Become a Site Supporter and Never see Ads again!

Author Topic: Extreme Bass  (Read 5785 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Extreme Bass
« on: June 23, 2017, 12:46:20 PM »
Was at a show last night way FOB and the bass was insanely loud…chest thumping loud all night long.  I don’t know how the people around me could even listen without earplugs.  Totally crazy. 

I was running the DPA4061s and am curious what the best way to reduce the bass and bring the overall volume of the whole show up.  It just has that low distant sound because the bass frequencies took over everything. 

I have toyed around with EQ a bit and rolled off everything below 45hz and then amplified the whole show and it definitely sounds better, but I am wondering if there are any experts out there that may have some better suggestions.  Trying not to raise the noise floor too much.  I am using Adobe Audition CS6 as my DAW if that matters.

Thanks!
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline Craig T

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4306
    • LMA
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2017, 02:24:21 PM »
dynamic EQ would probably help
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Apogee Mini-MP / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D

Offline bombdiggity

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2277
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2017, 02:59:56 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Craig T

  • Trade Count: (10)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4306
    • LMA
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2017, 03:14:39 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.

I believe Audition's FFT is an EQ tool.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/8/10/izotope-explain-what-dynamic-eq-is-and-how-to-use-it
Schoeps cmc6/4v / Line Audio CM3, OM1 / ADK A51 / Church Audio CA-14
Naiant Tinybox v2.2 / NBox(P) / Apogee Mini-MP / Church Audio ST9200 / CA-UGLY
Sony PCM-M10 / Tascam DR-70D

Offline Sloan Simpson

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 4013
  • Gender: Male
    • Southern Shelter
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2017, 04:17:48 PM »
Multi band compressor

Offline bombdiggity

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2277
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2017, 05:10:25 PM »
I like filters better than eq for this sort of thing.  Audition's FFT filter is really useful.

I believe Audition's FFT is an EQ tool.

http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2015/8/10/izotope-explain-what-dynamic-eq-is-and-how-to-use-it

Well technically but it is a bit easier to be precise with and seems to give better results IME. 
Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2017, 05:54:34 PM »
High pass, shelf, and peak are all filters, just different shapes.

I generally prefer minimum-phase parametric filters (standard parametric EQ) to fine tune the curve for correcting low frequency problems by ear.  High-pass/low-cut (same thing) filters are way too blunt an instrument for me.

But with extreme bass and the DPA omnis which have flat sensitivity to way down low and soak it all up, I've found things can get weird with the necessary EQ corrections required to clean up the recordings for normal playback.  I've not analyzed that deeply as I don't record in those situations very frequently, but I suspect the issue may be the large phase shifts introduced by minimum-phase filters making such high magnitude corrections.

I suspect a linear-phase EQ filter may work better.  Indeed FFT filters are linear phase as I understand it.

Manipulation of the dynamics may also help. But I suspect EQ will be your first line of attack.  Multi-band compression is essentially dynamic EQ, with each band roughly corresponding to a wide graphic EQ channel.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2017, 07:06:42 PM »
That helps. I find when I use hi pass filter it cuts levels by like 20db then I have to add gain back which raises noise floor to crappy levels (mainly during quiet parts)

Maybe those are just my presets tho?
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline nassau73

  • Trade Count: (3)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 152
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2017, 07:18:10 PM »
This isn't a direct answer to the original question but this you tube video gives an idea of all the possibilities (combining filters, eq, etc.)

In Audition, you can launch the mastering rack and stack up your different effects to see how they play against each other.

Anyway:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjqIqv6lsz4

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2017, 07:25:59 PM »
A dynamic linear-phase EQ may be an ideal tool for this.  No excess bass reduction during banter and the ambient stuff between tunes, but once the subs crank up the dynamic EQ squashes the excess bass back down to something far more manageable.  Then you can raise overall levels and not get as much hiss during quiet parts, partly because you are not cutting and then boosting, and partly because the quiet parts would be better EQ balanced and less EQ tilted towards the HF.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline djphrayz

  • Trade Count: (6)
  • Taperssection Regular
  • **
  • Posts: 159
  • Gender: Male
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2017, 07:50:55 PM »
Was this bass music (loosely defined genre of EDM)?  If so and you are distributing this music to fans of the genre, you may want to keep that in mind...

That being said, I wish to thank Mr. Bucket for his insightful contributions to this and every thread in which he participates.  His generosity with knowledge are a real blessing to TS, and I have learned a lot from him.  Thank you, sir!
Mics: AT4031, DPA4061, DPA4099, AKG483, CA-14 cards and omnis
Recorders: MixPre10ii, Zoom F8, Sony PCM-M10
Pre: DPA MMA6000, CA Ugly 2

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2017, 07:53:56 PM »
Was this bass music (loosely defined genre of EDM)?  If so and you are distributing this music to fans of the genre, you may want to keep that in mind...

That being said, I wish to thank Mr. Bucket for his insightful contributions to this and every thread in which he participates.  His generosity with knowledge are a real blessing to TS, and I have learned a lot from him.  Thank you, sir!

No not EDM, was the band Blue October seen them many times and this bass was absolutely insane...way louder than any other show I had ever seen.  Excrutiating actually...glad I had plugs but felt sorry for those around me who were cringing.
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2017, 07:54:43 PM »
A dynamic linear-phase EQ may be an ideal tool for this.  No excess bass reduction during banter and the ambient stuff between tunes, but once the subs crank up the dynamic EQ squashes the excess bass back down to something far more manageable.  Then you can raise overall levels and not get as much hiss during quiet parts, partly because you are not cutting and then boosting, and partly because the quiet parts would be better EQ balanced and less EQ tilted towards the HF.

Is linear EQ something that can be done to the whole show at once or do I have to drill into the show at various parts manually.  Never really had to play around with that before.
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2017, 08:09:44 PM »
Yeah, you apply it just like regular EQ.  Some EQ plugins have both minimum-phase and linear-phase modes.  Some are just one or the other.  The dynamic EQ thing just engages the EQ filters based on threshold detection and applies it by degree like a compressor (it's basically frequency restricted compression).  The dynamic thing would just keep the non bass laden parts more natural sounding without excess bass reduction and without automation of the EQ, but that's gravy.

I'd try Audition's built in FFT filter like 'digitty mentions and see if that gets it under control.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2017, 08:51:40 PM »
So this is what the FFT box looks like...kinda lost???
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline bombdiggity

  • Trade Count: (11)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 2277
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2017, 11:54:08 PM »
This is a newer version than mine but go into the part that looks like a graph. 

Click a few points on the line then start pulling the left (lowest frequency) side of the line down.  You can essentially set differential levels of reduction by manipulating the line.  You can carve out very precise frequencies with large numbers of points or set a gentle curve or a curve that varies greatly from point to point. 

The left to right axis is low to high frequency (the scale is in Hz).  The top to bottom axis is relative level (the scale is in dB). 

There are also some presets that may give some idea of basic approaches. 

If you look at a frequency graph of the raw recording you may see what the initial landscape is and where you need to deemphasize. 

Gear:
Audio:
Schoeps MK4V
Nak CM-100/CM-300 w/ CP-1's or CP-4's
SP-CMC-25
>
Oade C mod R-44  OR
Tinybox > Sony PCM-M10 (formerly Roland R-05) 
Video: Varied, with various outboard mics depending on the situation

Offline morst

  • I think I found an error on the internet; #UnionStrong
  • Trade Count: (2)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 5944
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2017, 03:03:08 PM »
Multi band compressor
screw EQ, try Sloan's advice.
https://toad.social/@morst spoutible.com/morst post.news/@acffhmorst

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2017, 10:59:42 AM »
Went with the MB Compresor and am happy enough with the results.  It was a tough one to do anything with really, so at lieast it is listenable.  Thanks for the tips everyone!
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline Gutbucket

  • record > listen > revise technique
  • Trade Count: (15)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 15683
  • Gender: Male
  • "Better to love music than respect it" ~Stravinsky
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2017, 11:27:23 AM »
Cool.  How many bands and what crossover points between them?

As mentioned, using a multiband compressor you are basically dynamically EQing using an EQ with the same number of bands as the compressor.  Since most multiband compressors typically use 3 to 5 bands, that's essentially like a 3 or 5 band EQ, but with the gain of each band dynamically controlled.

The Voxengo Soniformer is an interesting and unique tool I use which is essentially an extreme multi-band compressor which splits the frequency spectrum into 32 bands and controls each separately before recombining them.  With so many bands, it uses a different curve based interface to keep settings under control, essentially helping one to use smoother EQ compression curves across all bands even through each band is acting in isolation, limiting settings with greatly varying (and often more problematic dissonant) band to band differences.  I find it very useful for problematic live recordings, and also for subtle low-level detail enhancement similar to parallel-compression, but it does takes a bit of time to get familiar with and figure out the interface- http://www.voxengo.com/product/soniformer/
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Cheesecadet

  • Trade Count: (21)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3016
  • Gender: Male
  • http://db.etree.org/cheesecadet
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2017, 05:36:13 PM »
I used the iZotooe MB Compressor in Audition CS6.  Not sure about crossover points but you are able to slide the the bands wider and narrower and check individual solos etc and then export what you like.  Pretty cool features actually.  There were 4 sections that you could manipulate if I remember correctly.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2017, 12:20:17 AM by Cheesecadet »
AKG 481's, DPA 4061's (Matched), AT ES933's w/ AT853-ELE's (SC/C/O), ECM-19B's, MixPre-3, A10, M10 x 2, Hi Ho Silvers, Various Darktrain & GAKables

Vinyl:
Fluance RT83 Reference > MCS 3230 Receiver > Realistic MC-500's (NOS)

Upcoming:
02/10 J. Dilla
02/14 Wiliie Waldman & The Chocolate Factory
02/15 Gabe & Giz
02/16 GM5
02/28 Grace Potter

Offline F.O.Bean

  • Team Schoeps Tapir that
  • Trade Count: (126)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 40690
  • Gender: Male
  • Taperus Maximus
    • MediaFire Recordings
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #20 on: June 26, 2017, 10:42:14 PM »
Multi band compressor

I have usually used WaveLab's MultiBand Compressor as well the last 10-15 years to remove extreme lowend or highend! Works good enough for me and can really transform a bad recording, to something totally listenable IMO!

I'm sure there might be better ways to do that with filters or EQ, but the MBC in WL6 does a great job for me, and usually helps me quickly dial in what sounds best, since WL has REAL-TIME editing :)

LMK if anyone wants a Trial Version of WL6 to play around with & I hope you find something that works out for you and improves your recording :)
Schoeps MK 4V & MK 41V ->
Schoeps 250|0 KCY's (x2) ->
Naiant +60v|Low Noise PFA's (x2) ->
DarkTrain Right Angle Stubby XLR's (x3) ->
Sound Devices MixPre-6 & MixPre-3

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/diskobean
http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/Bean420
http://bt.etree.org/mytorrents.php
http://www.mediafire.com/folder/j9eu80jpuaubz/Recordings

Offline Scooter123

  • "I am not an alcoholic. I am a drunk. Drunks don't go to meetings."
  • Trade Count: (9)
  • Needs to get out more...
  • *****
  • Posts: 3762
Re: Extreme Bass
« Reply #21 on: June 26, 2017, 11:56:00 PM »
I use High Pass
Regards,
Scooter123

mk41 > N Box  > Sony M-10
mk4 > N Box > Sony M-10

 

RSS | Mobile
Page created in 0.092 seconds with 46 queries.
© 2002-2024 Taperssection.com
Powered by SMF