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Author Topic: Baffled sub-cards question  (Read 6685 times)

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Offline Jimna

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Baffled sub-cards question
« on: April 25, 2008, 11:43:53 AM »
i poked around last night looking for the answer with no luck, can anyone tell me what position i want my caps according to the j-disc?  same as omni's (20-30*toe out and tight against the baffle)?  im planning to run these tonight for the bridge in harrisburg, love new trying configs.  im loving all the options the cap assortment these busmans give me too.


thanks for the help!
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Offline KLowe

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2008, 12:18:20 PM »
I don't know the "Official" word...but I toe them out a bit also.  (point at stacks).  There is some info about better high frequency pickup with the toe out.

Where is DSatz?  ;D
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2008, 12:30:57 PM »
I don't know the "Official" word...but I toe them out a bit also.  (point at stacks).  There is some info about better high frequency pickup with the toe out.

Where is DSatz?  ;D
makes sense, but the more i toe out the farther i will get from the j-disc (small diaphragms).   how important is the distance from the j-disc?  i know omni's need to be close to get the desired image.
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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2008, 01:05:05 PM »
They are placed about 165 mm apart (calculated to give the proper time difference between the two channels). The idea is that as frequency increases, so does the percieved seperation of the microphones.. At around 200 Hz, the microphones pick up the same but above this, frequencies are attenuated by the acoustic damping properties of the disc.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 01:21:12 PM by Teddy »

Offline Brian Skalinder

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2008, 01:33:51 PM »
how important is the distance from the j-disc?  i know omni's need to be close to get the desired image.

Same concept applies for subcards.  The subcard has a bit of rear attenuation, but the distance from the j-disc will still have a significant impact on your stereo separation.
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2008, 01:50:04 PM »
just the info i needed.  thanks fellas.  T's
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2008, 01:52:48 PM »
...to bad the actives arent ready for these yet, that would allow me to get maximum angle while still keeping them tight to the j-disc. 
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2008, 02:09:16 PM »
What they said.  Correct spacing is important.  

Of course many people deviate from the Jecklin standard, personally I prefer a bit wider spacing for more separation at lower frequencies but that becomes difficult because you either need to get closer to the source or use a larger diameter disk to keep the same angle between the edge of the baffle and the mics.  From what I've read, it seems Mr. Jecklin modified his technique latter in a similar way (spaing approx. 15" with a 15" in disk if I remember right). Going the other way, Moke's mini-jecklins need the mics closer to the surface for effective baffling given the small size of the baffle.

I've thought of using two small disks and spacing the disks apart to increase the low end separation to avoid needing a Kimber ISO-phone size monster disk.  Idea being to keep the angles right and the mic to disk space small enough to be effective with a small disk. Just another untried wacky idea for now - baffled A-B, I guess.
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2008, 03:18:34 PM »
my j-disc is 15" X 15" square.  maybe ill try a slightly wider spread and minimal angles.  maybe not, maybe ill just run the 165mm and as much angle as i can, which wont be much given the thickness of my j-disc.  humm, decisions decisions... ???
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2008, 05:25:45 PM »
Using a mic with a freq. response that favors diffuse-field recording will also help.

Excellent point.  The baffle seems to reduce a bit of the top end response to my ear vs the same mics without.
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Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #10 on: April 25, 2008, 05:42:35 PM »
Using a mic with a freq. response that favors diffuse-field recording will also help.

Excellent point.  The baffle seems to reduce a bit of the top end response to my ear vs the same mics without.

What the hell is that goofy guy wearing in your avatar I have wondered this for quite some time.. :)
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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2008, 06:40:51 PM »

What the hell is that goofy guy wearing in your avatar I have wondered this for quite some time.. :)

A sound collection and amplification device.

I ran across him looking into the history of Alan Blumlein's work.  Blumlein's early radar research (which brought upon his untimely death by plane crash) lead me to a bunch of really interesting info on sound amplification and collection devices used to listen for approaching aircraft before the electronic era.  You may have seen photos of giant arrays of victrola-like horns pointing at the sky or the huge concrete sound reflecting walls and parabolas built in along the english channel designed to amplify and discern the direction of approaching planes.  Militaries also wanted portable units and that poor sap is just a hapless inventor type who had a great idea, but lacked the grounding in reality to build something that actually worked. 

I have a soft spot for those who actually try and follow through on with seemingly ridiculous ideas.  Years spent tinkering in the garage and dreaming up all sorts of cool stuff that I never have time to develop make me envious of those sorts that put so much effort into things that I would dismiss as totally unpragmatic.  I love the poetry in their eyes.  In a similar vein, here's my current desktop (linked from a recent desktop thread here, apologies for the size but it's all in the eyes)-

musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Alexandru Petrescu

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2008, 06:42:22 PM »
Using a mic with a freq. response that favors diffuse-field recording will also help.

Excellent point.  The baffle seems to reduce a bit of the top end response to my ear vs the same mics without.

What the hell is that goofy guy wearing in your avatar I have wondered this for quite some time.. :)


"1960 Maritime acoustic radar"... and others at http://www.oobject.com/category/incredible-listening-devices/

There exist acoustic amplifiers even for mp3 players.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2008, 06:43:28 PM »
^^^
Nice find. Lots of even crazier headgear there!

 I also just like that he looks like some absent minded mad scentist in an over-engineered tinfoil hat.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 06:47:00 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Alexandru Petrescu

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2008, 06:47:35 PM »
I also just like that he looks like some absent minded mad scentist in an over-engineered tinfoil hat.

Edit: sorry, results of further Internet searching may imply that inventor's name is Jean Auscher and he may be the one in the picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/47218773@N00/2335680028/  he seems to be famous in a well developped field (and life-saving during times of war) prior to arrival of electronic radars http://acusticaweb.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=86&Itemid=6
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:01:00 PM by Alexandru Petrescu »

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #15 on: April 25, 2008, 07:17:30 PM »
continuing the total threadjack..

(in order)
Japanese victrola version
French filigree version
German flying saucer version
US version
And the massive English sound walls and parabolas as they appear today


musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2008, 07:18:46 PM »

What the hell is that goofy guy wearing in your avatar I have wondered this for quite some time.. :)

A sound collection and amplification device.

I ran across him looking into the history of Alan Blumlein's work.  Blumlein's early radar research (which brought upon his untimely death by plane crash) lead me to a bunch of really interesting info on sound amplification and collection devices used to listen for approaching aircraft before the electronic era.  You may have seen photos of giant arrays of victrola-like horns pointing at the sky or the huge concrete sound reflecting walls and parabolas built in along the english channel designed to amplify and discern the direction of approaching planes.  Militaries also wanted portable units and that poor sap is just a hapless inventor type who had a great idea, but lacked the grounding in reality to build something that actually worked. 

I have a soft spot for those who actually try and follow through on with seemingly ridiculous ideas.  Years spent tinkering in the garage and dreaming up all sorts of cool stuff that I never have time to develop make me envious of those sorts that put so much effort into things that I would dismiss as totally unpragmatic.  I love the poetry in their eyes.  In a similar vein, here's my current desktop (linked from a recent desktop thread here, apologies for the size but it's all in the eyes)-



When you have some time send me a link that sounds interesting.
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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2008, 07:31:22 PM »


I ran across him looking into the history of Alan Blumlein's work. 
you need to read


Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2008, 07:52:33 PM »
^^^
That and Bob Katz's Mastering book are on my reading list, Teddy.  Thanks for reminding me.  Any good books on Harvey Fletcher and the Bell Labs guys doing stereo developent on this side of the pond?

Chris,
Here's one site where I found alot on those things: The Museum of RetroTechnology.
There is a sub page on the airplane listening devices and new sub-page spoofing Hi-Fi tweakage history featuring my man Aushcer.  It appears he gets around.

Don't know where the birdman came from, I found him looking into flapping wing propulsion for a kayak/canoe.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2008, 07:58:52 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Church-Audio

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2008, 08:32:29 PM »
^^^
That and Bob Katz's Mastering book are on my reading list, Teddy.  Thanks for reminding me.  Any good books on Harvey Fletcher and the Bell Labs guys doing stereo developent on this side of the pond?

Chris,
Here's one site where I found alot on those things: The Museum of RetroTechnology.
There is a sub page on the airplane listening devices and new sub-page spoofing Hi-Fi tweakage history featuring my man Aushcer.  It appears he gets around.

Don't know where the birdman came from, I found him looking into flapping wing propulsion for a kayak/canoe.

Thanks I appreciated that.. Interesting stuff I love the belt radio nothing like having a few hundred volts around your belt! I would sure as shit not want it to rain when I was wearing this thing... Um not to mention the heat from the tubes lol....He kinda looks stoned in this picture.... :o

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #20 on: April 26, 2008, 12:45:38 AM »
^^^
That and Bob Katz's Mastering book are on my reading list, Teddy.  Thanks for reminding me.  Any good books on Harvey Fletcher and the Bell Labs guys doing stereo developent on this side of the pond?

Chris,
Here's one site where I found alot on those things: The Museum of RetroTechnology.
There is a sub page on the airplane listening devices and new sub-page spoofing Hi-Fi tweakage history featuring my man Aushcer.  It appears he gets around.

Don't know where the birdman came from, I found him looking into flapping wing propulsion for a kayak/canoe.

A couple of others..



and all the john eargle books...handbook of recording engineering, sound recording, and the microphone book...oh and john culshaw's "ring resounding", and "mixing with your mind"...when you finish those, let me know..ive got more. ;)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #21 on: April 26, 2008, 12:54:40 AM »
Ha Ha, both are on my Amazon list and have been stewing there for a few years.  I need to get back into serious readin' mode.  Thanks once again for the priority readjustment.

Jimna, here's your thread back.. thanks for the loan.   ;) Let's see it's 12:50AM, which means you are probably recording with the subcards & J-disk at this very moment.  Let us know how it goes.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2008, 01:01:05 AM »
Ha Ha, both are on my Amazon list and have been stewing there for a few years.  I need to get back into serious readin' mode.  Thanks once again for the priority readjustment.

Jimna, here's your thread back.. thanks for the loan.   ;) Let's see it's 12:50AM, which means you are probably recording with the subcards & J-disk at this very moment.  Let us know how it goes.

reading those books(along with John Moulton's "Golden Ears" course) and the tips I get from picking real engineers brains have done a lot to help me get better at recording. I read something nearly every day, and learn something new everytime I record.  AES library is a great resource too...as is "audio eXpress, the magazine(you need a subscription to that, a great mag!!)


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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #23 on: April 26, 2008, 01:12:57 AM »
How was Moulton's "Golden Ears" course?  That's another one that I've though about, time and again for years.  I read a bunch of articles off his website several years back and enjoyed them.  Always wanted to hear some of his sound sculpture compositions. Interesting guy.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline boojum

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2008, 01:24:25 AM »
I have used these two short papers to study and build my Jecklin.
Nov schmoz kapop.

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2008, 03:32:18 AM »
How was Moulton's "Golden Ears" course?  That's another one that I've though about, time and again for years.  I read a bunch of articles off his website several years back and enjoyed them.  Always wanted to hear some of his sound sculpture compositions. Interesting guy.

very, very good. I use it every day...it has been a tremendous help to me.

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2008, 04:20:02 AM »
To get back on the topic of subcards w/ a jecklin disc, I see the experimental point of view of what you want to do Jimbo, but Im not sure why youd want to do it other than experimenting? I have always thought that NOS was the oNLY way to run subcards because it seems like teh PERFECT config for that pattern :)

BUT, I can see why you want to do it, and I sure hope youre onto something and it sounds amazing when youre done :)

I mean, the point of a jecklin disc is to give omnis that feeling of being psuedo-split and to open them up, while maintaining as little space as possible to achieve that 'split' sound/feeling. I just dont know how well it will work realistically. Guess we wont know until you try it out for real tho, eh? ;D

I would just think that NOS would be the way to go for simplicity and for a guaranteed sound, but without actives running NOS, either running full-bodies/NOS or on a jecklin disc, eitehr way youre going to take up about as much space so might as well try it :) IU am VERY curious to hear it tho ;D I am sure it will take a few attemps to get your angle and spacing just right tho. I ran my 482's/J-Disc for just a few shows/setsw back in 2005 and I angled my omnis at about 30* from the face of the disc, and they were 6" apart from each mic, so just 3" from the face on each side, and I was quite happy w/ those results. I would have liked to have ran the 482's/j-disc alot more but I didnt get it all together until the end of summer(moedown 2005) and sold my omnis shortly after.

So, what is your goal here Jimbo? To get a wider imaging and feeling than just plain NOS or something similar? Or just to get a whole different feeling altogether from the usual configs w/ subcards and hope you strike gold? Like I said, I sure hope it works out so we all have a new config to try out w/ the subcards, but IMO, NOS is the standard for subcards for simplicity and sound and I cant EVER see myself running them any differently. But what fun is that? experimenting is a great thing. Just think if noone ever tried DIN or DINa or ORTF or NOS to begin with? We would all be pointing at the stacks :) I tried something very different for RAQ NYE 2007 and ran my MBHO Hypers/NOS on the KwonBar and boy am I glad I did ;D I would only suggest doing that WAY FOB like I was in the 9th row/DFC for RAQ NYE because of the wide separation on the caps and because I didnt want that dreaded 'hole in the middle'. But Hypers/NOS worked out EXTREMELY well that night. Its not something I would do all the time because the location had to be PERFECT for me to even attempt it, plus EVERYONE else was running DINa/DIN, and I had my safety rig on the balcony DFC running 483(DINa)>722, so I figured what the hell? ;D

It would be AWESOME if you could borrow another pair of the busman subcards and ran one pair NOS and the other pair on the j-disc, and ran all 4 channels into the same mod on an R-4 :) THAT would be the way to go, and could really see/hear the differences in the two configs!

I dont now what Im getting at or trying to say. Mostly just LATENITE rambling.

Good luck my friend! We all will be waiting to hear the end result.
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #27 on: April 26, 2008, 12:20:01 PM »
well im only half way through the recording but im very happy with the results.  first off, all set up mumbo-jumbo aside, these mics sound so damn good, thank you chris johnson!  i think the image seems much more pronounced & wider than what i got with NOS.  i am VERY happy with this recording.  very natural sounding w/ a very flat response and a terrific stereo spread.

i ran a set of 483's in DIN also so ill have something to compare to for some sense of scope of the sound that night. 

bean is right, 2 sets of the same mics, into the same preamps, sporting opposing configs would give us the ultimate answer, but thats one tall order to fill.

ill up the recordings on LMA & post links here so everyone can hear/decide for themselves.

thanks for all the advice.  yinz kick ass n@!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2008, 12:35:42 PM by Jimna »
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Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2008, 12:36:55 PM »
oh and thanks for the reading recommendations too.

+T
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
+ 48 Channel Multi-track rig

Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST
-FZ

Offline Jimna

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Re: Baffled sub-cards question
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2008, 10:36:31 PM »
some follow up, the Busman's Wide Cards Baffled (J-disc, 165mm @ 30*) and the 483's to gage the sound there against:

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,103026.new.html#new

what does everyone think? 
Co-Founder of F.M.Recording 
SD: Busman Audio BSC1-K1/K2/K3/K4 > Grace Lunatec V3 > Busman Hybrid R4
LD: ADK A-51TL MP > Busman Hybrid R4
+ 48 Channel Multi-track rig

Canon 5D Mark II, Canon 2x Extender Mark III, Canon 15mm f2.8, Canon 85mm f/1.8 USM, Canon 100mm Macro f2.8, Canon 16-35mm L f2.8, Canon 24-70mm L f/2.8, Canon 70-200mm L f2.8 IS, Canon ST-E2, Canon 580ex II (x2), Canon 430ex II, PocketWizard PLUS II(x4), Radiopopper PX System

http://jmimna.com/

Information is not knowledge
Knowledge is not wisdom
Wisdom is not truth
Truth is not beauty
Beauty is not love
Love is not music
Music is THE BEST
-FZ

 

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