Topic: r09 and +4 line level?

[floop]

Heya,

Sorry, n00b question here.  I have an old sony d7 dat recorder which I found out the hard way doesnt like the xlr line level outs on my mix-pre.  It turns out the mix-pre line level is "professional line level" which is +4db hotter than what the d7 wants.

This was the first i'd heard of "pro line level" and since its not always explicitly stated whether gear can handle it or not...

Can the r-09 accept +4db pro line level inputs on the line in miniplug or would it be restricted to the tape out on the mixpre?

Or, assuming that a mixing board will feed +4 out as well, can you just use an xlr to mini adapter to feed the r09 or do you need -4 pad as well?

thanks for your time,

-A

[Brian Skalinder]

Nothing to add about the R-09, but...I used to run MixPre > D100 line-in and had no problems.  Are you sure the D7 is set to line-in and not mic-in?  Also, try the mini stereo output on the MixPre - it's 6dB lower output than the XLR outputs.  This -should- work just fine, if my D100 experiences are any indication.  Out of curiousity, what mics are you using?

[floop]

Nothing to add about the R-09, but...I used to run MixPre > D100 line-in and had no problems.  Are you sure the D7 is set to line-in and not mic-in?  Also, try the mini stereo output on the MixPre - it's 6dB lower output than the XLR outputs.  This -should- work just fine, if my D100 experiences are any indication.  Out of curiousity, what mics are you using?

heya,
I'm positive the d7 is set to line in. Its a different input.  After running into the brickwalling problem i read here about the d7/d8 having a issues with too hot a line level input.  Apparantly the input adjustment comes after something that freaks out from the too hot signal. The line input cannot handle +4db levels. To avoid the brickwalling, you are supposed to keep the input level at 6 or above, and if you need to attenuate below that, you need to pad the input. If i remember correctly the d100 has a smarter architecture and does not do the brickwalling thing.

I use the mini stereo output to the dat as a workaround, but i'd really like to be able to send that to another recorder and the xlr to the dat/r09.

I do video production and am using the mixpre with either a at4073a or oktava 012 for outdoor/indoor voice recording (or a pair of sennheiser evolution 2 if the first two are inconvenient).  I use the dat as a redundant audio recording and send the line level to the camera.  Depending on what camera we are using it might have xlr in, but if not, i prefer to use the miniplug out to feed the camera and the xlr out to the 24 bit recorder. (partly because we keep the miniplug runs to the camera as short as possible and if tripped over, i like how the miniplug cable easily pops out of the mixpre without causing damage)

Anyways, i already ordered an r09.  I was just curious if anybody knew anything about the input tolerances.

cheers!
-A

[hyperplane]

FWIW, the Sonic Studios page has some "tips" and "information" about the various Sony DAT models. (No, I am NOT fluffing Sonic Studios products; the website, if you search through all the fluff, does have some useful live recording tips.)  The page says something about how the D100 and M1 can handle "hotter" signals than the D7/D8 units, and if memory serves, it makes some mention about the former (D100/M1) handling a "pro +4dB" levels such as from a SBD.

Sorry I can't comment on the line levels the R-09 can accept. It would be nice if there were some documentation on this from Edirol/Roland...

[guysonic]

FWIW, the Sonic Studios page has some "tips" and "information" about the various Sony DAT models. (No, I am NOT fluffing Sonic Studios products; the website, if you search through all the fluff, does have some useful live recording tips.)  The page says something about how the D100 and M1 can handle "hotter" signals than the D7/D8 units, and if memory serves, it makes some mention about the former (D100/M1) handling a "pro +4dB" levels such as from a SBD.

Sorry I can't comment on the line levels the R-09 can accept. It would be nice if there were some documentation on this from Edirol/Roland...

If you won't mind the 60% not completed look, finished input level specification chart and noise graphs are at:
http://www.sonicstudios.com/r-09revw.htm

[SunWizard]

And to answer you from that page about the R-09:

The LINE input handles fully professional input levels up to a whopping +16 dBm! Ability to handle such high input levels without clipping is a first in a portable minideck without needing external attenuation adapters.

[olyrc]

heya,
I'm positive the d7 is set to line in. Its a different input.  After running into the brickwalling problem i read here about the d7/d8 having a issues with too hot a line level input.  Apparantly the input adjustment comes after something that freaks out from the too hot signal. The line input cannot handle +4db levels. To avoid the brickwalling, you are supposed to keep the input level at 6 or above, and if you need to attenuate below that, you need to pad the input. If i remember correctly the d100 has a smarter architecture and does not do the brickwalling thing.

I use the mini stereo output to the dat as a workaround, but i'd really like to be able to send that to another recorder and the xlr to the dat/r09.

Anyways, i already ordered an r09.  I was just curious if anybody knew anything about the input tolerances.

cheers!
-A

Not sure if this is along the same lines or not, but I brickwalled the shit out of two shows last week (Death Cab for Cutie 8/10 in Veneta, OR and Toad the Wet Sprocket 8/11 in Veneta, OR).  I'm running DPA 4061 > DPA mma6000 > R-09.  I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5 (I blame the beer for not knowing exactly).  The levels looked fine.  On one listen, 100% of the kickdrums, 80% of the bass line and 50% of the vocals overloaded completely on both shows.

I taped Toad again tonight in Seattle, dialed the signal on the mma6000 back to under +20db and ran the input level on the R-09 up to 15.  The tape is spectacular (at least in comparison to the other two).

Can somebody help me on the technical side of what the heck I did to the first two shows?  I've been doing more of a "throw it up and hit record" approach and I think I need some more edge-a-muhcation.

Thanks!

[Zaphod]

heya,
I'm positive the d7 is set to line in. Its a different input.  After running into the brickwalling problem i read here about the d7/d8 having a issues with too hot a line level input.  Apparantly the input adjustment comes after something that freaks out from the too hot signal. The line input cannot handle +4db levels. To avoid the brickwalling, you are supposed to keep the input level at 6 or above, and if you need to attenuate below that, you need to pad the input. If i remember correctly the d100 has a smarter architecture and does not do the brickwalling thing.

I use the mini stereo output to the dat as a workaround, but i'd really like to be able to send that to another recorder and the xlr to the dat/r09.

Anyways, i already ordered an r09.  I was just curious if anybody knew anything about the input tolerances.

cheers!
-A

Not sure if this is along the same lines or not, but I brickwalled the shit out of two shows last week (Death Cab for Cutie 8/10 in Veneta, OR and Toad the Wet Sprocket 8/11 in Veneta, OR).  I'm running DPA 4061 > DPA mma6000 > R-09.  I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5 (I blame the beer for not knowing exactly).  The levels looked fine.  On one listen, 100% of the kickdrums, 80% of the bass line and 50% of the vocals overloaded completely on both shows.

I taped Toad again tonight in Seattle, dialed the signal on the mma6000 back to under +20db and ran the input level on the R-09 up to 15.  The tape is spectacular (at least in comparison to the other two).

Can somebody help me on the technical side of what the heck I did to the first two shows?  I've been doing more of a "throw it up and hit record" approach and I think I need some more edge-a-muhcation.

Thanks!

Were you running mic-in or line-in into the R-09?

[hyperplane]

Not sure if this is along the same lines or not, but I brickwalled the shit out of two shows last week (Death Cab for Cutie 8/10 in Veneta, OR and Toad the Wet Sprocket 8/11 in Veneta, OR).  I'm running DPA 4061 > DPA mma6000 > R-09.  I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5 (I blame the beer for not knowing exactly).  The levels looked fine.  On one listen, 100% of the kickdrums, 80% of the bass line and 50% of the vocals overloaded completely on both shows.

I put the key parts of your first paragraph in bold print.  Elsewhere on this site, someone posted this information on the R-09:

- from level number 8 up to 30 is positive (+) gain
- from level 1 to 7 is negative (-) gain/attenuation
- level 0 is muted (no sound)

Therefore, it would seem like you were simply boosting the signal too much with your MMA6000.  Basically, it would seem, it's best to have the recording levels on the R-09 set to at least 8, based on the aforementioned findings.

I taped Toad again tonight in Seattle, dialed the signal on the mma6000 back to under +20db and ran the input level on the R-09 up to 15.  The tape is spectacular (at least in comparison to the other two).

And the above information would offer some indication as to why this second Toad tape is much better... i.e. you had the gain within the positive ("good") gain range.


Disclaimer:
I'm not saying the R-09 cannot produce good results using a gain setting below 8, I'm just speculating on why this user had distortion issues when taping (with recording levels needing to be set a good bit below "8"), based on information posted in another TS thread.

Overall, this seems like the same type of issue as when one records with a Sony TCD-D7/8, and has to turn the level knob below #4 to avoid clipping... even though the levels on the peak meter "look fine," you get brickwalling like a mofo.

[olyrc]

Were you running mic-in or line-in into the R-09?

line-in

[olyrc]

Not sure if this is along the same lines or not, but I brickwalled the shit out of two shows last week (Death Cab for Cutie 8/10 in Veneta, OR and Toad the Wet Sprocket 8/11 in Veneta, OR).  I'm running DPA 4061 > DPA mma6000 > R-09.  I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5 (I blame the beer for not knowing exactly).  The levels looked fine.  On one listen, 100% of the kickdrums, 80% of the bass line and 50% of the vocals overloaded completely on both shows.

I put the key parts of your first paragraph in bold print.  Elsewhere on this site, someone posted this information on the R-09:

- from level number 8 up to 30 is positive (+) gain
- from level 1 to 7 is negative (-) gain/attenuation
- level 0 is muted (no sound)

Therefore, it would seem like you were simply boosting the signal too much with your MMA6000.  Basically, it would seem, it's best to have the recording levels on the R-09 set to at least 8, based on the aforementioned findings.

I taped Toad again tonight in Seattle, dialed the signal on the mma6000 back to under +20db and ran the input level on the R-09 up to 15.  The tape is spectacular (at least in comparison to the other two).

And the above information would offer some indication as to why this second Toad tape is much better... i.e. you had the gain within the positive ("good") gain range.


Disclaimer:
I'm not saying the R-09 cannot produce good results using a gain setting below 8, I'm just speculating on why this user had distortion issues when taping (with recording levels needing to be set a good bit below "8"), based on information posted in another TS thread.

Overall, this seems like the same type of issue as when one records with a Sony TCD-D7/8, and has to turn the level knob below #4 to avoid clipping... even though the levels on the peak meter "look fine," you get brickwalling like a mofo.

Makes sense.  Wish I'd investigated a bit beforehand, but now I know.

Thanks & +t.

[dunebug81]

I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5

Isnt it better to have the MMA6000 at the lowest gain setting possible while having the recorder gain up to a high level?  I thought I was told that when I first got my MMA6000.  I run MD and go line in and have the MMA6000 on +0 (or +2.5 if the show isnt very loud) and have the MD at 26-28 of 30.

[hyperplane]

Makes sense.  Wish I'd investigated a bit beforehand, but now I know.

Thanks & +t.

No problem!  I hope a FAQ (even a "beta" FAQ) for the R-09 will pop up soon... just for facts like this, the run times on various types of batteries in the R-09, the fact that 4gig Transcend SD cards seem to work fine, etc.  It seems such a FAQ would eliminate some of the "redundant" questions in other threads, e.g. "can I use a 4GB card in the R-09?"  (Which seems to be an oft asked question.)

+T back to you.

[Gutbucket]

Isnt it better to have the MMA6000 at the lowest gain setting possible while having the recorder gain up to a high level?  I thought I was told that when I first got my MMA6000.  I run MD and go line in and have the MMA6000 on +0 (or +2.5 if the show isnt very loud) and have the MD at 26-28 of 30.

Depends if you prefer the gain stage of the recorder or that of your preamp.  I find the MMA6000 cleaner than the gain of the R-09 so I keep the R-09 set around the 10 range (line in - adjusted for peak level) and make up most of the gain required to get a good level on the MMA6000.  Then I can adjust the line in a few clicks up or down to accomodate peak levels.  The MMA6000 when set to +0 is just acting as a battery box to power the mics and signal buffer.  In that case all gain needed is made up by the recorder.  I haven't used MD so I don't know how the pre's sound or how the gain structure works, but I prefer the sound of the MMA6000 over the R-09. 

I ran a super hot signal from the mma6000 to the R-09 and dialed the R-09 input level back to somewhere between 2 & 5

It's possible the preamp was overloading, but the signal was attenuated enough by the R-09 to have acceptable levels.  Since 8=unity and anything under that is attenuated, a setting of 2 on the line in of the R-09 would be a lot of attenuation (though I don't know how much without testing it), It would be nice if the MMA6000 had a clip light.