Topic: my next mics: DPA's? Schoeps? Neumann? Milabs? other? opinions wanted

[JasonSobel]

ok, thanks for the clarification about the NBOX.

does the NBOX output a mic level signal that still needs more gain, or a line level signal?

Line level.

hmmmm, if it's only +20 dB of gain, that may be considered "line level", but I almost always need more than 20dB of gain.  if I run into a 702, though, then it won't really matter and I'll just add whatever gain I need on the 702...

The nbox is based on the RMOD.. The RMOD is reputed to be tuned specifically for mk4 caps.  So I would expect there might be some tweaking to optimize for the MG. I would say that the construction of the rmod is somewhat different than the nbox and they are definitely not the same.  I've never compared the sound.

Ultimately, I really want to build an MG RMOD but it all takes lots of time...

RMOD ??  what's that.  I always thought that the nbox was based on the RBOX (aka "Bill Box" aka "huber", first made by Bill Reuthelhuber).  I've never done a direct comp between them, but I have used the RBOX before, and my basic understanding was that the nbox had the same innards, but with nicer packaging (i.e. no sharp metal corners, etc, etc..)  of course, I might be wrong about that.  so, are you talking about the same thing when you say RMOD ??  obviously, Nick has needed to change a lot of the circuitry to create the MG NBOX, as it's taken a while to get it up and going. (and it's not out yet, but, optimistically speaking, it'll be available shortly).

[ingsy]

i hate to see any jk labs fluffing w/out adding that the fucker stole a shit load of gear/money from many of us ($500 worth of stuff from me).  sorry for venting, couldn't help it.

in terms of the MG NBox possibly sounding different than sms2000 bodies + (insert favorite pre-amp) - yeah, i agree.  i can't wait to try it out though, and Jason if you want to hold off and test the waters w/ mine, then that is OK.  i have no bodies, hence nothing to lose.  w/ a little help from Jason Adler (m20) and Brad's R4 we could setup a test using the same AD and recorder at a D'Elf show or something.

[JasonSobel]

Tim -
yeah, I'm fully aware that the MG nbox may not sound identical to the mv200 bodies.  but my hope is that it sounds more similar to the "real" MG sound than any other option would.  when I buy a MG nbox, it would probably be in addition to my mic bodies, not replacing them.

Matt -
a comp with an R4 sounds like a great idea.  it shouldn't be hard to get Jason down to a d'Elf show and we can rock out the MG m200 vs. MG m20 > nbox
hopefully it'll be able to happen sooner rather than later.

[John Willett]

 Not having read all through this thread - but - I would add the new Neumann KM-D series to the list.

I am just getting a stereo pair of the KM 183-D and will be doing a week of piano recording the week after next.

Goes to digits at the mic. capsule and no distortion on overloads.   

[Stagger]

Jason, Next time you rin into Carl Beck ask him about his 4022s. I believe his exact words were "I fucking hated to pieces of freeze-dried dog shit". He has owned Schoeps, AKG 48x's, DPAs and now runs my old c34. When I was looking to put my rig back together I aksed him what he whould do (after he refused to sell me back his (my) c34). He said that with out question he would get Schoeps. In his case mk41's and mk21's ~> CMC6. The Schoeps nay-sayers can piss and moan and -T me all they like but, Save for the WI panic show when security forced me and Charles under the balcony, all of my tapes with my new rig have smoked on all of my playback systems (I ma not trying to brag in the least here but none of them are crap and if a tape blows, I'll hear it...period) The Fabers, Krell/Martin Logan (yes fucking 'stats), HD600 cans, they all kick ass.

There is a reason that so many people run Schoeps and it's B.S. that it's just cause they want to wave their CMC6's around like their cock and the chicks love 'em (well the chicks do think Schoeps are damn sexy, right Stacy? [I won't tell Tim]). It's cause they make damn good tapes. Even more so with the Hess/Kwon DINa bars coming into more widespread use rather than the ORTF bars.

The Milabs are interesting but I don't like what I see on their response chart. I know the 11/4 Panic tapes smoked but most of the other discs I have heard sound just like the graph says they should sound... boosted in the high end.

Lastly, for now, why a 702? Do a 722. You will thank yourself later, the internal HD is, in my expierence, far more usefull than timecode. The fact that you can use either the INHDD, CF, or EXHDD (of which I have all) simply kicks ass. C-link will take care of most of what you would need the TC for (and you can still synch to an external TC with a BNC cable on a 722 anyway). Trust me, when you are dumping a C-inked 744 14GB files of the SBD+OMNI to your 80gb bus powered EXHDD in 10 min in the hotel so you can go home and do your 6 ch mix at home to compare with your friends FOB DPA 4022>722 (which you will smoke) that you dropped your 8gb flash card in and grabbed abck at the end of the set, all the while having a full backup of your mk4v>kc5>cmc6>V2>722 safely in your INHDD you will be very, very glad you have a 722.

[John Willett]

I'm still interested in hearing anything that people would like to share about the Schoeps CCM series, or the Neumann km140 actives, or the DPA's, or the Milabs

Well, yesterday I ran up the new Neumann KM-D series with both omni and cardioid heads (the remote cables and more capsules aka the KM100 series will come next year).

These have the A/D at the capsule (28-Bit).  I tested them via my Grace m902 D/A and a pair of HD 580 headphones.

As a test I just placed them on the desk and added 40dB of digital gain (something you would not really do in practice).  I stopped at 40dB gain because more than that started feedback in the headphones.

At that level the mic noise was very quiet, well below that of any analogue mic. I have heard and all the noise was low frequency and was basically the air movements of the air being pushed around by the central heating system.  Because of the inbuilt digital limiter there was no distortion on high levels when I tested that.

I was most impressed.

Next week I have five days of solo piano recording - Blüthner 9' Concert Grand - Location: Menuhin Hall in Stoke d'Abernon - the first session of what will eventually be a release of five or six CDs.

The recording will be done with the KM 183-Ds directly into the digital input of my Fostex FR-2.  I normally record solo piano with the Sennheiser MKH 20s and I will also be running a pair of those via an A+D DMA-2 into a second FR-2.  I'll report back after the sessions.....

[JasonSobel]

Jason, Next time you rin into Carl Beck ask him about his 4022s. I believe his exact words were "I fucking hated to pieces of freeze-dried dog shit". He has owned Schoeps, AKG 48x's, DPAs and now runs my old c34. When I was looking to put my rig back together I aksed him what he whould do (after he refused to sell me back his (my) c34). He said that with out question he would get Schoeps. In his case mk41's and mk21's ~> CMC6. The Schoeps nay-sayers can piss and moan and -T me all they like but, Save for the WI panic show when security forced me and Charles under the balcony, all of my tapes with my new rig have smoked on all of my playback systems (I ma not trying to brag in the least here but none of them are crap and if a tape blows, I'll hear it...period) The Fabers, Krell/Martin Logan (yes fucking 'stats), HD600 cans, they all kick ass.

There is a reason that so many people run Schoeps and it's B.S. that it's just cause they want to wave their CMC6's around like their cock and the chicks love 'em (well the chicks do think Schoeps are damn sexy, right Stacy? [I won't tell Tim]). It's cause they make damn good tapes. Even more so with the Hess/Kwon DINa bars coming into more widespread use rather than the ORTF bars.

The Milabs are interesting but I don't like what I see on their response chart. I know the 11/4 Panic tapes smoked but most of the other discs I have heard sound just like the graph says they should sound... boosted in the high end.

thanks for the input.  I'm still mulling over all my options, and I haven't decided on anything just yet.  I realize Schoeps are great mics, and I've borrowed them several times in the past when I've needed a low-pro setup.  they are still definitely an option.  but, as has been said before, all the mics I'm thinking about are great mics... The Milabs... yeah, I just haven't heard enough recordings from them to make any sort of informed decision, which is why I'm shying away from those.

Lastly, for now, why a 702? Do a 722. You will thank yourself later, the internal HD is, in my expierence, far more usefull than timecode. The fact that you can use either the INHDD, CF, or EXHDD (of which I have all) simply kicks ass. C-link will take care of most of what you would need the TC for (and you can still synch to an external TC with a BNC cable on a 722 anyway). Trust me, when you are dumping a C-inked 744 14GB files of the SBD+OMNI to your 80gb bus powered EXHDD in 10 min in the hotel so you can go home and do your 6 ch mix at home to compare with your friends FOB DPA 4022>722 (which you will smoke) that you dropped your 8gb flash card in and grabbed abck at the end of the set, all the while having a full backup of your mk4v>kc5>cmc6>V2>722 safely in your INHDD you will be very, very glad you have a 722.

I realize that a 722 offers more options, but things I don't need.  honestly, at this point, I want to spend as little money as possible.  In order to make any sort of switch, I'd have to sell both my V3 and the HD-P2.  selling them both would probably get me $100 of the 702.  but the 722 is $500 more than the 702.  so that's $500 more that I'd have to spend for something I don't need.  I never go on tour, and I rarely tape at festivals, so there's no need for a harddrive.  my 8 gig CF card is good for 4 hours at 24/96, so I'm all set in the media department anyway.  throw in the better battery life (because no HD to spin), and it's an easy choice for me.

I'm still interested in hearing anything that people would like to share about the Schoeps CCM series, or the Neumann km140 actives, or the DPA's, or the Milabs

Well, yesterday I ran up the new Neumann KM-D series with both omni and cardioid heads (the remote cables and more capsules aka the KM100 series will come next year).

These have the A/D at the capsule (28-Bit).  I tested them via my Grace m902 D/A and a pair of HD 580 headphones.

As a test I just placed them on the desk and added 40dB of digital gain (something you would not really do in practice).  I stopped at 40dB gain because more than that started feedback in the headphones.

At that level the mic noise was very quiet, well below that of any analogue mic. I have heard and all the noise was low frequency and was basically the air movements of the air being pushed around by the central heating system.  Because of the inbuilt digital limiter there was no distortion on high levels when I tested that.

I was most impressed.

Next week I have five days of solo piano recording - Blüthner 9' Concert Grand - Location: Menuhin Hall in Stoke d'Abernon - the first session of what will eventually be a release of five or six CDs.

The recording will be done with the KM 183-Ds directly into the digital input of my Fostex FR-2.  I normally record solo piano with the Sennheiser MKH 20s and I will also be running a pair of those via an A+D DMA-2 into a second FR-2.  I'll report back after the sessions.....

John -I'm glad that you are happy with your mics, but I'm not interested in them.

[nickgregory]

Jason, Next time you rin into Carl Beck ask him about his 4022s. I believe his exact words were "I fucking hated to pieces of freeze-dried dog shit". He has owned Schoeps, AKG 48x's, DPAs and now runs my old c34.

to each their own...honestlyh though I wish AKGs sounded as good as my 4022s, I would love to have less money in my rig and more for other purposes...

[scb]

Jason, Next time you rin into Carl Beck ask him about his 4022s. I believe his exact words were "I fucking hated to pieces of freeze-dried dog shit".

if you ever see me, ask me about my 4022s.  i'll sing a different tune

over the years, i've run with or run a bunch of different mics at shows, and i own the 22s because i think they consistently sounded better and more accurate than the others.  these include most akg,schoeps,neumann,gefells that you'll find out there (including tubes)

now i'm not saying that every other mic sucks.  but i've owned my 4022s for coming up on 5 years now, and i've heard nothing out there that makes me want to replace them anytime soon.  the only mics that might make the 22s #2 on any given night are the 4026s

[Stagger]

I realize that a 722 offers more options, but things I don't need.  honestly, at this point, I want to spend as little money as possible.  In order to make any sort of switch, I'd have to sell both my V3 and the HD-P2.  selling them both would probably get me $100 of the 702.  but the 722 is $500 more than the 702.  so that's $500 more that I'd have to spend for something I don't need.  I never go on tour, and I rarely tape at festivals, so there's no need for a harddrive.  my 8 gig CF card is good for 4 hours at 24/96, so I'm all set in the media department anyway.  throw in the better battery life (because no HD to spin), and it's an easy choice for me.

Then sell the V3 and the HD-P2. Find a V2 like i did (they do pop up now and again). The A>D on the 7xx series is better than on the V3 anyway. Pull up the bootstraps and run XXXMics>722 till you can get another pre-amp you like. Also you can select to record only to the CF card on a 722 and save battery life. I have a CF card forthe 722 and use it when I know the recording will be under 4 hours to save HD life but... I know this the theoretical... just suppose there is an opener you like. With the 702 you are stuck unless you have two CF cards and that's 1/3 of the price difference. Well I suppose you could record 24/48 or 16 bit but WTF?

[JasonSobel]

I realize that a 722 offers more options, but things I don't need.  honestly, at this point, I want to spend as little money as possible.  In order to make any sort of switch, I'd have to sell both my V3 and the HD-P2.  selling them both would probably get me $100 of the 702.  but the 722 is $500 more than the 702.  so that's $500 more that I'd have to spend for something I don't need.  I never go on tour, and I rarely tape at festivals, so there's no need for a harddrive.  my 8 gig CF card is good for 4 hours at 24/96, so I'm all set in the media department anyway.  throw in the better battery life (because no HD to spin), and it's an easy choice for me.

Then sell the V3 and the HD-P2. Find a V2 like i did (they do pop up now and again). The A>D on the 7xx series is better than on the V3 anyway. Pull up the bootstraps and run XXXMics>722 till you can get another pre-amp you like. Also you can select to record only to the CF card on a 722 and save battery life. I have a CF card forthe 722 and use it when I know the recording will be under 4 hours to save HD life but... I know this the theoretical... just suppose there is an opener you like. With the 702 you are stuck unless you have two CF cards and that's 1/3 of the price difference. Well I suppose you could record 24/48 or 16 bit but WTF?

a 722 is just not going to happen.  it's an extra $500 and that's $500 I don't have.  I already have enough CF media (I have a 2 gig, 4 gig, and an 8 gig CF card).  that's enough for any opening + main act.  while the A/D in the SD 7xx units may be better than the V3 A/D, I like my pre-amp better than the internal pres.  in my mind, the pre-amp is more important than the A/D (i.e. I'd rather run a great pre-amp into an OK A/D converter than run an OK pre-amp into a great A/D converter).  so using your logic, I should NOT sell both the V3 + HD-P2 and run the 702 all-in-one until I can afford my pre-amp of choice.  in my mind it's better to wait until I can afford a 702 without having to sell the V3.

I think of all the great advise on this thread, the best advise has actually come from my wife: "why not just stick with what you've got, because you love the way it sounds.  and when you need to, you can borrow a stealth setup"

so that's what I'm going to do.  I'm so happy with the way my recording gear sounds, so I'll probably just sit tight for now.  if the MG nbox becomes a reality, I'll probably jump on that.  but in the meantime, I've actually made it through this period of time of questioning my gear without changing a thing 

[Brian Skalinder]

while the A/D in the SD 7xx units may be better than the V3 A/D, I like my pre-amp better than the internal pres.  in my mind, the pre-amp is more important than the A/D (i.e. I'd rather run a great pre-amp into an OK A/D converter than run an OK pre-amp into a great A/D converter).  so using your logic, I should NOT sell both the V3 + HD-P2 and run the 702 all-in-one until I can afford my pre-amp of choice.  in my mind it's better to wait until I can afford a 702 without having to sell the V3.

I'd say the 7x2 ADC is different than the V3, not necessarily better.  Depends who you ask, what you're recording, etc.

Anyway, I think you should...

<1>  identify the sonic characteristics you want to change (or maintain) in your lower profile gear and then seek out the gear that meets your profile needs and sonic desires
or
<2>  buy new mics and use your current pre/ADC for a while until you decide what sonic characteristics about the pre/ADC (or even mics, for that matter) you want to change.
or
<3>  buy a new pre/ADC and use your current mics for a while until you decide what sonic characteristics about the mics (or pre/ADC) you want to change.

Shoot...just finished reading your post!  Well, I'll leave my comments above, anyway.  Sounds like you don't have a compelling reason to cahnge, so...excellent move sticking with what you've got.

[BC]

I think of all the great advise on this thread, the best advise has actually come from my wife: "why not just stick with what you've got, because you love the way it sounds.  and when you need to, you can borrow a stealth setup"

Word, and if you are really jonesin for a stealthy rig you could pick up a pair of 4060's to run into your P2. Not sure how much a pair would run and how that fits into your budget...

No, P2 is not super stealthy, but definitely doable.

[JasonSobel]

while the A/D in the SD 7xx units may be better than the V3 A/D, I like my pre-amp better than the internal pres.  in my mind, the pre-amp is more important than the A/D (i.e. I'd rather run a great pre-amp into an OK A/D converter than run an OK pre-amp into a great A/D converter).  so using your logic, I should NOT sell both the V3 + HD-P2 and run the 702 all-in-one until I can afford my pre-amp of choice.  in my mind it's better to wait until I can afford a 702 without having to sell the V3.

I'd say the 7x2 ADC is different than the V3, not necessarily better.  Depends who you ask, what you're recording, etc.

Anyway, I think you should...

<1>  identify the sonic characteristics you want to change (or maintain) in your lower profile gear and then seek out the gear that meets your profile needs and sonic desires
or
<2>  buy new mics and use your current pre/ADC for a while until you decide what sonic characteristics about the pre/ADC (or even mics, for that matter) you want to change.
or
<3>  buy a new pre/ADC and use your current mics for a while until you decide what sonic characteristics about the mics (or pre/ADC) you want to change.

Shoot...just finished reading your post!  Well, I'll leave my comments above, anyway.  Sounds like you don't have a compelling reason to cahnge, so...excellent move sticking with what you've got.

definitely very good advise.  I pretty much went with number 1 "identify the sonic characteristics you want to change (or maintain) in your lower profile gear and then seek out the gear that meets your profile needs and sonic desires" and decided that I don't want to change the sound of my gear one bit.  so until I can afford the 702 without selling the V3, that'll be that.  it'd be nice to also have an option for low-pro mics, but I'm not will to give up the Gefells to get there, is what I realized.

No, P2 is not super stealthy, but definitely doable.

indeed, the HD-P2 is not super stealthy.  but I also realized that I was just being lazy.  the type of shows that I need to stealth, I just need low-pro mics.  the kind of show where I'll be able to "stealth" not just the HD-P2, but the full V3 > HD-P2.  it's just a matter of keeping the mics out of sight.  sure, it'd be easier to just have a 702 to deal with on those occasions, but not neccesary...

[Stagger]

Then, indeed, stick with your wife's advice. Wait till you have the cash to do it right or don't do it at all otherwise you are robbing Peter to pay Paul.

"That's right, the women are smarter!"