Topic: DPA 4060 ebay ex-theatre mics very noisy - are they fried?

[dogmusic]

I bought a pair of ex-theatre DPA 4060's off ebay. I did read the warnings on this forum beforehand, as well as reports from some satisfied buyers, and decided to take a chance.

They came with no connectors, and although I'm a rank amateur with a soldering iron, I managed to get a 3.5 mm stereo plug on the end and test them out.

My SONY M10 didn't seem to have enough juice using plug-in power, while plugging the mics into an SP-SPSB-8 battery box and going line-in wasn't a whole lot louder. Going mic-in (no PIP) with the batt box was louder still but sounded noisier on one channel and also had some distortion.

I then went mic-in to a SONY D50 using plug-in power and got very good level. However, the mics seem exceptionally noisy. Although there is no distortion and it's a good recording, there seems to me to be an awful lot of hiss.

Here's a sample recording of some percussion sounds about 24" from the mics. [DPA 4060'S > SONY D50, mic-in PIP, record level 5.0]

http://www.box.net/shared/7tvtagxsm9hsfsu6329e

Could this be the result of a lousy soldering job? Or are these mics burned out?  Or is this typical of DPA's?

Or do I need to clean them as I have seen suggested here? If cleaning is the answer, could someone who has done that to a pair of DPA 4060's please lay out the procedure for me? I'd hate to make matters worse!

Also, is the plug-in power of the D50 rated higher than the M10? Has anyone had success with DPA's going mic-in PIP to the M10?

Any advice will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Phillip

[dogmusic]

The amplitude and spectrum of the noise signal from the two mics is practically identical--that's a sign the mics aren't toasted because they would not be likely to fail in exactly the same manner.  It's not a bad solder job, that's a work/doesn't work/works intermittently issue.  That leaves either something incompatible with connected equipment (insufficient power, excessive load, improper gain staging, etc.) or that's just the way they are.

I don't know how loud your percussion was at the capsule so I can't speculate on the indicated self-noise of the mics.

Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm surprised that the plug-in power of the D50 worked better than the battery box > M10. And I have a pair of AT853's that I use with that same battery box, line-in to the M10, and get much more volume and less noise. Do the DPA's need more power than the AT's?

The percussion was not very loud. Is there a better way of doing this test?

[Church-Audio]

If you look at the common connection between these two mics you have three things to consider.

1 Bad ground from the sheild to the 3.5 mm stereo jacks
2 Bad or weak battery. Low bias supply usually results in highly distorted audio but can also lead to noise.
3 Bad mics

Its possible to have two bad mics especially if they come from a theater. I have said this time and time again as a live sound engineer I know what I am talking about. NO THEATER sells perfectly good working DPA microphones unless they are :

A Closing down
B something is wrong with that mic so they want to get rid of it.

Now if you dont have another perfectly working DPA to compare it to you might now notice a lack of top end. Because you dont have a valid reference point. But when you do like I do with my DPA 4007 Or my THE measurement mics. Then you begin to see the effects of a sweated out mic. And believe me before any mic gets sold they try all the tricks they know to get it back to proper fuction. So yes you can have two bad mics one of the major symptoms of a bad DPA 4060 OR 61 Is noise.

[dogmusic]

If you look at the common connection between these two mics you have three things to consider.

1 Bad ground from the sheild to the 3.5 mm stereo jacks
2 Bad or weak battery. Low bias supply usually results in highly distorted audio but can also lead to noise.
3 Bad mics

Its possible to have two bad mics especially if they come from a theater. I have said this time and time again as a live sound engineer I know what I am talking about. NO THEATER sells perfectly good working DPA microphones unless they are :

A Closing down
B something is wrong with that mic so they want to get rid of it.

Now if you dont have another perfectly working DPA to compare it to you might now notice a lack of top end. Because you dont have a valid reference point. But when you do like I do with my DPA 4007 Or my THE measurement mics. Then you begin to see the effects of a sweated out mic. And believe me before any mic gets sold they try all the tricks they know to get it back to proper fuction. So yes you can have two bad mics one of the major symptoms of a bad DPA 4060 OR 61 Is noise.

And yet there are some people on this forum who have had good experiences buying these theatre DPA's.

[Church-Audio]

If you look at the common connection between these two mics you have three things to consider.

1 Bad ground from the sheild to the 3.5 mm stereo jacks
2 Bad or weak battery. Low bias supply usually results in highly distorted audio but can also lead to noise.
3 Bad mics

Its possible to have two bad mics especially if they come from a theater. I have said this time and time again as a live sound engineer I know what I am talking about. NO THEATER sells perfectly good working DPA microphones unless they are :

A Closing down
B something is wrong with that mic so they want to get rid of it.

Now if you dont have another perfectly working DPA to compare it to you might now notice a lack of top end. Because you dont have a valid reference point. But when you do like I do with my DPA 4007 Or my THE measurement mics. Then you begin to see the effects of a sweated out mic. And believe me before any mic gets sold they try all the tricks they know to get it back to proper fuction. So yes you can have two bad mics one of the major symptoms of a bad DPA 4060 OR 61 Is noise.

And yet there are some people on this forum who have had good experiences buying these theatre DPA's.

Yeah because some of the guys working in theaters are MORONS. And they think somethings wrong with the mics they are unloading so they dont care. Or there are issues with the mics its just that nobody can hear the difference because like I said if you dont have a properly functioning DPA to compare it to it would be difficult to hear issues. But that does not mean they are not there. Any way you slice it, its a gamble.

I dont think a rational person sells a $500 + mic for $100 in this economy unless there is something wrong with it or they are desperate for cash.....

[yousef]

I think that sometimes the cosmetic condition of the mics influences how the theatres think of them - mine looked rough - covered in dried glue, traces of make-up etc but all the key parts were in good condition and after a clean with distilled water worked perfectly for 5 years.

One of them has just become about 5dB less sensitive than the other and so has had another dip in the distilled water - even if that doesn't bring it back to spec I reckon I got my money's worth for the service they've given me.

But how you would tell the difference between a good and bad mic before pulling the trigger on Ebay, I don't know.

[dogmusic]

I think that sometimes the cosmetic condition of the mics influences how the theatres think of them - mine looked rough - covered in dried glue, traces of make-up etc but all the key parts were in good condition and after a clean with distilled water worked perfectly for 5 years.

One of them has just become about 5dB less sensitive than the other and so has had another dip in the distilled water - even if that doesn't bring it back to spec I reckon I got my money's worth for the service they've given me.

But how you would tell the difference between a good and bad mic before pulling the trigger on Ebay, I don't know.

Can you please describe the steps in cleaning these mics? Do the mesh metal screens have to be removed? How much time did they spend in the distilled water? How do you dry them?

[Church-Audio]

I think that sometimes the cosmetic condition of the mics influences how the theatres think of them - mine looked rough - covered in dried glue, traces of make-up etc but all the key parts were in good condition and after a clean with distilled water worked perfectly for 5 years.

One of them has just become about 5dB less sensitive than the other and so has had another dip in the distilled water - even if that doesn't bring it back to spec I reckon I got my money's worth for the service they've given me.

But how you would tell the difference between a good and bad mic before pulling the trigger on Ebay, I don't know.

Again nobody gets rid of perfectly good working mics. NOBODY and cosmetic does not factor into it at all. Why because these mics are always hidden on a performer where you cant see them like in the wig on top of the head ect. Distilled water works well with 100% isoprophanol. Again you dont have a good working DPA 4060 to compare it too so you would not know if they were working correctly no offence.

[yousef]

Contradicting yourself a bit there, Chris. I was suggesting that the "morons" you spoke of earlier might think that the cosmetic condition of the mics reflects their functionality and hence influences the decision to dump them.

You're right, I don't have another set of mics to compare mine with side-by-side (although how you knew this, I don't know  ) but I've heard an awful lot of DPA4060/4061 recordings and I can't say that I can discern an obvious qualitative difference between my results and those with, say, Coresound HEBs. And certainly not a difference enough to tempt me into the extra spend.

[adrianf74]

My $0.02 here: I have a pair of ex-theatre mics.  I used them at a Casino show this past Friday without issue and it's probably one of the best pulls I've ever made (save for the three wooks behind me during the first four songs).  Period. 

My 4061's were sold to me by a very well-respected veteran on this board who got the pair in a gear trade and was trying to help me out in my search for a "reasonable priced" pair; besides, he already had a pair of DSM-6's and didn't see the need for both.  The original person who had them bought them, cleaned them, and then re-terminated them at 1/8" and never really liked the way they sounded so he traded them off.  This person is also well-versed in their opinions of DPA mics and how they prefer a couple of other brands mics to these.

But back to the point, Chris.  Not all mics that have been bought off FleaBay (from wherever) are toast.  Many people on this board have bought their mics off FleaBay without incident; CheeseCadet is among them, IIRC, and has made some killer recordings (his Howie Day recording from September was pretty incredible if you ask me).  The issue many of us come across (myself included) is that the mics are NOT MATCHED (a la CoreSound's HEBs) but does this mean that it's better to buy those at 2, 3 or 4x the price?  Likely not.  In my case, I have a 2dB difference between the left and right channels (which I can either fix in post or buy an Ugly preamp to resolve -- if you ever get back to me that is).  The mics on FleaBay sometimes have a problem with the connector on them which can be resolved by re-termination but, more often than not, the theatre is just cycling stock to ensure that they don't have the mic totally f-up on them when in use.  Let's be honest, they don't have to run them totally into the ground with the prices of tickets; cycling gear is just a cost of business.  Several people on here have also put me in touch with a few reputable sellers of said mics on FleaBay but none of them had black mics (which was what I was looking for).

That said, Chris, you're making a very blanket statement and one-size does not fit all in this case.  It sounds like the OP might have gotten some bum mics but it's hard to know for sure unless somebody who's qualified to make such a statement can look at them first and then say as much.

[fmaderjr]

The issue many of us come across (myself included) is that the mics are NOT MATCHED (a la CoreSound's HEBs) but does this mean that it's better to buy those at 2, 3 or 4x the price?  Likely not.  In my case, I have a 2dB difference between the left and right channels (which I can either fix in post or buy an Ugly preamp to resolve.   

For me & I assume for you, mics that are mismatched by a few dB is really no issue at all. As you say, it is super easy to fix in post or, if I am using a pre with L/R gain knobs like my Littlebox or MixPre, I can match the channels that way.

I had good luck with theater DPA as well, but I got them from a seller with great feedback on DPA sales who bought a lot of them and tested them before reselling. 

I wouldn't buy anything from Core Sound (nor would I have bought DPA 4060's at all if I had to pay $900-$1000 new). Many reports of substandard customer service From Core Sound and I experienced this myself the one time I ordered from him. My $35 cable never arrived and it was like pulling teeth to get him to ship another one. He practically accused my of trying to cheat him.

[adrianf74]

The issue many of us come across (myself included) is that the mics are NOT MATCHED (a la CoreSound's HEBs) but does this mean that it's better to buy those at 2, 3 or 4x the price?  Likely not.  In my case, I have a 2dB difference between the left and right channels (which I can either fix in post or buy an Ugly preamp to resolve.   

For me & I assume for you, mics that are mismatched by a few dB is really no issue at all. As you say, it is super easy to fix in post or, if I am using a pre with L/R gain knobs like my Littlebox or MixPre, I can match the channels that way.

I had good luck with theater DPA as well, but I got them from a seller with great feedback on DPA sales who bought a lot of them and tested them before reselling. 

I wouldn't buy anything from Core Sound (nor would I have bought DPA 4060's at all if I had to pay $900-$1000 new). Many reports of substandard customer service From Core Sound and I experienced this myself the one time I ordered from him. My $35 cable never arrived and it was like pulling teeth to get him to ship another one. He practically accused my of trying to cheat him.

I'm not complaining about 2 or 3 dB.  Any good pair of AKG 480s will be out by 2 to 3 dB so it's more than tolerable.  I'm definitely trying to find a good sized preamp solution now because I'd rather have this sorted when recording but it can be fixed easily.

Exactly - a lot of sellers don't sell duds as they're reputable (and also have great words passed along on these forums via PMs, etc).   I'm not going to knock Len here as I've dealt with him in the past without incident and again, most recently, when I picked up the DPA's.  I purchased some windscreens and clips from him as his prices with shipping were lower than B&H (and he had stock to boot) nevermind the fact that they got here in about a week which is great since I live north of the border.  But as I said, if I had to paid 2-4x as much as I did, I wouldn't have bought the DPAs (and wouldn't have bought them through Core Sound if I bought them new).  After selling my CA-14 omnis and CAFS omnis, I didn't have to pay too much more to cover the cost of the mics, the windscreens, and clips so that's the other reason I made the jump.

[dogmusic]

Thanks for all your input. This forum is great!

I did some more tests, plugging the DPA's into my SP-SPSB-8 battery box and into the mic-in of the D50 (no PIP). The level got better and the noise disappeared from one channel.

I thought perhaps it was my poor soldering skills that were at fault, and I re-did the connectors with RCA plugs, and then into an RCA-to-3.5mm stereo adapter.

Being able to run one mic at a time allowed me to narrow down the problem to one particular mic, and that is where my problem remains.

Below is a sample recording: DPA 4060's > RCA adapter > SP-SPSB-8 batt box > D50 mic-in, no PIP, rec level 4.0.

http://www.box.net/shared/is8omc9390j1ng2sxq5e

The DPA's were put under separate pillows. The bad mic is on the left.

I kept the record level at what I have read here to be unity gain so hopefully no noise was added by the recorder.

I normalized the file in Audacity. Not sure if that was a good idea. It's REALLY LOUD!

So please TURN DOWN YOUR PLAYBACK VOLUME if you decide to listen to it.

Looks like I'll be returning this one, unless someone has another idea about this bad mic.

Thanks again,

Phillip

[Jamos]

A lot of theatres/broadway houses consider body mics to be expendable items.  They get sweat on, covered in makeup, stepped on, etc.

Luckily for folks like us, they often get sold off cheap just to make some money back and are still usable.

Chris Church, you sound pretty full of yourself making comments like the one you did, but I think that's pretty obvious to most.

I hope the OP gets his mics sorted out.

[Church-Audio]

A lot of theatres/broadway houses consider body mics to be expendable items.  They get sweat on, covered in makeup, stepped on, etc.

Luckily for folks like us, they often get sold off cheap just to make some money back and are still usable.

Chris Church, you sound pretty full of yourself making comments like the one you did, but I think that's pretty obvious to most.

I hope the OP gets his mics sorted out.

Full of my self no. Experienced yes. I have been working in live sound for over 23 years now and I dont know anyone that sells a perfectly good working mic for 1/4 of its value. Unless there is an issue. Yeah body mics are expendable sure, but nobody sells off mics that work perfectly. At least nobody I have ever met. Maybe you know people that do, I dont know. I bought a Meyer Sim DPA mic from you if you remember, even then I still took it to DPA and had it tested. I would never have purchased one from a theater because I know better. And my whole point is unless you have a good known mic to compare it too and the gear to test it properly then you don't know if it works like it should. You may know it sounds ok but that does not mean its working like new. I think we can agree on that right?

That is my point. No ego here I don't care what people do a the end of the day people will always buy theater mics. And maybe they are ok maybe not, Its a gamble. I did not mean to ruffle any feathers. I just think people have a false sense of security thinking that these mics will always be perfectly functional often times they are not. Now what some consider functional and what I consider functional might be two different things right?