Author Topic: Taping Really close to the stacks? (Read 9201 times)

Colin Liston · « **on:** March 01, 2005, 10:04:27 AM »

I am gonna try to run my mics (4023's) about 4' from each stack at a Drive By Truckers show. Anyone know if this will be to loud?
Will I be able to turn the preamp down enough so I don't overload?

thanks
colin

Rick · « **Reply #1 on:** March 01, 2005, 10:45:47 AM »

I ran my MK4s about 10 feet from right "stack" about a week ago and I had to use no gain on my SX-M2 and was down to 5 on my SBM. And the show wasn't even that loud.

be careful

Teen Age Riot · « **Reply #2 on:** March 01, 2005, 11:40:56 AM »

I'm a die-hard stack-taper, and I'm still suprised what ridiculous levels my mics can take. I got low frequency distortion/brickwalling a couple of times in extremely loud situations, but I don't think it was because of the mics. I once managed to overload the line-in of my stock SBM1 with DPA4060's. This was a festival and I was in front of the subs. oops. The loudest show I ever taped was Queens of the Stone Age. Again, first row, less than a meter from the stack, with CSB's going line-in to SBM1. No distortion at all. Just lots of bass that I could reduce after the fact.

I'd say your 4023's can take it. Just watch whatever else you have in the signal chain. I've never seen a DBT show, but if they do pump up the bass a lot, it might be a good idea to have a bass roll-off of some kind. My 2 cents....

Tim · « **Reply #3 on:** March 01, 2005, 12:19:44 PM »

according to the specs on dpa's website the 4023's can take 145db spl.

I don't think I would run that close to a stack, first I think you run the risk of overloading your mics and/or your pre. second pa speakers are not full range so you will be close micing most likely a mid-hi cabinet, so depending on where the clubs crossover is set you're not going to capture the lowend.

I'd back off a little bit

also, what pre are you using?

neutrino · « **Reply #4 on:** March 01, 2005, 01:29:38 PM »

For the sake of argument, what's the point of running 4023's that close to the stack? I would think the whole purpose of running a cardiod mic is that you could distance yourself from the source while achieving an up-close reproduction.

Colin Liston · « **Reply #5 on:** March 01, 2005, 01:55:29 PM »

I'll be running either 4023's > ad1000, or 4023's > psp3>ad1000.

Why run that close? Just because I can I guess. I've always wanted to and the club the Freebird will let me.
And I figure it will sound really good.

You guys are killing my dream!

But please keep giving me some helpful info!

colin

Tim · « **Reply #6 on:** March 01, 2005, 01:58:09 PM »

I think, if the tapes were not distorted, they would be very bright

Teen Age Riot · « **Reply #7 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:03:55 PM »

Quote from: colin on March 01, 2005, 01:55:29 PM

You guys are killing my dream!

Well, I'm not!

Give it a try, and see if you like the results. Sound will be brighter, but that can be a good thing, too.

Tim · « **Reply #8 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:26:33 PM »

find out what the crossover point is on the mid-hi cabs and the subs, I've worked in clubs where the crossover was around 500hz for the sub....

just to give you an idea of what that might mean in practical terms...

here are some general frequency ranges as they apply to sound reinforcement or reproduction
Low bass <50Hz
Mid bass - 50Hz-100Hz
Upper bass - 100Hz-200Hz
Lower mids - 200-400Hz
Midrange - 400-1600Hz

I'm not telling you not to try it, just giving a few words of caution

Colin Liston · « **Reply #9 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:29:12 PM »

just to give you an idea of what that might mean in practical terms...

here are some general frequency ranges as they apply to sound reinforcement or reproduction
Low bass <50Hz
Mid bass - 50Hz-100Hz
Upper bass - 100Hz-200Hz
Lower mids - 200-400Hz
Midrange - 400-1600Hz

I'm not telling you not to try it, just giving a few words of caution

I have no idea what this means? What should I be worried about?

colin

Tim · « **Reply #10 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:42:59 PM »

the speakers you will be taping off of will probably not be reproducing any info below 500 or 600hz

a kickdrum's fundamentals are from 30-147hz... completely outside the range of the speaker you will me micing
a bass guitar's fundamentals are from 41-300hz.... completely outside the range of the speaker you will me micing
electric guitar's fundamentals are from 82-1300hz... a significant portion will be outside the range of the speaker
good portions of the voices will not be reproduced, as well as the snare drum and the toms...

findamentals are the lowest frequencies of instruments... the harmonics of the instruments will be within the frequency range of the speaker but you will be sacrificing a significant portion of the lowend in your tapes...

hope that helps...

Tim · « **Reply #11 on:** March 01, 2005, 02:43:11 PM »

Quote from: Moke on March 01, 2005, 02:32:24 PM

it means,.. that the pa stack that you plan to tape, (a speaker, at that close of a distance), might only be a small part of the whole sound, and that you might be missing the entire bottom end, and some of the mids.

what he said...

Charlies · « **Reply #12 on:** March 01, 2005, 03:08:03 PM »

I'd go for it! For a moe. show (admittedly not the loudest of bands, but it was sure as hell loud enough that earplugs were a necessity) last Fall I ran ck62s->JKlabs pre (@ 0-6db gain)->modsbm1 literally within 3 inches of some stacks. If you are looking for a soundboard-type sound, I'd say do it! If it is a vertical stack, and you think the bass will overload any of your gear, consider moving your mics higher in relation to the stack, so you will get more mids and highs and less lows. Same concept for a horizontal "stacks" (figure out where they have concentrated the bass and move a bit away from that box and nearer to the other boxes) (with both vertical and horizontal spreads, I've found that there generally is some bass coming out of all boxes in the stack, but with the bass really concentrated in one or more of the bigger boxes; setting up in the middle of the smaller boxes therefore does not necessarily mean that you will end up with a tape that is bass heavy in one channel).

And why wouldn't someone use cards in that situation? This would certainly be preferable over hypers as far as frequency response and *could be* preferable to omnis if drunken idiots were a factor.

My two cents...good luck!

Charlies · « **Reply #13 on:** March 01, 2005, 03:38:30 PM »

Quote from: Tim on March 01, 2005, 02:42:59 PM

the speakers you will be taping off of will probably not be reproducing any info below 500 or 600hz

a kickdrum's fundamentals are from 30-147hz... completely outside the range of the speaker you will me micing
a bass guitar's fundamentals are from 41-300hz.... completely outside the range of the speaker you will me micing
electric guitar's fundamentals are from 82-1300hz... a significant portion will be outside the range of the speaker
good portions of the voices will not be reproduced, as well as the snare drum and the toms...

findamentals are the lowest frequencies of instruments... the harmonics of the instruments will be within the frequency range of the speaker but you will be sacrificing a significant portion of the lowend in your tapes...

hope that helps...

Moke and Tim,

Wondering, so if that happens in this situation, what happens when you're way back in the section? (It's hard to believe there's any meaningful difference in loss being in front of a stack or being in the back in the section. Seems to me that you'd lose it being anywhere but when you're taping the stage.) Also, I forget, how low do normal cards go (since that's what he'll be using)? Thanks.

Tim · « **Reply #14 on:** March 01, 2005, 04:00:17 PM »

the dpa's go 40hz-20khz.... many other mics go from 20hz-20khz

when you are further back from the speakers you will be hearing the full frequency range of the PA system...

a typical concert pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz..... maybe a touch lower and a touch higher but that's a safe range. from there the speakers are split into 3 different ranges...

the subs reproduce 40hz-500hz or so
the mids reproduce 500hz-4khz
the hi's reproduce 4khz-15khz

edit to add: the subs are always in their own cabinet, generally the mids and the hi's share one cabinet

so when you mic a cabinet that only has a mid and a hi in it you are only going to be recording 500hz-15khz, meanwhile the pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz.... when you are out in the room you hear a blend off all 3 speaker types, when you close mic a cabinet you won't be getting anything but the frequency range of that speaker.

does that make sense?

edit to add, the above frequencies are just used for an example, in real life each club and each pa system will be a little different...

Charlies · « **Reply #15 on:** March 01, 2005, 04:34:41 PM »

Quote from: Tim on March 01, 2005, 04:00:17 PM

when you are further back from the speakers you will be hearing the full frequency range of the PA system...

I think we're on the same page...What I was envisioning is the situation where there is a vertical stack stage left and a vertical stack stage right, and monitors on stage. If you focus on one stack, with cards, you going to get the full range of what's coming out of that stack, albeit the range recorded may be more pronounced with respect to the frequency range being emitted by the box that is directly in front of your mic. I hear what you are saying--farther back you theoretically will get a more balanced mix (presumably with the best mix being in the "sweet spot). (I thought you were saying that more frequency range was coming from somewhere other than the stacks.)

Quote from: Tim on March 01, 2005, 04:00:17 PM

a typical concert pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz..... maybe a touch lower and a touch higher but that's a safe range. from there the speakers are split into 3 different ranges...

the subs reproduce 40hz-500hz or so
the mids reproduce 500hz-4khz
the hi's reproduce 4khz-15khz

edit to add: the subs are always in their own cabinet, generally the mids and the hi's share one cabinet

so when you mic a cabinet that only has a mid and a hi in it you are only going to be recording 500hz-15khz, meanwhile the pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz.... when you are out in the room you hear a blend off all 3 speaker types, when you close mic a cabinet you won't be getting anything but the frequency range of that speaker.

does that make sense?

edit to add, the above frequencies are just used for an example, in real life each club and each pa system will be a little different...

Yep, so in my examples, and using DPAs, I think you would really not lose much at all other than a higher concentration of low end? You would not be losing any frequency range of the source.

Colin Liston · « **Reply #16 on:** March 01, 2005, 05:02:24 PM »

The PA isn't the greatest at the Freebird, where I'll be.

The stacks are just about the sides of the stage about 21' apart and hanging from the balcony. The whole front of the stage is made up of subs, either 5 or 6 I can't remember.
I figure I can point the mics a little inward toward the center of the stage.

colin

Tim · « **Reply #17 on:** March 01, 2005, 05:43:09 PM »

Quote from: Charlies on March 01, 2005, 04:34:41 PM

Quote from: Tim on March 01, 2005, 04:00:17 PM

a typical concert pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz..... maybe a touch lower and a touch higher but that's a safe range. from there the speakers are split into 3 different ranges...

the subs reproduce 40hz-500hz or so
the mids reproduce 500hz-4khz
the hi's reproduce 4khz-15khz

edit to add: the subs are always in their own cabinet, generally the mids and the hi's share one cabinet

so when you mic a cabinet that only has a mid and a hi in it you are only going to be recording 500hz-15khz, meanwhile the pa is reproducing 40hz-15khz.... when you are out in the room you hear a blend off all 3 speaker types, when you close mic a cabinet you won't be getting anything but the frequency range of that speaker.

Yep, so in my examples, and using DPAs, I think you would really not lose much at all other than a higher concentration of low end? You would not be losing any frequency range of the source.

you are losing approximatley 1/3rd of the musical information. the kick drum will have no thump, merely the clicking of the beater on the drum head, you won't hear anything the bass player does except when he plays very high on the neck.

look again at the frequency ranges I posted for instruments and then look at how much of that information will not be audible.

we're not just talking about the very low frequencies that can cause our tapes to be boomy, we are talking about losing a significant amount of musical information.

I'm trying to think of a better way to illustrate to you what 400 and 500hz sounds like, they are not subsonic frequencies... they are crucial to the music. Do you have access to a guitar? Hit an open an "A" string (the 2nd string down) that note resonates at 440hz.

Tim · « **Reply #18 on:** March 01, 2005, 05:56:57 PM »

I'm looking around the net and trying to find some good articles or graphs that will illustrate my point, I'll post them as I find them but for starters here's one from PSB

http://www.psbspeakers.com/FrequenciesOfMusic.html

Brian · « **Reply #19 on:** March 01, 2005, 06:27:25 PM »

hmmmm, interesting thread going on here.

i wouldn't necessarily say that there will be no "thump" in the kick drum or good low end. remember low frequencies are omnidirectional and sound eminates spherically from it's source. If his microphones are 3 feet from the stacks 10' above the subs I'd say he'll still be getting a decent low end, but nothing outstabnding that's for sure.

My problem with stack taping is that there is no image whatsoever. just a dry mono mix being.pumped into two microhones. Not to re-hash this debate though. stack tapers like their tapes that's all that matters. it doesn't matter if i don't like em

secondly, tim brings up great points about the kind of frequencies you'll be getting out of the stack. if you ae back in the impact zone you'll get more ambience and "air" in the high end not to mention a better blend between the music and the room. El Barto's recent Gov't Mule tape (2/20/05) is an excellent example of having the 3 things that I believe make great indoor recordings. great image, up-front sound, excellent blend of room sound. All this just because he was in the sweet spot. with a stack tape all you get is an upfront sound, but with the loss of the other two i believe you lessened your chances of making what I and many others believe to be a good 2 channel recording.

you have to remember the room will always shape the sound of the PA. if you have a great sounding room, stack taping would be futile unless your only other option was to set up TOO far away. If you have a shitty sounding room then maybe a stack tape will sound better cleaner. But shitty sounding rooms usually have shitty sounding PA's leaving you with a shitty sounding stack tape, DPA's or not.

Tim · « **Reply #20 on:** March 01, 2005, 06:32:15 PM »

thanks Brian, +T

Brian · « **Reply #21 on:** March 01, 2005, 06:47:23 PM »

no problem, backatcha in 12

Colin Liston · « **Reply #22 on:** March 04, 2005, 01:12:33 PM »

Well, I taped the drive by truckers with my mics hanging about 4' from the stacks, and guess what? You guys were right. There is definetly something missing from the recording. The vocals are crystal clear but there is no sign of the low end.

I ran 2 rigs though.

Gefell 210's > PSP-3 > Sbm-1 > D-8 from balcony FOB DFC
DPA 4023's> AD1000 > JB3 Mics Split 21' and hanging from balcony about 4' in front of each stack

The Gefell's have a more full sound for sure.

Thanks for all the help. Looks like I won't be wasting my time with that split set up again, takes to long to set up and way too long to pack 200' of cable when you are not exactly sober...

colin

nickgregory · « **Reply #23 on:** March 04, 2005, 01:21:00 PM »

given that it was a gefell vs DPA shootout, I am not surprised that the MGs won...they often do

Colin Liston · « **Reply #24 on:** March 04, 2005, 02:23:26 PM »

Quote from: nickgregory on March 04, 2005, 01:21:00 PM

given that it was a gefell vs DPA shootout, I am not surprised that the MGs won...they often do

OUCH!

Brian · « **Reply #25 on:** March 04, 2005, 03:37:34 PM »

+T for trying it out anyway and hearing the results yourself! I know it's hard to believe some of us around here but once in awhile we know what we are talking about

nick. you could buy shares in the marshmelow industry with that fluff.

nickgregory · « **Reply #26 on:** March 04, 2005, 03:45:26 PM »

Quote from: S_TL-Taper on March 04, 2005, 03:37:34 PM

nick. you could buy shares in the marshmelow industry with that fluff.

It ain't fluff if its true

Tim · « **Reply #27 on:** March 04, 2005, 10:24:12 PM »

Quote from: S_TL-Taper on March 04, 2005, 03:37:34 PM

+T for trying it out anyway and hearing the results yourself!

no doubt, as long as you learned something!

Quote

I know it's hard to believe some of us around here but once in awhile we know what we are talking about

every once in a while!

nickgregory · « **Reply #28 on:** March 05, 2005, 07:55:42 AM »

just to close this off though...you can make fantastic sounding "stack tapes" but you seriously cant hump the stack...the farther back you get the more natural sounding the tape can be....

Brian · « **Reply #29 on:** March 05, 2005, 09:36:27 AM »

Quote from: nickgregory on March 05, 2005, 07:55:42 AM

just to close this off though...you can make fantastic sounding "stack tapes" but you seriously cant hump the stack...the farther back you get the more natural sounding the tape can be....

Charlies · « **Reply #30 on:** March 05, 2005, 12:35:26 PM »

Again, all I'm saying is that you are not theoretically losing anything if you set up correctly on the stack...compare your stack tape to a soundboard of the same show..... the bass will sound the same... the only thing you are missing is when the stack tape is compared to an aud tape from farther back. It all depends on the sound you are looking for (I only stack tape when circumstances do not permit a more preferable set up).

+for giving it a shot.

edit to add: Sounds like you were in a bowery-type room..a stack tape is definitely not worth running 200 feet of cables in that type of room!

charles · « **Reply #31 on:** March 05, 2005, 05:24:28 PM »

I know this thread is pretty much done...but thought I'd add my 2 cents from a Nak users perspective. I've taped one YMSB show about 4' back DFC in a rough ORTF with cm300/cp1>AD-20>D8 and had very good results. I ran them at about 10' feet angled down about 20 deg. Of course, my cm300's run very low gain....at most shows I'm running levels on my AD-20 close to the top. Like I said the results were fantastic. Only downside was of course crowd noise.....some of this had to do with the type of crowd I was dealing with.....some with how much the ORTF and the down angle opened them up to crowd noise. But, had the crowd been the more quiet kind.....it would be spectacular. Like I said, just my 2 cents for other Nak users out there.

Tim · « **Reply #32 on:** March 05, 2005, 10:58:33 PM »

Quote from: Charlies on March 05, 2005, 12:35:26 PM

Again, all I'm saying is that you are not theoretically losing anything if you set up correctly on the stack...

you're completely wrong about this. I've tried to explain it and you didn't understand, I figured this guy trying it and saying that it didn't work would convince you. Apparently not.

Quote from: Charlies on March 05, 2005, 12:35:26 PM

compare your stack tape to a soundboard of the same show..... the bass will sound the same...

this statement could not be anymore false.

how do you think the sound gets to the speakers? it is routed through the board, if you are humping a mid-hi cabinet (as was the case here) you will not be be getting the same bass as appears on the soundboard tape.

Tim · « **Reply #33 on:** March 05, 2005, 11:01:28 PM »

Quote from: charles on March 05, 2005, 05:24:28 PM

I know this thread is pretty much done...but thought I'd add my 2 cents from a Nak users perspective. I've taped one YMSB show about 4' back DFC in a rough ORTF with cm300/cp1>AD-20>D8 and had very good results. I ran them at about 10' feet angled down about 20 deg. Of course, my cm300's run very low gain....at most shows I'm running levels on my AD-20 close to the top. Like I said the results were fantastic. Only downside was of course crowd noise.....some of this had to do with the type of crowd I was dealing with.....some with how much the ORTF and the down angle opened them up to crowd noise. But, had the crowd been the more quiet kind.....it would be spectacular. Like I said, just my 2 cents for other Nak users out there.

you were taping a new-grass band that doesn't have drums, electric guitar, or an electric bass. the amount of lowend at a show like that you would get at a loud rock and roll show like the Truckers. Apples and Oranges..

charles · « **Reply #34 on:** March 05, 2005, 11:16:28 PM »

No shit! Yeah....I understand the difference b/w a band like Truckers and YMSB......just making a comment about close to stack tape specific to a certain type of music and mics.....I'm sure there's someone out there whom that information could be usefull to. '

BTW though....I think Apples and Oranges is a bit drastic. There are still aspects shared here.

Tim · « **Reply #35 on:** March 05, 2005, 11:31:59 PM »

Quote from: charles on March 05, 2005, 11:16:28 PM

BTW though....I think Apples and Oranges is a bit drastic. There are still aspects shared here.

both bands have vocals, other than that what would those aspects be?

Charlies · « **Reply #36 on:** March 06, 2005, 11:11:25 AM »

From experience, I reiterate the following:

1. The risk of stack taping is that you set up incorrectly so that your mics are not in a position to absorb the entire range of sound coming out of them.

2. You will rarely be able to position your mics on the stack so that you can capture the entire range of sound coming out of them.

3. Because the lowest bass coming out of the stacks will generally be beyond the range of your mics, you can increase your likelihood of not losing any of the highs without compromising your lows much by positioning your mics closer to the mid-and-high-end boxes.

4. As a result, in the right circumstances, the stack tape will have the same range of *music* on it as the section tape, but for the bit of low end you may not be able to capture due to stack configuration and corresponding mic placement. The section tape will have more room noise and a more full sound (more of a boomy low end) due to the distance from the stack providing room for the distinct sounds coming out of the stack to combine (or, if you're beyond the sweet spot, to become jumbled).

5. For shits and giggles, here is a recording from 4 or less inches from the stack in which I believe the circumstances were preferable for a good recording. (Moe DAR 04) http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=29580.0.

6. To compare, here is a recording from very close (1-2 feet), but due to the low profile requirements of the situation, preferable mic placement could not be achieved and hence more low end and less high end on the tape (the mics had to be hanging out of a computer bag at hip level in front of a stack that was 7-8 feet high). Although the tape has limitations, it was the only tape pulled and was really the only choice to get any recording. (Weir, Hart DC 9/2004) http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=30578.0

I will open up either of these if anyone really wants to discuss this or make the decision on this stuff for yourself. Let me know.

-Charlies

spyder9 · « **Reply #37 on:** March 06, 2005, 05:53:00 PM »

My 2 Bob Dylan recordings were taped pointed at the stack, with hypers on my AT853RX, and they came out great. Best shows I ever taped. Did the same thing for Gregg & Friends a month ago. Its all about setup. Too close will definitely throw too much bass in the recording. But, give me a stack and my AKG 568 shotguns and I'm a happy camper. The Card and Omni folks can have the DFC. Just my 2 cents.

Todd R · « **Reply #38 on:** March 07, 2005, 02:19:44 PM »

Quote from: spyder9 on March 06, 2005, 05:53:00 PM

My 2 Bob Dylan recordings were taped pointed at the stack, with hypers on my AT853RX, and they came out great. Best shows I ever taped. Did the same thing for Gregg & Friends a month ago. Its all about setup. Too close will definitely throw too much bass in the recording. But, give me a stack and my AKG 568 shotguns and I'm a happy camper. The Card and Omni folks can have the DFC. Just my 2 cents.

Just making sure we're on the same page here. This thread is about close taping of stacks, from 3 inches to as much as 4 feet away. Not the same thing as just pointing at the stack. Is this what you were talking about for Dylan, etc? I'm having a hard time picturing using shotgun mics 1 foot away from the stacks.