Topic: Can Anyone post pics of ORTF bar close ups?

[ArchivalAudio]

Hey
I know Schoeps make some sweet  "array" bars
specifically I'm interested in ORTF
also DIN & NOS

and not just Schoeps bars
I'm interested in other  stereo bar configurations
mostly close ups of how the "active" or "colette" caps slide or thread in and mount on the bars

 I guess the Schoeps STCg Bar is what I'm referring to
but also other similar bars

Why?
cause I want to see if there could be a way to make a nice DIY bar for that type of purpose

thanx tons in advance
peace
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

I found this:



but it does not show how the cable  threads through

thanx

[fozzy]

i have some coming in a few minutes, charging the camera battery, I killed it taking the pics of my DIN kwon bar and a STCg

[ArchivalAudio]

i have some coming in a few minutes, charging the camera battery, I killed it taking the pics of my DIN kwon bar and a STCg

Fozzy
Super cool!

[fozzy]

Top/Black bar is the DIN kwon bar, other is the schoeps ORTF bar

[ArchivalAudio]

here are some "active type" stereo bars that I've rigged:
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,98523.0.html
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v729/MokePics2/Homemade%20gear/

Moke
nice!
I think I saw some of these before
but
not all...

I was kind of thinking
of a PVC pipe Cut to a 55° angle on each end and a elastic cord  threaded thru and some spring restrainer clips
of course with a end that has been  rounded concave to receive the edge side of the capsule
so I can use one shock mount in the center

hard to descibe clearly
but I have the vision

thanx
-- Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

Fozzy

is there a way you might be able to post some pics of the caps being threaded thru the end of the bar?

I have not actually used or handled one of these bars, just admired them from afar
so I am unfamiliar with how
the caps are threaded and stay inplace

[ArchivalAudio]

oh
fozzy
I forgot to say thanx

thank you so much for taking and posting the pics that you have already done
that's very helpful

[stevetoney]

Kibitzing so I hope you don't mind me providing input.  There are three key design features of these bars that make them really cool. 

1) They're are made from a phenolyc type material.
2) The dimensions are such that the capsules and/or capsule grommet kinda snap into place. 
3) The split is a key design feature of these bars because they provide two rigid 'fingers' between which the capsule snaps into place...and it's the rigidity of the fingers that holds the hardware nice and tightly in place and at the correct angle.

Pluses
-  Rigid and lightweight
-  Detented...so holds the capsules with sufficient tightness so they don't come loose during the show
-  Holds the capsules at the proper angle.  Little 'play' so angle is maintained when on a stand and cables pull a little bit.
-  Small and fits easily into gig-bag.
-  Removes guesswork for setting capsule angle and width.
-  Saves time when a quick setup needed to keep from missing the first notes.

Minuses
-  Not adjustable, so only one bar per configuration.
-  Since they 'grip' the grommet, they can marr up a grommet that's coated with soft plastic (e.g. Neumann LC3's) if you're not careful putting them in and taking them out.
-  WAY TOO EXPENSIVE

[ArchivalAudio]

Tonedeaf
thanx for those insights
however
what is the

a phenolyc type material

you refer to, I guess I need to look that up?
as you may know
I am thinking of how the Milab VM-44 links would best be fitted into a bar like this

without actually having them yet
I don't know how the caps compare to the neumann or schoeps

does Kwon still make his bars? if so, how does one contact him?

I see that the STCg bar runs for $155
which could be reasonable if the milabs fit the bar, which I almost doubt that they would.

[stevetoney]

It's some kinda black plastic, but it's not just plastic.  It's some bake-o-lite type of crap.  I have no idea what the official name of the material is, but it ain't your run of the mill plastic.

Neumann mounts WILL NOT work with the VM44 links.  The grommet on the Neumann mics is smaller than the grommet on the Milab...or is it too big.  Frankly I can't remember which is bigger and which is smaller...but the bottom line is that they aren't the same size so the Neumann mounts won't work. 

The Neumann KWON bar also will not work with those mics for the same reason. 

(I had them all at the same time, Neumann mics, Milab mics, Neumann STC-100 mount and Neumann KWON bar.)

I have no clue if the Scheops KWON would work.

EDIT:  After think about this HARD (it's been over a year) I'm pretty sure that the VM-44link grommet is bigger than the Neumann.  The reason I say this is that I remember trying to think up ways that I could modify the Neumann KWON to work with the Milab, where I'd just enlarge the openings a little bit on the KWON to accept the Milab.  I ended up leaving the Neumann KWON bar unchanged when I decided to sell the Milab mics.

[dennisrtyler]

it's called delrin

[ArchivalAudio]

what about the DPA
CXO4000
Compact XY/ORTF Stereo Holder


would the caps on the VM-44 links fit?
It's kinda funky looking

[stevetoney]

would the caps on the VM-44 links fit?
It's kinda funky looking

Maybe OFOTD can chime in because I think he just bought this mount (although I don't think he's ever owned the Milab).

I can't say for sure about them fitting, but if I were to wager, I'd give it pretty low odds that it would work very well with the Milab mics.

Not sure if you fully understand what's being shown in the picture because I have to admit...even after owning the DPA mics for a couple months, I couldn't figure out from the picture how that mount worked...I finally just studied the picture long enough that it hit me. 

See, the DPA mics have a slot that circles the outside of the body of the mic capsule.  That slot sits kinda towards the back of the capsule, close to where the cable enters the body on the side cable 4021s for example, but the slot exists on all of the DPA mini capsule series. 

On both ends of this mount that you've pictured is a semi-circlular 180degree part that mates up with that slot on the DPA mic.  On the end of each of these is a band made of rubber that hooks onto the ends of the mount.  That band stretches around the mic capsule and hooks on the other side of the mount to hold the capsule firmly in place on the end of the mount.

For X-Y, there is another set of these same semi-circular openings near the base of the 'Y' on the mount (you really can't see them in the picture, but you can see the band)  One has the opening facing upward on the top of the mount in the picture, and the other is open facing downward in the picture.  In this way, when the capsules are held in place by the bands, they are offset from each other in the mount.

The key design feature for this mount is the fact that the mics have the slot built into them...and that 180 degree part on the mount mates nice and snugly into that slot...with the bands holding the capsule in place.

Since I think that the Milab mics don't have the slot, nor am I sure that the diameter of the Milab capsules would mate up well with the Inside Diameter (ID) of the 180 part of the mount, I kinda doubt there's much chance that this would work with the Milab.

Having said that, you MIGHT have some luck with that other DPA mount...the one that looks kinda like a Schoeps A20 mount because that inside part is all stretchy rubber.  The problem with that mount though is that you can't get a windscreen around the mic capsules. 

Of course, you really can't get a screen on the capsules with the mount shown in the picture either!

It's always something!

[ArchivalAudio]

ahhhh
well I was really looking for more of a bar

which is what I would like to DIY

but this mount looks interesting

thanx
a more structured reply later
:tunes:

[Teen Wolf Blitzer]

Hey Ian.  Just come over.  I have a din, dina, nos and a custom ortf  kwon bar.  You can play with them up close.

[ArchivalAudio]

Hey Ian.  Just come over.  I have a din, dina, nos and a custom ortf  kwon bar.  You can play with them up close.

Mark,
wow
that would be great!
maybe I'll wait til I get the Milab VM-44 links
but I bet that would help out...

[jerryfreak]

homemade 'universal' ortf bar made out of 2 sg20 clamps that can do any angle (and any spacing if you swap out the spacer in the middle)

http://flickr.com/photos/10466474@N04/2312236166/

[ArchivalAudio]

homemade 'universal' ortf bar made out of 2 sg20 clamps that can do any angle (and any spacing if you swap out the spacer in the middle)

http://flickr.com/photos/10466474@N04/2312236166/

very cool!
what did  you use for the spacer?
or what did you make it out of?
peace
--Ian

[krsb]

Not ORTF...but the other day I improvised a lowprofile Milab solution, basically the two milab mounts joined together. Not sure what pattern it makes, but for a one-shot-two-minute solution it wasn't bad. A starting point...any suggestions welcome. Slightly wider version could be made with the other spacer above.

cb

Hey Ian.  Just come over.  I have a din, dina, nos and a custom ortf  kwon bar.  You can play with them up close.

Mark,
wow
that would be great!
maybe I'll wait til I get the Milab VM-44 links
but I bet that would help out...

[stevetoney]

^^ Nice...

Looks like about 9cm or so. 

As far as suggestions, I'd try to do everything possible to get the mics a bit wider with a longer spacer.  I know I'm not telling you anything new, but DIN, DINa, and ORTF are so popular because the sound delay between the two mics is about the same as the sound delay between our two ears.  The closer you get to that spacing, the sweeter/more natural your recording will sound IMHO. 

You should be able to use some sort of double clamp solution (first clamp on the stand, second clamp on the spacer bar) to attach this to a mic stand.

[krsb]

^^ Nice...

Looks like about 9cm or so. 

As far as suggestions, I'd try to do everything possible to get the mics a bit wider with a longer spacer.  I know I'm not telling you anything new, but DIN, DINa, and ORTF are so popular because the sound delay between the two mics is about the same as the sound delay between our two ears.  The closer you get to that spacing, the sweeter/more natural your recording will sound IMHO. 

You should be able to use some sort of double clamp solution (first clamp on the stand, second clamp on the spacer bar) to attach this to a mic stand.

Good advice,

I think I could get that if I swing them out the other way, like this...but alas, it won't fit in my current canadian setup like this.



cb

[ArchivalAudio]

krsb
thanx for your pics

It gave me another idea

when my VM-44 links arrive
I'll Try it out

it involves
a small section of 1/2 PVC pipe and the mounts with a 1/4 20 threaded rod running thru it

or

possibly
taking the screwed in wire  holders out and using the PVC  drilled to accommodate the  wire holders

either way it works out
I can run it in  one of my shock mounts
and have an adjustable ORTF  to DINa bar
for a sweet low profile option
cool!

[stevetoney]

krsb
thanx for your pics

It gave me another idea

when my VM-44 links arrive
I'll Try it out

it involves
a small section of 1/2 PVC pipe and the mounts with a 1/4 20 threaded rod running thru it

or

possibly
taking the screwed in wire  holders out and using the PVC  drilled to accommodate the  wire holders

either way it works out
I can run it in  one of my shock mounts
and have an adjustable ORTF  to DINa bar
for a sweet low profile option
cool!

As you hint above, there is a size of PVC available at your local hardware store (Lowes, Home Depot, etc) where the OD of the pipe exactly mates up perfectly with the size of the A20, Busman, and Joe Meek mounts.  IMHO, that and some creative use of epoxy makes an attractive and compact DIY option a very conceivable possibility for almost any active mic design.

[jerryfreak]

3/4" (or maybe metric 20mm?) pvc rod. ive got 3 feet in my garage if you can 'b and p' me an sase mailer

drilled and tapped 3/8 holes and put studs in there

at ortf spacing, the enlarged flange at the bottom of the sg20 is just a hair over 20mm an needs t be polished with a dremel to clear the a20s center clip

homemade 'universal' ortf bar made out of 2 sg20 clamps that can do any angle (and any spacing if you swap out the spacer in the middle)

http://flickr.com/photos/10466474@N04/2312236166/

very cool!
what did  you use for the spacer?
or what did you make it out of?
peace
--Ian

[ArchivalAudio]

oh PVC Rod....
I read this many time and some how I missed the ROD

interesting...
Thant could be better than the PVC pipe Idea

a B&P could work
but
were did you find such a thing
is it expensive?


I think with the Milab VM-44 Links
and their own wire capsule holder, that I may be able to unscrew the wires from the bottom
and use a similar screw and collar set up to mount the wires in the PVC pipe...
but
I am still awaiting the arrival, so I can actually test my theory

here's what the mount/clip looks like


peaceful holidays

happy solstice!
--  Ian

[jerryfreak]

mcmaster-carr

oh PVC Rod....
I read this many time and some how I missed the ROD

interesting...
Thant could be better than the PVC pipe Idea

a B&P could work
but
were did you find such a thing
is it expensive?

[Todd R]

Well you guys are getting me motivated to try some more diy work on a mounting bar.

I'm not by my stuff or a camera, but I have a few solutions.  First is I bought some 1" wide flat aluminum stock from Home Depot and made something like a diy vark bar or mark bar.  Cut the stock to 6" or so, and drilled holes in the center and pairs an inch or so out from the center and ~3" out from the center.  Got 3/8" threaded rod, wing nuts, and then used the 3/8" to 5/8"-27 adapters I have to allow the mics to me mounted in either set of holes.  Using the center hole, I screwed on a short length of 3/4" wooden dowel rod (inch or two).  The whole mount can slide into an a20s or a Joe Meek style shock using this 3/4" dowel.  The outer holes were made at a distance so that the Milab mics put into the milab mounts makes for a 20cm DIN spacing.  Using the inner holes and the milab mounts, together with a Rapido quick-release mic mount as a riser, I can run the Milabs XY.

The other mounts I have were much easier.  I got an Atlas Sound 3" long 5/8"-27 extension and a 6" extension.  I wrapped both with enough gaffer tape that their diameter was more like 3/4" and they'd fit in my a20s.  The 3" extension with the milab mounts yields something like DIN (21cm spacing vs the 20cm spacing called for by DIN).  The 6" bar together with my Rapido quick-release mount and the Milab mic mounts yields a 30cm spacing for NOS.

That said, I'm going to look into making a DIN and NOS bar using some PVC (either bar or pipe).

I'll try to get pics up of the other diy mounting when I get a chance.

[F.O.Bean]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

[audBall]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

What I generally do is take fine grit sandpaper to the shiny PVC.  It gives it a 'matte' texture and allows paint/marker to stick easier without going the primer route.  It also reduces light reflection off the bar and helps things blend in a bit in low light situations. 

[F.O.Bean]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

What I generally do is take fine grit sandpaper to the shiny PVC.  It gives it a 'matte' texture and allows paint/marker to stick easier without going the primer route.  It also reduces light reflection off the bar and helps things blend in a bit in low light situations. 

Thats also a great idea. I would def recommend doing that first!!! But being a painter for over 5+ years, I use primer religiously ESPECIALLY on plastics!!! And if you DO NOT use that Fusion plastic spray paint, its not going to be nearly as durable IMO!!

[ArchivalAudio]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

Bean
thanx
do you have any experience with using any kind of dye to dye PVC?
or could you (or others) recommend any?
that way it will bond or soak into the plastic and not chip off

Peace
-- Ian

[F.O.Bean]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

Bean
thanx
do you have any experience with using any kind of dye to dye PVC?
or could you (or others) recommend any?
that way it will bond or soak into the plastic and not chip off

Peace
-- Ian

nope, sorry bud. I just know that primer+FUSION plastic spray paint will bond pretty damn good. just make sure you get plastic specific primer AND spraypaint. Get spraypaint for BOTH TYPES

[ArchivalAudio]

And if you DO use PVC/Plastic piping, USE SOME PLASTIC PRIMER BEFORE YOU SPRAY PAINT THEM BLACK, and then you need the FUSION PLASTIC SPRAY PAINT, or they WILL CHIP/FLAKE OFF very quickly

Bean
thanx
do you have any experience with using any kind of dye to dye PVC?
or could you (or others) recommend any?
that way it will bond or soak into the plastic and not chip off

Peace
-- Ian

nope, sorry bud. I just know that primer+FUSION plastic spray paint will bond pretty damn good. just make sure you get plastic specific primer AND spraypaint. Get spraypaint for BOTH TYPES

thanx
Bean
I have some Rustoleum Plastic spray paint - it states no primer needed
I know with my semi limited painting experience- primer is almost always needed

appreciate you input
-- Ian