Author Topic: the very best mics? (Read 11718 times)

jnorman34 · « **on:** April 24, 2004, 07:31:24 PM »

okaly dokely boys and grils - i have been through three pairs of neumann km184s, schoeps cmc64s, DPA 4061s, gefell m300s, rode nt5s, akg c391b's, akg c480/ck61s, royer r-121s, neumann tlm103s, rode NTKs, SP C1s, AT4051s, And a slew of others. about the only other mics i have been interested in have been the DPA 4011s, neumann km84s, sennheiser mkh40s, and maybe gefell m295s, but everytime i start to zero in on a pair of those, i read commentsd from people who have owned them and sold them for various reasons. a friend who had 4011s just sold them to get some old tube schoeps. km84s usually get nice comments, but many people say they would choose the km140 over the km84, and since the 140 sounds pretty much just like the km184, it makes me waffle about both the km140 and the km84. lots of folks like the senn mkh series, but often complain about tubby low mids or blah blah. i dont do venue rock - i do chamber music both in the studio and small halls, so i am generally looking for very flat freq response curve. anyway, what is your vote for the very best pair of mics that are out there?

jpschust · « **Reply #1 on:** April 24, 2004, 07:47:45 PM »

you are mixing up your mics. the 184 and the 140 are close in sound, the kmi84 is a different mic. the i84 sounds significantly better than both of those. also what about the dpa 4022s? The response curve is about as flat as you get.

Tim · « **Reply #2 on:** April 24, 2004, 08:14:43 PM »

I don't see any u89s, try some u89s or for cleaner LD sound go with the tlm170.

Have you tried the DPA 402x series as Jonny mentioned?

jpschust · « **Reply #3 on:** April 24, 2004, 08:51:17 PM »

the problem with the 170s, while a fav of mine, dont have the flattest response curve in the world.

carlbeck · « **Reply #4 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:18:49 PM »

Good freaking luck & welcome to my world

I do tape rock shows & have run through the gamut of mics, pre-amps & convertors. There is NO single set of mics that will rule every time. I was running two pairs of mic's for a while just in case & even that wasn't good enough. Just find something you like & stick with it, it's not worth it the other way IMO. The 4022's are as flat as it get's but I just sold mine so there you go, not for me.

BCostigan · « **Reply #5 on:** April 24, 2004, 10:41:56 PM »

I'd second the u89s or other LD Neumanns.

Lee · « **Reply #6 on:** April 24, 2004, 11:28:18 PM »

c12- end of story

MattD · « **Reply #7 on:** April 25, 2004, 12:35:03 AM »

For chamber music, I can't see anything "beating" the DPA 4011/402x. Odds are that you'll often be set up in an ideal spot in an execllent-sounding room and to my ears, there is nothing that captures that sound better.

sideshowbob · « **Reply #8 on:** April 25, 2004, 02:47:24 AM »

http://www.taperssection.com/yabbse/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=17491

muj · « **Reply #9 on:** April 25, 2004, 03:48:28 AM »

Quote from: jnorman34 on April 24, 2004, 07:31:24 PM

okaly dokely boys and grils - i have been through three pairs of neumann km184s, schoeps cmc64s, DPA 4061s, gefell m300s, rode nt5s, akg c391b's, akg c480/ck61s, royer r-121s, neumann tlm103s, rode NTKs, SP C1s, AT4051s, And a slew of others. about the only other mics i have been interested in have been the DPA 4011s, neumann km84s, sennheiser mkh40s, and maybe gefell m295s, but everytime i start to zero in on a pair of those, i read commentsd from people who have owned them and sold them for various reasons. a friend who had 4011s just sold them to get some old tube schoeps. km84s usually get nice comments, but many people say they would choose the km140 over the km84, and since the 140 sounds pretty much just like the km184, it makes me waffle about both the km140 and the km84. lots of folks like the senn mkh series, but often complain about tubby low mids or blah blah. i dont do venue rock - i do chamber music both in the studio and small halls, so i am generally looking for very flat freq response curve. anyway, what is your vote for the very best pair of mics that are out there?

get a pair of akg 461/462 used,and have tony merril work on them,
total costs would be around 600-800 for the mics,and 1000-1200 for the spa rebuild.

Simp-Dawg · « **Reply #10 on:** April 25, 2004, 06:47:29 AM »

st-250

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #11 on:** April 25, 2004, 07:12:35 AM »

ADK's??

carlbeck · « **Reply #12 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:07:24 AM »

A Soundfield would be killer for his recording, I think that's the best one yet for his application.

AT853rxwh · « **Reply #13 on:** April 25, 2004, 09:17:35 AM »

Aachen Head Acoustics system

Lots of audiophile quality recordings are done using it. Course it is around $29k tho...

http://www.head-acoustics.de/2s-und-v/hms/P-h30-e.htm

jpschust · « **Reply #14 on:** April 25, 2004, 11:44:18 AM »

here's the problem with the 250. i own one and its on loan to a prof who is going to buy it from me. if you arent in the most perfect of position it really sucks. for when you are in the right position its AMAZING

jnorman34 · « **Reply #15 on:** April 25, 2004, 01:20:12 PM »

moke - the 4061s do a very nice job at everything i've used them on. self noise has not been a problem at all, though i worried about that before buying them. they certainyl rank up there in terms of best mics for the money. i have used them as a spaced pair for many duos, even in really poor spaces with nice results. the omnis have a diffuse sound that is nice, though doesnt give the same precise location of each instrument like you get with cards. sometimes thats good, sometimes not. all in all, the 4061s are great - sound is fantastic and the price cant be beat. still, my favorite mics these days for most stuff are the 480s. but it is nice to have the choice of omnis when i want them.

Nick's Picks · « **Reply #16 on:** April 25, 2004, 06:37:42 PM »

Quote from: jpschust on April 25, 2004, 11:44:18 AM

here's the problem with the 250. i own one and its on loan to a prof who is going to buy it from me. if you arent in the most perfect of position it really sucks. for when you are in the right position its AMAZING

selling it out of the circle...
a tear in me eye

yea, I can see that being the plague of the Soundfield. It wasn't designed to be "setup wherever you get the opportunity", it was designed to be in "the spot", for whatever application that may be.
And so true about how it shines when in "the spot", unlike any other.
When it was in my care, I guess I never really recorded outside of the sweet spot with the exception being distance. i was always DFC with it. Even at a distance, it sounds nice...but not as nice as other mics.

I think having a pair of multi-pattern mics will leave you in the best position for anything that comes along.
two ST-250's in mono mode ORTF

BC · « **Reply #17 on:** April 25, 2004, 07:41:03 PM »

Quote from: jnorman34 on April 24, 2004, 07:31:24 PM

i am generally looking for very flat freq response curve. anyway, what is your vote for the very best pair of mics that are out there?

IMHO if you are after neutrality the DPA line is very tough to beat. I am a 4022 owner and am very happy, I can't really ever see myself getting rid of these unless DPA comes out with an extended freq. response version a la the Schoeps CMC6xt.

Some other mics that seem engineered with neutrality in mind (that are a little more affordable) are the the AKG C 480 B-ULS line and Earthworks (QTC1 looks nice!).

Good luck!
Ben

jnorman · « **Reply #18 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:20:10 PM »

btw, moke - i got a really good deal on these 4061s, but if i was buying again, i would go for the 4060s instead, just for the lower self noise issue.

kindms · « **Reply #19 on:** April 26, 2004, 06:37:08 PM »

The new line of AKG c 414's would give you a lot of options

http://www.akg.com/products/powerslave,mynodeid,186,id,781,pid,781,_language,EN.html

radioboy1977 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 26, 2004, 08:43:36 PM »

Quote from: jpschust on April 25, 2004, 11:44:18 AM

here's the problem with the 250. i own one and its on loan to a prof who is going to buy it from me. if you arent in the most perfect of position it really sucks. for when you are in the right position its AMAZING

from my experience, that's about the long and short of it. which is why i'm buying a big-ass boom arm so that even when i'm off center i can crane out to DFC

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #21 on:** April 27, 2004, 01:08:17 PM »

i can see it now jef, it will go from that back bar entrance to DCF 20' from stage;-)

w/ some long-ass 40ft boom

Sean Gallemore · « **Reply #22 on:** April 27, 2004, 01:12:11 PM »

shear stress due to bending is gonna be killer on that beam

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #23 on:** April 27, 2004, 01:27:44 PM »

Quote from: schwill on April 27, 2004, 01:12:11 PM

shear stress due to bending is gonna be killer on that beam

jef, we'll have to make an arch over the dfc area back there, put a stand on each side, and a boom meeting the 2 in the middle, DFC for our mics

be about 5 ft on each boom

utahtaper · « **Reply #24 on:** April 27, 2004, 11:07:16 PM »

Quote from: jnorman34 on April 25, 2004, 01:20:12 PM

still, my favorite mics these days for most stuff are the 480s. but it is nice to have the choice of omnis when i want them.

I have said the same thing about 480's in the past but I think the Gefells may have chaged my opinion. I just can't get over how pleasing they sound. I have yet to touch the omni caps and none of the caps are dead flat but I'm going to fluff them anyway.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #25 on:** April 28, 2004, 08:55:37 AM »

im turning into a 480/geffel kid at heart too, the geffel>v3 tapes d and i made are incrediable, but so are the 480->v3 from that same festie

jpschust · « **Reply #26 on:** April 28, 2004, 09:38:43 AM »

ok as far as accuracy goes, however, putting the 4022 against the 480, and mind you i havent done the comps, but looking at the on axis diagrams (akg doesnt publish an off axis diagram for their 480 with card cap), the 4022 has a flatter curve up until that bump around 10k. The akgs look like the run flat up till 100-200k and then get a bump somewhere in the middle of that range and run flat till about 10 and get a dropoff. the charts are on the respective companies websites.

I really wish akg would publish the off axis measurements too. thats better data to look at for our application.

F.O.Bean · « **Reply #27 on:** April 28, 2004, 09:48:03 AM »

no doubt jonny, i can hear more off axis thru the v3 more than w/ the dmic, its because of the detail

but i wonder what their off-axis is???

what is schoeps?? cause i do give that to the shepz, their off-axis is really nice

jpschust · « **Reply #28 on:** April 28, 2004, 09:51:31 AM »

you know im not sure- i know that im not a huge fan of the schoeps card caps so i didnt bother to check. it always bugs me when companies skimp on their documentation though (yes this means you AT, AKG, and sometimes Neumann).

carlbeck · « **Reply #29 on:** April 28, 2004, 08:26:02 PM »

no need to throw stones at AKG, they will smoke most anything with the right GA pre-amp, trust me!

jpschust · « **Reply #30 on:** April 29, 2004, 10:46:37 AM »

not throwing stones, and i agree that they are great in the section and fob, but when responding to this q with the very flattest mic response out there, akg doesnt seem to be it. that doesnt make it a bad company by any means- i love the 480s. my other comment was that i wish other companies would be as forth coming with their off axis responses as dpa

Brian · « **Reply #31 on:** April 29, 2004, 01:38:14 PM »

Brauhner?

jnorman34 · « **Reply #32 on:** April 29, 2004, 08:41:49 PM »

s_tl - yes, the brauner VM-1 KHE (klaus heyne edition) is superb - i heard part of a film soundtrack session where they used them as the main stereo pair instead of their normal neumann m50s. very impressive.

rokpunk · « **Reply #33 on:** April 29, 2004, 08:49:17 PM »

3 words.
team radio shack.

recordista · « **Reply #34 on:** May 07, 2004, 10:59:22 PM »

Quote from: jpschust on April 28, 2004, 09:38:43 AM

I really wish akg would publish the off axis measurements too. thats better data to look at for our application.

Their polar patterns tell you a little bit.

Somewhere I have a 90º response curve for the CK63 that I got from AKG Austria. Aha, here it is--stuck in a Word doc and I can't get the image out. Wait, saved it as HTML and found a GIF in the directory, success!

phishn · « **Reply #35 on:** May 08, 2004, 08:03:06 PM »

the very best microphones ever are the ones that sound best to your ears.

AT853rxwh · « **Reply #36 on:** May 08, 2004, 08:24:23 PM »

actually one of the flattest mics is the $2 panasonic element...

So, flat does not necessarily equate to quality sound reproduction... (tho the source follower mod does make it sound pretty good...)

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/components/pdf/em07_wm60_a_dne.pdf

creekfreak · « **Reply #37 on:** May 08, 2004, 10:41:48 PM »

Quote from: phishn on May 08, 2004, 08:03:06 PM

the very best microphones ever are the ones that sound best to your ears.

bingo

jpschust · « **Reply #38 on:** May 09, 2004, 11:31:42 AM »

unless your ears are full of wax :-)

creekfreak · « **Reply #39 on:** May 09, 2004, 06:06:49 PM »

Quote from: jpschust on May 09, 2004, 11:31:42 AM

unless your ears are full of wax :-)

so that's your problem?

ToddL · « **Reply #40 on:** June 04, 2004, 08:43:16 PM »

Quote from: MattD on April 25, 2004, 12:35:03 AM

For chamber music, I can't see anything "beating" the DPA 4011/402x. Odds are that you'll often be set up in an ideal spot in an execllent-sounding room and to my ears, there is nothing that captures that sound better.

Except the B&K 4006. Omni version of the 4011. The most transparent, accurate, and detailed mic around IMHO. If you have an ideal chamber setting, or even close to ideal, you will drool with these.

sonarerec · « **Reply #41 on:** June 04, 2004, 09:53:00 PM »

Ruler flat response does not always equate to the best sound. For chamber music my consistent choice is Schoeps M222/MK21.

Rich

jnorman · « **Reply #42 on:** June 07, 2004, 10:54:44 AM »

sona - my friend out here in oregon is currently trying pairs of schoeps m222s and older m221s, after using DPA 4011s for a couple years. he also uses manley gold mics, which he loves. he likes the schoeps, but isnt quite sure he will stick with them - he is trying some different caps now. my experiences with my schoeps cmc64s indicated that they were indeed very nice for chamber music in the diffuse field, but were quite bottom heavy for near-field applications in the studio where i do most of my work. for these apps, i find that the DPA 4011s and the akg c480/ck61s are about the best things i have ever run across. the DPA 4006s i am testing seem similarly better suited for more diffuse field work, but are truly superb mics all the way around.

jnorman34 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 09, 2004, 10:49:38 AM »

moke - it depends on the size of the hall. the more reverberant the hall, the closer the boundary between the free and diffuse fields. generally, i try to stay just inside that line, or a bit closer. since i do chamber music ensembles, i am usually at around 12-15ft out from the group. that way, if the hall is pretty live, i get a good straight sound, and if an audience is present and the hall becomes less live, i can beef it up with a bit of digi-verb during mix. if i add a pair of ambient mics out inthe hall, i will move the main pair slightly closer in (8-10ft) to get a nice intimate sound while controlling the space with the ambient mics.

macdaddy · « **Reply #44 on:** June 10, 2004, 02:41:52 PM »

Quote from: Moke on June 10, 2004, 02:35:57 PM

question for jnorman,

I noticed in your pics of the 406x that you posted, that you had the mics mod'd. I also noticed in the pictures that you didn't have the grids on over the capsules.

Do you typically run without the grids?
Why? My guess is that it would be that much more flat in response?

many thanks

I thought about doing this, too - getting rid of the grids altogether...

is there any reason why I should not try this..?

Author Topic: the very best mics? (Read 11718 times)

jnorman34

jpschust

jpschust

jpschust

jnorman34

radioboy1977

jpschust

jpschust

jpschust

jnorman34

jpschust

jnorman34