Topic: split mono-block config?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

I have a idea that maybe you guys have tried or have some thoughts on.

I have for a long time wanted to get monoblocks.  The natural upgrade path would be for me to get the Premier 12s to replace the Premier 11A.  The 12s have twice the power of the 11A and the benefit of power supply isolation that makes monoblocks so nice.  This was logical when I had the Thiels that could not be bi-wired.

Now that I have bi-wire-able speakers, I really want to try bi-amping.  The VSA manual states that the VR4JRs can benefit greatly from bi-amping even when using a passive splitter between the amps because of the design of the crossovers in the loudspeakers.  I'd rather not get mixed up with active crossovers yet if I can avoid it.

So my new idea is to maybe get another Premier 11A and put an 11A on each speaker.  That would allow me to split the channels across two discrete amplifiers, effectively making them monoblocks.  But each monoblock would have a pair of 70wpc outputs so I could bi amp the speakers.   That configuration should give me the benefits of both bi-amping and monoblocks, but I would not have the head room of a single 140W amp.

The only thing about this that I have any concern is if the Premier 11A will allow me to put different driver tubes on each side.  I want to run the KT90s to the bass cabinets and use 6550s on the upper cabinets.  I have an email in to CJ to see what they say.  If I can't do that I have to go with identical tubes upper and lower because I don't want to lose the monoblock part of this by splitting upper and lower across two shared amps.  Being able to use application specific tubes on each leg would be a whole new level of sluttyness for me.

The cost is about the same for either solution.  I wouldn't mind not having the extra power headroom because I've already picked out the next likely speaker and it's 4db more sensitive so I should be fine with the 70wpc of the 11A.

So any ideas if this would be a better thing than just getting Premier 12s and running bi wires?  Has anyone tried this before?

edit:spelling

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

OK, follow up to this is it isn't anything novel.  It's called "vertical bi-amping".  Apparently there's a whole new world out there if you know the correct search terms.

I got very strong feedback from CJ and Agon discussion responses in favor of doing this.   Apparently the only area of concern is that the two  channels may not mate exactly if the sound of the amps or the tubes characteristics diverge as they age since I would be buying amps that were not factory matched.  But the overwhelming response was that if I did this, I would never go back and I might never again leave my listening position.

Ducati must ne buried with work.  I was sure that he'd be all over this.

[cheshirecat]

Ok, so now I'm curious.  What are the adv/disadv of running vertical biamping over running each amp in stereo with one amp driving the lows and one amp driving the highs?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Vertical bi-amping ensures that there is no channel crosstalk within the amplification stage.  This is the same benefit provided by monoblocks:  completely isolated channels in their own chassis with their own power supplies.  Some highend gear manufacturers build preamps in a monoblock configuration: CJ has a preamp like this, I think Blue Circle has one, there are others.

[cheshirecat]

Interesting, so coming from your pre do you split the audio signal to the L/R input of each amp so each channel is seeing the same thing?

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

yes, just like normal bi-amping you can use an active crossover or just split each output of the preamp.  Except in this case, each amp is upper/lower instead of L/R.

[Zee]

OK, follow up to this is it isn't anything novel.  It's called "vertical bi-amping".  Apparently there's a whole new world out there if you know the correct search terms.

I got very strong feedback from CJ and Agon discussion responses in favor of doing this.   Apparently the only area of concern is that the two  channels may not mate exactly if the sound of the amps or the tubes characteristics diverge as they age since I would be buying amps that were not factory matched.  But the overwhelming response was that if I did this, I would never go back and I might never again leave my listening position.

Ducati must ne buried with work.  I was sure that he'd be all over this.

Im thinking of doing the same thing for my martin logans tubes on the ESL and solidstate for the speaker.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Hey Zee, I bet that would sound sweet.   What are you running for power now?

Everything I've read about biamping says this is the way to go.  The only issue with putting tubes up top and SS on the bottom is that you are going to have to tune the upper and lower bands to match, so that gets into potentially using active crossovers ahead of the amps.   Using a pair of identical amps will not require any work for the upper and lower bands to be matched.  I think thats the easiest thing for me although I did consider getting a SS amp for the bass modules but bailed when I started looking into the active crossover set-up.  I still need to figure out what I want to do - biamp first or upgrade to a DAC.  I got to hear a 192K upsampling DAC in my system last night and it handily beat the stock 2900, so now I'm leaning back toward the DAC as the next upgrade.


BTW, did you remember our disussion in Portsmouth about looking for a thanksgiving show in Houston?  I told my GF that we were going to take the gear and hit a show while we're down there and it went over just as well as I expected 

[Tim]

which dac?

[MattD]

I got to hear a 192K upsampling DAC in my system last night and it handily beat the stock 2900, so now I'm leaning back toward the DAC as the next upgrade.

It was a 96k upsampler (ULN-2 set at 96k, hardware SRC enabled). Thanks for the invitation ... and that beer is damn good!

[Zee]

Hey Zee, I bet that would sound sweet.   What are you running for power now?

Everything I've read about biamping says this is the way to go.  The only issue with putting tubes up top and SS on the bottom is that you are going to have to tune the upper and lower bands to match, so that gets into potentially using active crossovers ahead of the amps.   Using a pair of identical amps will not require any work for the upper and lower bands to be matched.  I think thats the easiest thing for me although I did consider getting a SS amp for the bass modules but bailed when I started looking into the active crossover set-up.  I still need to figure out what I want to do - biamp first or upgrade to a DAC.  I got to hear a 192K upsampling DAC in my system last night and it handily beat the stock 2900, so now I'm leaning back toward the DAC as the next upgrade.


BTW, did you remember our disussion in Portsmouth about looking for a thanksgiving show in Houston?  I told my GF that we were going to take the gear and hit a show while we're down there and it went over just as well as I expected 

Right now just a Piece of Shit adcom 7700. The active crossover is why I have not done it yet.. I don’t know enough about it and I don’t have the time to fall off into that time/money trap right now. Maybe after the 1st of the year I can start playing with it a little.



I could just bi amp them for now and that’s been on my mind a lot. Use the internal cross over and run tubes to the ESLs. I want to hear that Rocket 88R on the ESL.  


LOL on the GF comments they always want to stop us ;-) Ill send you a PM with my # so when you get to town in november if anything we can go have some drinks.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

The easiest and least expensive thing to do is to just bi-amp with a pair of identical amps.  Thats what I'm doing but vertical instead of horizontal.  Even if you want a bigger amp on the bottom, remember that the combined power into the speaker is now twice what it was, so maybe you don't really need a much bigger amp down low.   At least thats how I hoping it will work with the VRs.

It was a 96k upsampler (ULN-2 set at 96k, hardware SRC enabled). Thanks for the invitation ... and that beer is damn good!

Didn't realize that it was only 96K.  Nice.  Way to heap even more shame upon the 2900 ;-)

If you liked that from the growler, you need to come out to the brewery and drink right from the tap before you move away.

[EScott]

I was just talking to Kevin @ Upscale this afternoon about bi-amping my jr's.  If you remember from our discussion in Portsmouth, I'm picking up a pair of Manley Snappers at the end of the month and was thinking about running those on the M/T's and then a solid state on the bass modules.  I was informed that the Snappers pack such a punch that more than likely, they will be quite enough power.  We shall see shortly...

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

Those snappers look really wild.  I'm sure that there will be plenty of power.  For me the biamping is more about wanting to hear if splitting the bands makes a sonic difference.   When I got the Premier 11A, I was positive that I would ultimately go for the Premier 12 monoblocks for the additional power.  But after reading about bi-amping, I want to try that first.   I guess that I'm too easily distracted by shiney things.

[EScott]

Those snappers look really wild.  I'm sure that there will be plenty of power.  For me the biamping is more about wanting to hear if splitting the bands makes a sonic difference.   When I got the Premier 11A, I was positive that I would ultimately go for the Premier 12 monoblocks for the additional power.  But after reading about bi-amping, I want to try that first.   I guess that I'm too easily distracted by shiney things.

You have to be careful when choosing components for what you are trying to do.  They have to have similiar sensitivity levels so that an increase in volume on the pre will be relative to both.  Please let us know how it turns out - i would be interested in trying this myself in the future.

[Lil Kim Jong-Il]

You have to be careful when choosing components for what you are trying to do.  They have to have similiar sensitivity levels so that an increase in volume on the pre will be relative to both.  Please let us know how it turns out - i would be interested in trying this myself in the future.

In my case, it's two identical stereo amplifiers. 

It's not happening anytime soon but hopefully around the end of the year.