Topic: Church Audio Cardioids Stealth setup and microphone noise

[babaluma]

Hello,
Since about 1 year I have changed my stealth microphone setup from Coresound Binaurals to Churchaudio cardioids. Overall I'm happy with the improved clarity of my recordings, however I do have a problem with rumbling noises, which almost certainly have something to do with the microphone cables running underneath my taper shirt towards the hidden DAT recorder (probably caused by friction when moving or breathing). Lately I go a lot more to quiet concerts, folk, world music etc, so I need to set the preamp to the highest possible sensitivity, which of course also amplifies the noises.
I have noticed, that the Church Audio microphones are very sensitive to picking up noises when the cables are touched or moved, compared to the Coresound Binaurals, which also happen to have thicker cables.
Question: Is this a general problem of cardioids, as compared to binaurals? Or are there cardioids that are less prone to picking up noises from movement or touch of the cables?
I have found a way to fix these brief but frequent passages of microphone rumble, as they usually occur only on 1 channel and are only in the very low frequencies. But it is a lot of work an I'd prefer my recordings with as little noise as possible.

[Dede2002]

Hello,
Since about 1 year I have changed my stealth microphone setup from Coresound Binaurals to Churchaudio cardioids. Overall I'm happy with the improved clarity of my recordings, however I do have a problem with rumbling noises, which almost certainly have something to do with the microphone cables running underneath my taper shirt towards the hidden DAT recorder (probably caused by friction when moving or breathing). Lately I go a lot more to quiet concerts, folk, world music etc, so I need to set the preamp to the highest possible sensitivity, which of course also amplifies the noises.
I have noticed, that the Church Audio microphones are very sensitive to picking up noises when the cables are touched or moved, compared to the Coresound Binaurals, which also happen to have thicker cables.
Question: Is this a general problem of cardioids, as compared to binaurals? Or are there cardioids that are less prone to picking up noises from movement or touch of the cables?
I have found a way to fix these brief but frequent passages of microphone rumble, as they usually occur only on 1 channel and are only in the very low frequencies. But it is a lot of work an I'd prefer my recordings with as little noise as possible.

Yes, cards are more prone to pick up any kind of handling noises. Anyway, it sounds strange. I've never had such problems with my HLSC-1 cards ( and I also run them 007 style). Since stop breathing is not an option  , I assume you're moving too much.
Take care

[dactylus]

Hello,
Since about 1 year I have changed my stealth microphone setup from Coresound Binaurals to Churchaudio cardioids. Overall I'm happy with the improved clarity of my recordings, however I do have a problem with rumbling noises, which almost certainly have something to do with the microphone cables running underneath my taper shirt towards the hidden DAT recorder (probably caused by friction when moving or breathing). Lately I go a lot more to quiet concerts, folk, world music etc, so I need to set the preamp to the highest possible sensitivity, which of course also amplifies the noises.
I have noticed, that the Church Audio microphones are very sensitive to picking up noises when the cables are touched or moved, compared to the Coresound Binaurals, which also happen to have thicker cables.
Question: Is this a general problem of cardioids, as compared to binaurals? Or are there cardioids that are less prone to picking up noises from movement or touch of the cables?
I have found a way to fix these brief but frequent passages of microphone rumble, as they usually occur only on 1 channel and are only in the very low frequencies. But it is a lot of work an I'd prefer my recordings with as little noise as possible.

Did you get the "techflex" option?  The techflex definitely adds to the sensitivity of the mics picking up "handling" noise.

[Belexes]

Chris recommends the thin Mogami cable to decrease handling noise.  That's what I have and have not detected any handling issues when using them.

[Dede2002]

Chris recommends the thin Mogami cable to decrease handling noise.  That's what I have and have not detected any handling issues when using them.

Yes, maybe that's the answer.

[babaluma]

Chris recommends the thin Mogami cable to decrease handling noise.  That's what I have and have not detected any handling issues when using them.

OK, this appears like a clue to follow up on: I checked my order history, I got the microphones in September 2007.
Did Chris always use this Mogami cable, or is it a recent introduction to his micrphone range?

[rsimms3]

Practice.  Sit in your living room and tape your stereo to mimic the same conditions at one of your concerts.  That way you can learn what causes more or less noise in handling/movement.  Just breathing shouldn't be causing that much noise.  Where are you mounting your mics?

[fmaderjr]

Chris recommends the thin Mogami cable to decrease handling noise.  That's what I have and have not detected any handling issues when using them.

Never stealthed with my ST-11's, but just did a stealth job (band taper friendly, but I didn't know about the venue) with ST-14 cards with the thin cables running under my shirt and picked up no rumbling noises whatsoever.

If you have the techflex, isn't it just something that wraps around the thin cables to help keep them from getting tangled? If so, it should be possible to (carefully) remove the techflex. I may be wrong, but I'm sure someone here will know the answer and let us know.

By the way I asked Chris about techflex for my ST-14's and he told me he's no longer advertising it as an option. Too much handling noise. Told me I wouldn't want it.

[Belexes]

By the way I asked Chris about techflex for my ST-14's and he told me he's no longer advertising it as an option. Too much handling noise. Told me I wouldn't want it.

I was thinking on getting the thick wire (not techflex) option and Chris talked me out of that.  He states he won't warranty the mics if you get handling noise with the thick wire/techflex options.

No issues with the thin wire thus far other than they tend to be easy to get tangled up.  I now just keep them in my stealth collar that I use for shows and don't move them out of it.

[babaluma]

Practice.  Sit in your living room and tape your stereo to mimic the same conditions at one of your concerts.  That way you can learn what causes more or less noise in handling/movement.  Just breathing shouldn't be causing that much noise.  Where are you mounting your mics?

That is certainly good advise and I was thinking of doing that just today.
I have created a sound sample with some rumbling noises from my latest recording:

http://www.2shared.com/file/4760613/c97dc265/cohenrumblesample.html

The microphones are colar mounted and held in place with velcro stripes. They are hidden underneath the colar while walking in and out of the venue and I deploy them only after arriving at my seat.
Of course, the velcro would be an obvious possible source for noise, but I have sound samples of when adjusting the microphone position, and they sound different from the noises I'm talking about.
I also don't think I got the techflex cables.

[Church-Audio]

Hello,
Since about 1 year I have changed my stealth microphone setup from Coresound Binaurals to Churchaudio cardioids. Overall I'm happy with the improved clarity of my recordings, however I do have a problem with rumbling noises, which almost certainly have something to do with the microphone cables running underneath my taper shirt towards the hidden DAT recorder (probably caused by friction when moving or breathing). Lately I go a lot more to quiet concerts, folk, world music etc, so I need to set the preamp to the highest possible sensitivity, which of course also amplifies the noises.
I have noticed, that the Church Audio microphones are very sensitive to picking up noises when the cables are touched or moved, compared to the Coresound Binaurals, which also happen to have thicker cables.
Question: Is this a general problem of cardioids, as compared to binaurals? Or are there cardioids that are less prone to picking up noises from movement or touch of the cables?
I have found a way to fix these brief but frequent passages of microphone rumble, as they usually occur only on 1 channel and are only in the very low frequencies. But it is a lot of work an I'd prefer my recordings with as little noise as possible.

Rumbling noises? that's very strange.... what battery are you using with my preamp? Also please feel free to send the mics and preamp back for me to check out. There is virtually no cable noise with my ca-11 mics. Another thing to check out is to remove the capsules from the mics and make sure the bent brass tab is making good contact with capsule pin.

[Church-Audio]

Practice.  Sit in your living room and tape your stereo to mimic the same conditions at one of your concerts.  That way you can learn what causes more or less noise in handling/movement.  Just breathing shouldn't be causing that much noise.  Where are you mounting your mics?

That is certainly good advise and I was thinking of doing that just today.
I have created a sound sample with some rumbling noises from my latest recording:

http://www.2shared.com/file/4760613/c97dc265/cohenrumblesample.html

The microphones are colar mounted and held in place with velcro stripes. They are hidden underneath the colar while walking in and out of the venue and I deploy them only after arriving at my seat.
Of course, the velcro would be an obvious possible source for noise, but I have sound samples of when adjusting the microphone position, and they sound different from the noises I'm talking about.
I also don't think I got the techflex cables.

I would bet that is not handling noise it sounds like air movement are you using my windscreens?? It could also be from the capsules moving slightly against clothing. Its very low in frequency and with cabling noise there is always a high frequency component to the sound this is all low end noise makes me think it could be air movement from an AC or heating or from your own breath It also sounds like a cheap 9 volt battery sometimes they generate low frequency noise in my preamp because of an issue with the way the cells are connected internally.

I have used mogami cable since early 06. Thicker cable BTW usually means more handling noise.

In the end if you cant seem to solve it send them back to me your preamp and your mics and I will look at them for free and fix them for free if the issue is in my gear.

Chris

[dallman]

Hello,
Since about 1 year I have changed my stealth microphone setup from Coresound Binaurals to Churchaudio cardioids. Overall I'm happy with the improved clarity of my recordings, however I do have a problem with rumbling noises, which almost certainly have something to do with the microphone cables running underneath my taper shirt towards the hidden DAT recorder (probably caused by friction when moving or breathing). Lately I go a lot more to quiet concerts, folk, world music etc, so I need to set the preamp to the highest possible sensitivity, which of course also amplifies the noises.
I have noticed, that the Church Audio microphones are very sensitive to picking up noises when the cables are touched or moved, compared to the Coresound Binaurals, which also happen to have thicker cables.
Question: Is this a general problem of cardioids, as compared to binaurals? Or are there cardioids that are less prone to picking up noises from movement or touch of the cables?
I have found a way to fix these brief but frequent passages of microphone rumble, as they usually occur only on 1 channel and are only in the very low frequencies. But it is a lot of work an I'd prefer my recordings with as little noise as possible.

I have a pair of Church Cardioids in a croakie that I wear on my glasses. The wires run out the back of the croakie, down the back of my shirt and up out my waist into my battbox/recorder. I have never heard a peep or rumble. The fact that it is only on one channel would suggest it is not a normal occurance. You may want to do some experimenting to try and isolate what it going on. Perhaps start recording at a high level and as you run your fingers up and down the mics call out the general position of your fingers relative to the caps. This might lead to a way to avoid it or fix the problem.

[babaluma]

I would bet that is not handling noise it sounds like air movement are you using my windscreens?? It could also be from the capsules moving slightly against clothing. Its very low in frequency and with cabling noise there is always a high frequency component to the sound this is all low end noise makes me think it could be air movement from an AC or heating or from your own breath It also sounds like a cheap 9 volt battery sometimes they generate low frequency noise in my preamp because of an issue with the way the cells are connected internally.

I have used mogami cable since early 06. Thicker cable BTW usually means more handling noise.

In the end if you cant seem to solve it send them back to me your preamp and your mics and I will look at them for free and fix them for free if the issue is in my gear.

Chris

Thanks for all the advise, from everybody !
I do have a couple of things to try out now and will report back.
About the batteries: Cheap as in generic / no name? No, they are one of the top brand name batteries (Energizer), but they are standard alkaline 9V. If there is a problem with these, what other type are you recommending? I might be able to get Lithium batteries, as I use them in my DAT recorder.
I also know that the noises come from both microphones, fortunately mostly not at the same time.
Air movement is a definite possibility, I noticed drafts coming from the AC, it made people cough occasionally. I have never used the windscreens, but will try and dig them up for the test. I'll be able to directly monitor the recording process through headphones.

[babaluma]

Well, I ran some tests and came up with a clear result:
My colar velcro setup sucks, any slight movement produces noise, especilly when turning my head, moving my arms, or - worst - when rolling my shoulders. Even when trying to sit completely still , some noise was audibe. After that, I ran a comparison recording, with the microphones held in place by some wire loops.
Guess what: no noise !
Well, I got to explore other setup possibilities now. For me, stealth - well camouflaged setup - is of highest importance, to be able to still enjoy the show while recording. From that point of view my currant setup is tops, but a letdown in the noise department. The default setup for these microphnes appears to be clipping them onto the clothes. But how do you do that without them coming into plain view, for everybody to see, cables and all? I neither want to wear a hat nor croakies. I'm thinking of somehow placing them underneath my arm pits.
I ordered my microphones without the clips. Chris, would you be able to retro-fit them with clips, if I cover the costs for postage, parts and work?