Topic: Upgrade from AT853? Stealth only

[edtyre]

I was at the same crossroads a couple of years ago when
running at853rx>ps2>minidisc. When i was in the sweet spot this
rig made excellent tapes, just not killer ones. I was happy for a long time.

The problem is...... there is no in-betweener card for stealth. Stick with the AT's
until you get 4023's or mk-4/ccm4  just be careful about your location 

[su6oxone]

The problem is...... there is no in-betweener card for stealth. Stick with the AT's
until you get 4023's or mk-4/ccm4  just be careful about your location 

QFT.  That's good advice. 

[sunjan]

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite. 

Talking about Shure, I noticed that there are a few stealthy cardioids that theoretically are suited for taping. But I guess they aren't popular because they're overpriced?
MX202B/C - street price: $160 ea.
MX185 (or MX184 for supercard)  - street price: $170 ea.
MC51B - street price: $300 ea.

I noticed the cheaper of the Shure cards only offer 50-17,000Hz, and the response isn't very flat. I guess they're mainly for voice recording.

Regarding Audix, there are a few different models in the M12xx range, not just 1280/1290. I was reading the specs, but I couldn't make out the differences. Same size, response, range. Only differences are shielding and max SPL?
http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/the_micros.shtml
What about M125x/M124x, would any of them work in a concert setting?

Another cardiod that was mentioned recently is Line Audio CM3. Don't know if they're considered stealthy, the dimensions are 77 x 20mm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/linemicdata.htm

Retailing at $115 ea, they seem like good value to me, if you can mount them safely and get away with it?!

Thinking about it, Franken-naks (chopped) are about the same size as Line Audio CM3 and should probably qualify here too, even though they're only found used.

Acidjack, I like your grading...    Don't know if you can fit in all these models in your ranking system?

[acidjack]

No, MKE40 are a clear upgrade from AT853.  Of the miniature cardioids (AT853, Shure MX184, Church Audio), these are my favourite. 

Talking about Shure, I noticed that there are a few stealthy cardioids that theoretically are suited for taping. But I guess they aren't popular because they're overpriced?
MX202B/C - street price: $160 ea.
MX185 (or MX184 for supercard)  - street price: $170 ea.
MC51B - street price: $300 ea.

I noticed the cheaper of the Shure cards only offer 50-17,000Hz, and the response isn't very flat. I guess they're mainly for voice recording.

Regarding Audix, there are a few different models in the M12xx range, not just 1280/1290. I was reading the specs, but I couldn't make out the differences. Same size, response, range. Only differences are shielding and max SPL?
http://www.audixusa.com/docs/products/the_micros.shtml
What about M125x/M124x, would any of them work in a concert setting?

Another cardiod that was mentioned recently is Line Audio CM3. Don't know if they're considered stealthy, the dimensions are 77 x 20mm:
http://www.lineaudio.se/linemicdata.htm

Retailing at $115 ea, they seem like good value to me, if you can mount them safely and get away with it?!

Thinking about it, Franken-naks (chopped) are about the same size as Line Audio CM3 and should probably qualify here too, even though they're only found used.

Acidjack, I like your grading...    Don't know if you can fit in all these models in your ranking system?

Ha, I probably could if I'd even heard half of the ones you just listed     Those Shure MC51B are interesting. 

After listening to some Audix recordings on the LMA, I am at least somewhat convinced these could be a real interim upgrade from the AT's.  Based on what I've heard of the HLSC's, I can see what some people prefer about them, but personally, based on what I have heard, I wouldn't trade my AT's for those, regardless of price.  Of course, it is hard to base any judgment on what's in the LMA, too, as that isn't controlled for venue or placement.  But the 'optimal' sounding Audix tape on there that I believe is stealth or non-stand (the Gomez recording) is to my ears better than what I get out of the AT's, with a fuller low-end and more detail.  There are also some awful recordings with the Audix, which I'd attribute to venue as much as anything else, as they sound very distant.

So it still seems that basically, there is the $3000 range of Schoeps/DPA 4021, then the ~$700 Audix 1290/1280 (plus either a power supply or a phantom-powered deck), then CA 14/AT 853 then everything else that is cheaper than those two. 

[aaronji]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html

I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

So it still seems that basically, there is the $3000 range of Schoeps/DPA 4021, then the ~$700 Audix 1290/1280 (plus either a power supply or a phantom-powered deck), then CA 14/AT 853 then everything else that is cheaper than those two. 

I really love the sound of those DPA compacts, but the tax is pretty steep, huh?  I started a "DPA Fund", but I keep dipping into it for concert tickets and other necessities...Not to mention how hard it is to convince the significant other that ANY mics are worth three grand!

[yousef]

I feel the MKE40 sound better than the AT853 or CA11.  They don't have as much bass response, and you do need to apply the 4.7k mod (and they are more expensive), but they sound clearer and more detailed to me.

Interesting. I'm fairly committed to omnis but have been experimenting with cards recently.

I have both and prefer the AT853 to the MKE40. I find the 853s have a sort of glossy, very polished quality to the sound, while the MKE40s tend to sound more raw. Not great descriptions, I know, but it's the best I can describe them.

There's definitely not much in it, but I'd be wary of regarding either as a clear upgrade over the other as I suspect most of the differences would come down to personal preference rather than 'quality' per se. I must say, though, that I've heard a lot said about the MKE40's apparently limited bass response but have had no problems with it myself. In fact, I can recall one recording that actually required a fairly hefty bass cut. I'm not going to argue with a spectral analysis but I definitely wouldn't be swayed against them on that count.

It could just be my imagination but I always get the feeling that the MKE40s are noticeably less directional than the 853s. I've not tried any sort of proper comparison but this is certainly my impression.

In terms of practicalities, I find the AT853s are a bit more streamlined and compact, which may be an issue depending on how and where you intend to use them.

In any case, I'm holding on to both for the moment and will jettison one after a few more shows.

[eman]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

Having recently obtained the AT853's and experiencing great success I am glad to see that I made a fairly wise choice, at least for the money.

[aaronji]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

D'oh!  There goes that foolproof method!  Please:  keep stealth stealth...(j/k, of course)

[acidjack]

Here is the answer to you.
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,105713.0/all.html
I tape stealth 100%.  Yes it is bulkier and heavier but it is really worth.
I would rather go for the incontinent set-up for the better sound than an easy set-up for the less impressive sound.
Koichi

Here's to hoping that's a typo!!!

I assumed he meant that you had so much gear in your pants it made you pee. Anyone use Depends for stealthing?

D'oh!  There goes that foolproof method!  Please:  keep stealth stealth...(j/k, of course)

or are you kidding? I had always wondered about this unpleasant-sounding method.... 

[aaronji]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

[acidjack]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

I think I read somewhere in Clinton Heylin's book "Bootleg" (which is mostly about people selling unauthorized recordings for profit, rather than the actual act of taping live shows) that some of the guys back in the 70s would do this.  Of course, their gear was a lot bigger. 

If you had to take a piss, I guess you wouldn't miss any of the show this way, too....

[taperwheeler]

Yes, I was just kidding (= j/k).  But the more I think about it, the more this seems like an airtight method of getting your gear in the door!  How many security guys do you think would be willing to thoroughly examine the lump in your diaper...

I think I read somewhere in Clinton Heylin's book "Bootleg" (which is mostly about people selling unauthorized recordings for profit, rather than the actual act of taping live shows) that some of the guys back in the 70s would do this.  Of course, their gear was a lot bigger. 

If you had to take a piss, I guess you wouldn't miss any of the show this way, too....

Yeah but you'd short out your gear and run the risk of nard shocking...

[Dede2002]

I have used the AT853's(4.7k mod), the MM-HLSC's(4.7k mod) , DPA4061's, MK4's>nbox, 4021's and i was getting such good results from the HLSC's i have basically thinned my gear back down to them and some church cards for backup and i will have to also strongly agree Location is by far the most important factor in a good pull, hell i even got a very good pull out of those shitty giant squid omnis once but only because i was in the absolute sweet spot, which brings up another point, the 4061' are omnis and i found I get by far more good and consistant recordings from cards in more situations, the dpa's were hit and miss depending on location and venue.

Those HLSC are Sennheiser MKE40, right?  I think those are an excellent option, as long as you don't rely on the bass. 

Richard, Darktrain: how do the MM-HLSC's stand up against CA-14? You're saying that they perform better under certain conditions? I see them retailing for $250, are they worth the extra cash compared to Church gear?

I'm very pleased with my HLSC-1. Mine does not have any mods though. Not strong bass, but detailed and pleasant to hear to.
But under the  the right conditions, I love my HLSO Micro omnis ( also Sennheiser based). But I'm an omni fan. Anyway, I'd like to add something to the "location-location-location" mantra for stealth: house sound.
I think it's always good to remember: a nice recording always starts with a nice source.
You can get the best location ever and end up with a crappy recording if the mix is not OK.
Take care, my friends 

[nameloc01]

^ also could have the best mix ever..and pull a schwank recording if you're in a bad location.

Location is absolutely paramount.

[taperwheeler]

^ also could have the best mix ever..and pull a schwank recording if you're in a bad location.

Location is absolutely paramount.

Kinda a marriage of sorts.  Without properly dialed in house sound, there is no sweet spot.