Not a HUGE deal, but still a pleasant convenience of the F3.

[Popmarter]

Slighly off-topic. I always convert the orginal wav's to FLAC and make a md5 checksum file. Just for security and be able to check later if everyting is fine with files.

I do this with Traders Litle Helper. But it does nog work with 32bit files. Is there an alternative?

[aaronji]

Maybe try WavPack? FLAC can now do 32-bit, but only integer. I think they are working on implementing floating point.

Otherwise, just adjust the signal level, convert to 24-bit, and FLAC.

[Gutbucket]

I always convert the orginal wav's to FLAC and make a md5 checksum file. Just for security and be able to check later if everyting is fine with files.

You could md5 the raw 32-bit-fp files without conversion to FLAC, producing a checksum but not compressing file size.

[Popmarter]

I always convert the orginal wav's to FLAC and make a md5 checksum file. Just for security and be able to check later if everyting is fine with files.

You could md5 the raw 32-bit-fp files without conversion to FLAC, producing a checksum but not compressing file size.

Really, man why did i not think of that....thanks mate!

[Gutbucket]

Happy to help!

..it can be hard to discern by listening if the noisefloor of the recording is being dominated by the noisefloor of the room (HVAC), the self-noise of the mics, or the noisefloor of the F3 input preamp stage.   But from experience, I expect them to range from highest to lowest level in that order.

There should be sufficient data below to figure out the comparative noise floors of each.  Specs as reported by the manufacturers:

Zoom's F3 EIN : -127 dBu or less (IHF-A) when waveform magnification is ×1024 with 150 Ω input (< not sure why the part I've bolded here is relevant)
Input impedance, MIC: 3 kΩ or more
Input impedance, LINE: 3 kΩ or more
Maximum input level,   MIC: +4 dBu
Maximum input level,   LINE: +24 dBu

DPA's MMA6000 EIN :
At 0 dB gain<3 µV (RMS A-weight)
At 37 dB gain<1,5 µV (RMS A-weight)

DPA's 4061 (legacy and CORE) :
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB at 1 kHz 6 mV/Pa; -44 dB re. 1 V/Pa
Equivalent noise level, A-weighted Typ. 26 dB(A) re. 20 µPa (max. 28 dB(A))
Equivalent noise level, ITU-R BS.468-4 Typ. 38 dB (max. 40 dB)
Distortion, THD < 1% - Legacy 120 dB SPL RMS, 123 dB SPL peak
Distortion, THD < 1% - CORE 134 dB SPL RMS, 137 dB SPL peak
Dynamic range - Legacy Typ. 97 dB
Dynamic range - CORE Typ. 111 dB
Max. SPL, THD 10% 144 dB SPL peak

[Gutbucket]

I dream of a neutral preamp set with a pair of digital microphones with as little color as possible - Sonosax plus Neumann D? but that's off topic, sorry.

No analog preamp needed (or possible) with a digital microphone.  Conversion from analog to digital is happening inside the microphone prior to output.

[voltronic]

Happy to help!

..it can be hard to discern by listening if the noisefloor of the recording is being dominated by the noisefloor of the room (HVAC), the self-noise of the mics, or the noisefloor of the F3 input preamp stage.   But from experience, I expect them to range from highest to lowest level in that order.

There should be sufficient data below to figure out the comparative noise floors of each.  Specs as reported by the manufacturers:

Zoom's F3 EIN : -127 dBu or less (IHF-A) when waveform magnification is ×1024 with 150 Ω input (< not sure why the part I've bolded here is relevant)
Input impedance, MIC: 3 kΩ or more
Input impedance, LINE: 3 kΩ or more
Maximum input level,   MIC: +4 dBu
Maximum input level,   LINE: +24 dBu

DPA's MMA6000 EIN :
At 0 dB gain<3 µV (RMS A-weight)
At 37 dB gain<1,5 µV (RMS A-weight)

DPA's 4061 (legacy and CORE) :
Sensitivity, nominal, ±3 dB at 1 kHz 6 mV/Pa; -44 dB re. 1 V/Pa
Equivalent noise level, A-weighted Typ. 26 dB(A) re. 20 µPa (max. 28 dB(A))
Equivalent noise level, ITU-R BS.468-4 Typ. 38 dB (max. 40 dB)
Distortion, THD < 1% - Legacy 120 dB SPL RMS, 123 dB SPL peak
Distortion, THD < 1% - CORE 134 dB SPL RMS, 137 dB SPL peak
Dynamic range - Legacy Typ. 97 dB
Dynamic range - CORE Typ. 111 dB
Max. SPL, THD 10% 144 dB SPL peak

I think you forgot to include the EIN specs of the MMA6000.