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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: ts on October 09, 2013, 11:45:50 AM
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So what would you spend ~1500 on? I have a friend with a hole in his pocket. ;D Looking for small sized SD's. Preferably actives.
My choices:
Gefell M20(used)>Nbob's
Schoeps MK4(used)>NBob's
Beyer CK930's (New)
DPA 2011c's (New)
KM 184's (New)
Neumann KM140's with actives (Used)
What else?
Edited for mistakes and clarification.
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ts - this is very subjective, without any definitive answer. over the years, i have owned pairs of schoeps CMC64s, DPA 4011s, 4006s, 4061s, 4090s, sennheiser mkh 40s, gefell m300s, akg c481s, 461s, 391s, neumann km140s, km184s, AT4051s, and a wide variety of other midrange to very expensive mics. i have liked almost all of them. in the end, for my particlular tastes, i always found myself coming back to the neumanns.
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So what would you spend ~1500 on? I have a friend with a hole in his pocket. ;D
My choices:
Gefell M20(used)>Nbob's
Schoeps MK4(used)>NBob's
AKG CK930's (New)
DPA 2011c's (New)
KM 184's (New)
Neumann KM140's (Used)
What else?
do you mean the AKG ck61s, or the beyer ck930s?
If I had to only have one pair, I'd probably get the DPA 2011s, they have a tighter cardioid pattern than normal, they are relatively colorless, and they are expandable once you get into the system. After that, I'd pick either the gefell or beyers (likely in that order). Both are colored mics, so there will be some genres that just won't mesh as well with them but they have beautiful sounds. After that it's a toss between schoeps, akgs and neumanns. Something about the schoeps coloration bothers me on everything except a few styles of music, but I'd probably pick those over AKGs (which I don't necessarily fancy for room taping asd I don't like the spitty house sound with cymbals/vocals) and neumanns (which I have a love/hate relationship with). The neumanns are dead last as I think they are specialty mics. I love them on bluegrass and some distorted rock guitars, but I think they are crap on a ton of other stuff. The coloration either works well or it doesn't for me.
Just my 2 cents. As jnorman points out; it's particular tastes.
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
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Milab VM-44 Links? I love mine...
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Better bang for buck buying used. Otherwise give him a list and tell him to spend about an hour a day over 4 or 5 days listening to samples on the archive and then let him tell you what he wants. Make sure he doesn't decide based on one or two listening sessions only bc his taste might change a little from one day to next.
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I still think listening to archive samples is a crap shoot... :-\
and yes, I'm aware that it's probably the least bad option in a battle of lesser evils.
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Listening to archive isn't absolute by any means, but I think it's less of a crap shoot than basing off of someone elses tastes or not listening at all to get a general idea if the sound is something you'd be satisfied with. I think archive can give you a general feel of the flavor and quality of sound you'll get, realizing of course that there are many variables involved.
I have two specific experiences that come to mind...
Back in '06 when I got 'upgrade-itis' I got some MBHO's and I asked what preamp I should buy. Almost everyone said a SD MP-2. I listened to MBHO > MP-2 samples on the archive and generally I didn't like them. But I was new to this and I figured well everyone can't be wrong and maybe what I can get will be different so I posted an ISO for an MP2 and it hit. I got the MP-2 and my recordings sounded just like what I sampled...and I didn't like them. V8 shot to the head! I sold the preamp within a couple of months for less than I bought it for.
Second example I know I'll get hate mail about, but what the hell...is a Grace V3. Rarely hear a source on LMA that has a V3 in the chain that I really like. But so many people love that preamp and frankly, I love its form factor, feature sets, the company, etc. I love everything about it but the sound. I've convinced myself for some reason THREE separate times to buy a V3 even though I know I don't like the sound, only to turn around and sell it within a short time after I bought it.
If I'd just listen to and follow what I hear on archive, the bad decisions wouldn't have been made. But I realize it's all subjective. Anyway, these were two of my experiences.
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A list of mics to listen to that may be in the price range is the best option.
We all hear different.
I made my choices based on what I heard (though one absolutely has to factor in the types of venues and music involved - that after all is why some of us seek out different gear to use in different settings). I seem to have heard enough that was relevant that I wasn't disappointed.
Certain mics widely recommended (and mentioned above) I don't like and there are plenty around who don't like what I prefer.
EDIT: Also as noted the rest of the chain is a significant factor (relative to price and coloration/lack thereof).
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$1500 will be pretty tight for Schoeps plus cables, especially after you add the other stuff you'll need like wind screens, mounts, etc.
Beyond that I think the advice about what kind of music the person intends to record and in what situations is valuable. Also, how much they like to play with EQ and such things. Flatter mics like DPAs and Schoeps won't necessarily sound good, IMO, unless you're willing to use EQ (though that's less-true of some Schoeps than others).
Some mics also respond much better with certain pres than others, so that part of his gear chain is important, too. To take a simple example, I think Gefells and MBHOs benefit from that transformery warmth of the Aerco. To me, Schoeps and DPAs are benefited by the cleaner sound of the SD preamps (and probably the V2/V3; I've never owned one of those).
It really all depends. Being realistic about price range, the AKG system is probably the most versatile, and you could get hypers and cards for what just one capsule would run you in some of those others.
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I guess I should have added: he will be borrowing my V2 indefinitely and will be recording stuff like ABB, DMB, PLF, Phish, etc.
Thinking back, my favorite combo was Neumann>V2/3. Second fav is DPA>SD 7 series, for this same type of music. 3rd was Schoeps>V2/3. My bud kinda has his wallet set for the M20>Nbob deal, but used is a real longshot on those.
And yes, he has been all over the archive. He's a mid 80's GD taper looking to get back in the game.
Thanks everyone. Keep the thoughts coming.
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I think archive can give you a general feel of the flavor and quality of sound you'll get, realizing of course that there are many variables involved.
listening to samples on the LMA is frought with peril, but if you take the variables into consideration and don't think of the samples as exact representations of the performance/quality of the mics then it can be extremely helpful. since ts's buddy is mainly wanting to record "jam bands" (for lack of a better term) the LMA is a good resource.
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Either used mk4/41>NBobs or new mg20/21>NBobs ;)
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Listening to archive isn't absolute by any means, but I think it's less of a crap shoot than basing off of someone elses tastes or not listening at all to get a general idea if the sound is something you'd be satisfied with.
I'll go for that.
To be fair, he asked what would you choose. ;) :P
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I'd look go for the DPA's, Schoeps or the Gefells
Buy used if you can which will limit you to Schoeps (unless you have a lead on the Gefells already)
If you go the DPA route I'd get the new rear address extension cables instead of the others - you will prob need to wait until they release a stereo kit
I am a Schoeps fan over the other two but very curious about the other two
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Second example I know I'll get hate mail about, but what the hell...is a Grace V3. Rarely hear a source on LMA that has a V3 in the chain that I really like. But so many people love that preamp and frankly, I love its form factor, feature sets, the company, etc. I love everything about it but the sound. I've convinced myself for some reason THREE separate times to buy a V3 even though I know I don't like the sound, only to turn around and sell it within a short time after I bought it.
I couldnt agree more with you buddy ;) I have even run a v3 a couple of different times as well. I first started using my 1st V3 in like summer of 2003, with my old 480s. I LOVED that combo, at least til I upgraded my playback system, and then once I did that, I was not really happy with the V3s overall sound. Hell, I even bought a MODDED Sony SBM1 ADC to run 480>V3>Analog Out>Sony SBM1, and found that I liked the v3s preamps, but didnt care for the v3s ADC AT ALL :( Running the Mod SBM1 def helped tho. And once I got my 722 in early 2006, I ran 480>V3>722 and sold the v3 pretty quick because it was a waste running the v3 just for its preamps. So I sold the V3 and bought a Sax and V2 and ran 480>V2/Sax>722 and eventually sold both preamps because I preferred the 722s preamps ;) Back then, I was basically a guinea pig and was one of the first ones to run 480>V3, so there werent ANY samples on the LMA for that combo. I wish there was because I wouldve just sold the V3 alot sooner and probably just bought a used V2. I'm JUST like tonedeaf tho, I love EVERY aspect of the V3, well, except for it SOUND :P :( I take that back, I LIKE the V3s preamps for the most part, but never cared for its ADC ;)
So in a nutshell, Im very glad that the LMA exists at all, especially since its a GREAT way to test the waters on which sound you prefer. Just the other day I got on the LMA to search for Schoeps>Aerco MP2 sound, since someone posted that Aerco MP2 for sale. Well, not knocking anyone, but I really didnt care for that particular Schoeps>Aerco MP2 sound at all, so I figured Id just stick with my Schoeps>LB[OT] sound, since thats what I prefer. Im VERY HAPPY that the LMA is around, because I mightve sold one of my LBs and bought that Aerco, and then been NOT HAPPY with the Aerco in the end. So IMO, the LMA saved me close to $600 just the other day ;) 8)
And since finding USED MG caps will be next to impossible, Id go the Schoeps route, but thats MY opinion because those are my FAV mics out there, so take that with a grain of salt ;) Ive never been a Neumann fan, so I wouldnt got that route either. Id go with Schoeps or DPA, just like H20 suggested!
BTW, which mics do YOU prefer ??? You've been at this long enough now ;) So which mics do YOU prefer? 8)
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
I've never seen these come up used. What would they likely cost? Same with the Milabs. I have no feel on used pricing.
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
I've never seen these come up used. What would they likely cost? Same with the Milabs. I have no feel on used pricing.
I've never seen Milabs up for sale used either, but when I bought mine new a few years ago it was below the price mark you have set. I know they have gone up, but new milabs may not kill the budget as much as you think-
contact Dirk @ Big Purple Dog for a quote-
Dirk Cota
Big Purple Dog Productions, LLC
PO Box 8185
Hermitage, TN 37076
(615) 417-9963
http://www.bigpurpledog.com
dirk@bigpurpledog.com
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
I've never seen these come up used. What would they likely cost? Same with the Milabs. I have no feel on used pricing.
I've never seen Milabs up for sale used either, but when I bought mine new a few years ago it was below the price mark you have set. I know they have gone up, but new milabs may not kill the budget as much as you think-
contact Dirk @ Big Purple Dog for a quote-
Dirk Cota
Big Purple Dog Productions, LLC
PO Box 8185
Hermitage, TN 37076
(615) 417-9963
http://www.bigpurpledog.com
dirk@bigpurpledog.com
Thanks for the info. I'll have to check prices and hopefully add to the list.
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Better bang for buck buying used. Otherwise give him a list and tell him to spend about an hour a day over 4 or 5 days listening to samples on the archive and then let him tell you what he wants. Make sure he doesn't decide based on one or two listening sessions only bc his taste might change a little from one day to next.
QT. I listed some as new because they fell into his budget. I never see the CK930's used and the 2011C's are still to new to find in the used market. The 184's do pop up used for what, $1000? The 140's with actives are probably pushing the budget.
As far as the LMA for listening, my approach has always been to weed out situations that don't apply to me. I rarely go FOB so I try to pick OTS recordings with the mics I'm reviewing and then match them to a pre and bands I'm familiar with. Not always easy.
The 2011c's are very close to budget. The MMC pre is small enough to use the supplied clips with some of our mounting solutions, but it's the funky cap that has us on the fence. Yes, we do have other cap options but that puts us way over budget.
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Listening to archive isn't absolute by any means, but I think it's less of a crap shoot than basing off of someone elses tastes or not listening at all to get a general idea if the sound is something you'd be satisfied with.
I'll go for that.
To be fair, he asked what would you choose. ;) :P
In that case, I'd choose to not buy mics and use the money to pay part of my club dues so I could keep golfing. I love this hobby to death but it's more expensive than my last hobby, which I got out of because it was too expensive. ;D
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You might want to consider a pair of akg 414. You'll have nice sounding mics and 9 patterns to boot. On the used market you would be able to put a bit of scratch back in your pocket.
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You might want to consider a pair of akg 414. You'll have nice sounding mics and 9 patterns to boot. On the used market you would be able to put a bit of scratch back in your pocket.
Oops, forgot to ad. He's looking for small sized SD's. Preferably active types. I fixed the OP.
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What about Busman BSC2s ??? They are WELL BELOW the $1,500 price range, and sound awesome, at least IMO. I ran BSC2>LB[OT] almost ALL of 2012, and I was always happy with those recordings, even when compared to my Schoeps>Sax I was running at the time ;) He can spend the extra $700 he'll have and buy a kickass preamp. I bet the BSC2 would sound KILLER with a used V2 ;)
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
I've never seen these come up used. What would they likely cost? Same with the Milabs. I have no feel on used pricing.
True, and I understand that some of the early MKH8040s had issues which were fixed in later production, so you may need to take notice of the manufacture date and whether it has been serviced. Alternatively, the predecessor mic, the MKH40 (and its hyper and omni versions) does come up used from time to time, and is a really great mic as well. But either the MKH40 or MKH8040 would be pushing the budget, unless you got lucky. They usually go for between $800 and 900 each used, although a single just went on ebay for $532 - a real bargain. I opted to just go for the MKH40 and was fortunate enough to snag a used pair of e-bay.
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In that case, I'd choose to not buy mics and use the money to pay part of my club dues so I could keep golfing. I love this hobby to death but it's more expensive than my last hobby, which I got out of because it was too expensive. ;D
I only don't catch flack from my better half because she has a money sink as well.
Although I did catch a couple of strange looks from her this summer after I started schlepping all of this junk out and about...
I never see the CK930's used
the beyers are likely about $800 for a used pair, maybe less (I can't remember what I moved mine for, sorry), but you're right they don't come up often. Small supply, but also small demand.
What about Busman BSC2s ??? They are WELL BELOW the $1,500 price range
how are they sonically different from the first line? I remember hearing a bunch of tapes of bsc1s and was never impressed with the sound regardless of what preamp was used.
They are great starter mics, and if this person is not sure whether they want to get back into taping, then maybe that's an option. I think mterry was trying to move his set a while ago. If the person is accustomed to sound from better mics and has done this before and has cash to burn, I'm not sure I'd suggest them though, at least not without a different sound than the first line.
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What about Busman BSC2s ??? They are WELL BELOW the $1,500 price range, and sound awesome, at least IMO. I ran BSC2>LB[OT] almost ALL of 2012, and I was always happy with those recordings, even when compared to my Schoeps>Sax I was running at the time ;) He can spend the extra $700 he'll have and buy a kickass preamp. I bet the BSC2 would sound KILLER with a used V2 ;)
This!
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What about Busman BSC2s ??? They are WELL BELOW the $1,500 price range, and sound awesome, at least IMO. I ran BSC2>LB[OT] almost ALL of 2012, and I was always happy with those recordings, even when compared to my Schoeps>Sax I was running at the time ;) He can spend the extra $700 he'll have and buy a kickass preamp. I bet the BSC2 would sound KILLER with a used V2 ;)
This!
GREAT minds think alike ;)
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my $.02
Have him put his money into his playback system.
listen to more LMA samples. Try to look at the rooms being recorded. Inside, outside, bars, clubs, hockey rinks..etc.
Then when it comes time to buy recording gear, start CHEAP and work up.
Starting with the best of the best..which are not designed for our use in the first place...is the start of an expensive ride. buy everything used if possible. Value retention is best.
That said, I've pulled the heat with the shittiest cheap mics. And I've pulled junk with $5k soundfields. I've also had good/bad results with everything in between in every location under the sun that a taper might find themselves in.
In terms of consistently pleasing results....
- my schoeps mk4/8 vst64 setup running Mid-Side was real nice nearly all the time.
- SP LSD2 seldom, if ever failed to produce great recordings from anywhere.
- AKG jwMOD 461s > Apogee MMP > MR1 was by far one of my best sounding rigs ever.
- I've owned 3 different sets of Neumann km140s. I like their flavor. And seeing how I came back to them that often...tells me something (why didn't I listen?)
- M-Audio Pulsar II mics have never ceased to amaze me in terms of smooth ass sounding mics for cheap money (running into expensive preamps, cheap preams, no preamps or straight into my various SBD's I've owned)
- I'm currently enjoying my Superlux s502 ORTF stereo mic. Something on the "warm side" in a preamp would be very nice sounding w/them, I bet. Hell, I've run them directly into a crappy old MicroTrak ...using it's on-board phantom (mics>deck) and had excellent results. Go figure.
Also, I think how much whiskey you drink while recording makes a difference. :)
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Sennheiser MKH8040 (used)
I've never seen these come up used. What would they likely cost? Same with the Milabs. I have no feel on used pricing.
i haven't seen a pair of the MKH8040ST mics come up for sale used, but i would guess that $1,500-$1,600 is a good estimate if you can find them. new they are about $2,199.
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Nevaton MC49's...... Not Actives.... but they are the best fixed card on the market, Bar none.... Can be had 1100-1400$ used...
I wouldn't get caught up in the active hype. Most bands we record are open... no real need for actives. Nice to have but not necessary.
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Most bands we record are open...
Really?
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I wouldn't get caught up in the active hype. Most bands we record are open... no real need for actives. Nice to have but not necessary.
They're not hype. Having a smaller rig to travel with and/or set up has a lot of advantages (especially if you have to clamp in a tight spot).
And as was quoted above, most of the bands I tape are NOT open although I've been migrating to getting permission which is a lot easier than having to run covert.
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I've been migrating to getting permission which is a lot easier than having to run covert.
But not half as much fun! >:D
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I wouldn't get caught up in the active hype. Most bands we record are open... no real need for actives. Nice to have but not necessary.
They're not hype. Having a smaller rig to travel with and/or set up has a lot of advantages (especially if you have to clamp in a tight spot).
That's also a slight overgeneralization.
All of the real active setups (that is, made by the manufacturers) other than the Schoeps ones that involve their rather large Schoeps brand preamp do not reduce the size of the rig you carry; in fact, they increase it in some ways. Schoeps MKx>KCx>CMCx is obviously not smaller than simply screwing capsules on CMCs and running normal cables. Ditto Neumann versions. AKG of course doesn't have their own manufacturer branded setup; nor does Gefell.
I like running some of the homebrew or semi-homebrew "active" setups for convenience, but do so with the knowledge that I am almost certainly sacrificing a small measure of sound quality or stability. If you don't stealth, there is not *that* much difference between carrying a cigar case with a couple thin mics in it and carrying capsules around that you screw onto cables. The other area where you save with actives space-wise is using "Kwon" and various other bars, but of course, if you do so, you give up flexibility of setup and, assuming you're using Shure donuts, you sacrifice some stability relative to, say, using Rycotes.
If I didn't stealth and getting the best mic within a fairly fixed budget was my top priority, I think skipping active setups is probably the right move unless you go for one of the homebrew solutions that actually costs less.
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So what would you spend ~1500 on? I have a friend with a hole in his pocket. ;D Looking for small sized SD's. Preferably actives.
My choices:
Gefell M20(used)>Nbob's
Schoeps MK4(used)>NBob's
Beyer CK930's (New)
DPA 2011c's (New)
KM 184's (New)
Neumann KM140's with actives (Used)
What else?
The Gefell M300 comes into this price bracket.
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So what would you spend ~1500 on? I have a friend with a hole in his pocket. ;D Looking for small sized SD's. Preferably actives.
My choices:
Gefell M20(used)>Nbob's
Schoeps MK4(used)>NBob's
Beyer CK930's (New)
DPA 2011c's (New)
KM 184's (New)
Neumann KM140's with actives (Used)
What else?
The Gefell M300 comes into this price bracket.
Hardly ever see these used. 2K new.
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New AKG ck61/3 caps and Nbob cables!!
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New AKG ck61/3 caps and Nbob cables!!
Used MK4's>Nbob's ;)
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Good call!!
New AKG ck61/3 caps and Nbob cables!!
Used MK4's>Nbob's ;)
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New AKG ck61/3 caps and Nbob cables!!
Used MK4's>Nbob's ;)
New CK61 & CK63's > Nbob's
keep teh moist earthy change
>:D
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All of the real active setups (that is, made by the manufacturers) other than the Schoeps ones that involve their rather large Schoeps brand preamp do not reduce the size of the rig you carry; in fact, they increase it in some ways. Schoeps MKx>KCx>CMCx is obviously not smaller than simply screwing capsules on CMCs and running normal cables. Ditto Neumann versions. AKG of course doesn't have their own manufacturer branded setup; nor does Gefell.
The modular DPAs with the new active cables...Granted, it only saves about an inch, compared to the compact bodies, but still a bit smaller. And less pieces...
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Since he'll be running the V2 most all of the time I would shoot for something in the brighter category or something with a slight presence peak. The V2 always seemed to have a flatter, somewhat closed in high end to my ears. I'm thinking if he can come up with the Milabs on budget they would work VERY well in that combo.
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Get another 300 bucks and you can get two used kmr81i's.
These are neumanns so you know they gonna work for ever and sound great. As far as I know, I am the only one who used these in the jamband scene, I am getting older now, so i dont mind sharing my secrets.
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I still think Mkxx>KCY>LB/TB/VMS02ib is about as small and HQ as one can get. But obviously that's just MY opinion ;)
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Since he'll be running the V2 most all of the time I would shoot for something in the brighter category or something with a slight presence peak. The V2 always seemed to have a flatter, somewhat closed in high end to my ears. I'm thinking if he can come up with the Milabs on budget they would work VERY well in that combo.
It's so funny reading this and, to me, says so much about how personal sound interpretation actually is. The reason I say this is because I've always experienced exactly the opposite with both the V2 and V3 as your comment. I've owned two v2 and three V3's over the years and when I listen to a V2 source or V3 source for any length of time, while I like the high end detail, after awhile it starts to hurt my ears because my ears pick up so much high end emphasis. So I always had to EQ out high end on my V2 or V3 sources to fit my taste.
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Not actives, but for less than $1500, your friend could get some used AT 4051's and pick up a set of 53 hyper caps. I love mine.
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Look closely at the moving letters. Your getting sleepy..... Sleepy.... Sleepy.. now take a deep breath.
Now say quietly to yourself MC49's... After the 5th pass... your awake and your answer will be clear!
Nevaton MC49's
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Since he'll be running the V2 most all of the time I would shoot for something in the brighter category or something with a slight presence peak. The V2 always seemed to have a flatter, somewhat closed in high end to my ears. I'm thinking if he can come up with the Milabs on budget they would work VERY well in that combo.
It's so funny reading this and, to me, says so much about how personal sound interpretation actually is. The reason I say this is because I've always experienced exactly the opposite with both the V2 and V3 as your comment. I've owned two v2 and three V3's over the years and when I listen to a V2 source or V3 source for any length of time, while I like the high end detail, after awhile it starts to hurt my ears because my ears pick up so much high end emphasis. So I always had to EQ out high end on my V2 or V3 sources to fit my taste.
Totally agree buddy ;) Ive owned a few diff v2/v3s and I always found them to be grating in the highs. I even ran v3>ModSBM1>JB3 back in the day, and whil;e that helped, it didnt solve the issue. But that was with 480s, which I found to be bright too :)
I would like to give a v2 a try with my mk4s tho ;)