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Author Topic: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50  (Read 19619 times)

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Offline craig_c

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #60 on: March 11, 2010, 08:20:33 PM »
With my Korg MR-1 I can record in DSD and using AudioGate convert to 192/24 for editing in DAW. Even with all the math, rounding errors, SigmaDelta, Foucault transcription errors and quantum interference from n-dimension strings, (pardon my sarcasm, or not), isn't it pretty damn likely that I will have a more usable, higher quality audio file, than if I had recorded with the Sony PCM D-50 at its max of 92/24, and used that as my "RAW" file to edit in the DAW?

Craig

Offline it-goes-to-eleven

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #61 on: March 11, 2010, 08:53:08 PM »
isn't it pretty damn likely that I will have a more usable, higher quality audio file, than if I had recorded with the Sony PCM D-50 at its max of 92/24, and used that as my "RAW" file to edit in the DAW?

I think that would be an overly optimistic assumption, with many variables.  It also depends on how you define "higher quality".  Is that what sounds most pleasing to the ears?

If you asked me whether the 24/192 on the 7xx is better than 24/96 on the 7xx, I wouldn't necessarily assume so.  I'd say you need to test it.  But at least you'd be comparing the same line in, with the same impedance, noise, etc.

How are you getting the output from your contact mics into the recorder?  Have you done any testing with your mr1?

Offline craig_c

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #62 on: March 11, 2010, 09:59:19 PM »
"Higher Quality"... on the one hand I think it is faithfulness to the sound with minimal noise, i.e. "fidelity". But perhaps it IS more at "pleasing to the ears".

For my sampling project "higher quality" means it hasn't been stepped on a lot, so that when I downsample the file I don't get a lot of whooshing, phase shifting, wow-ing.

I think the problem I have is one of taking an analogy too literally. I'm a photographer, a Photoshop specialist for 18 years. I work with RAW files all the time. In my work "higher quality" means "accurate color", "wide gamut color space", "high resolution" (without chroma fringing), "in focus", "proper exposure". The better my RAW file is to start with, the less degrading all of the post production will be to the image. If I have to take a very dark image and process it to pull out detail in the shadows, I may end up with very noticeable banding - sudden jumps in tone value. 

SO, now I'm starting to play with audio. I have been assuming if I start with an audio file that has a much higher frequency and bit-depth than Redbook, when I start to radically resample that file in my DAW that artifacts from that pitch shift will be minimized. What I'm starting to see is that the photo analogy that Korg uses in its "Future Proof Recording", i.e. suggesting that the DSD file is like a RAW photo file, may not be accurate in the way I was thinking about it. This is a kind of category error.

There is a way that the analogy works, but perhaps not to the extent I was thinking of it. -- If DSD moves noise into the 20-24KHz range, and I'm taking a PCM version of that file and shifting the frequency down a lot, then I'll probably be moving noise right down into the range of human hearing.  -- Must test more.

As to the piezo pickups, I'm running them straight into the mic input. They have a surprisingly strong signal. The difficulty I'm running into is finding an adhesive material that makes a very strong contact with a surface, but then will release without destroying the pickup in the process.

Craig
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 01:17:34 AM by craig_c »

Offline headroom

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #63 on: March 12, 2010, 06:18:15 AM »
I asked a few friends about Internet Treads and more....
In the last five years the quality posted in Treads was sinking rapidly, but the amount of words went up. The amount time to follow is eating more and more time and the content is tinner and tinner. Sometimes just stubbern poeple wich did not read or understand the matter takes a lot of space. But with quick replys within minutes - not even think for themself, what was the inherent information. Repeated mantras of belive systems collides.  Some of them want shorcuts instead of going deeper. And o lot of people are in silence still reading all, can hopefully profit  from following it. I think the US Buddy princip (helping from the cracks) in Forums is very good and seldom in Europe. Hope you can take this not to personal.
I act sometimes just as signpost ,sometimes with own arguments/expiriences, infos from musicians wich make recordings for themself. Not looking for a longest penis contest. Hope can help a bit. We can all learn from each other, expanding the understanding and make better recordings.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 07:02:54 AM by headroom »

Offline headroom

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #64 on: March 12, 2010, 06:23:27 AM »

Offline headroom

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #65 on: March 12, 2010, 06:50:11 AM »
Removing aliasing effects in the 20khz-24.1khz band takes care of digital "glare." How would this be accomplished? Better brick-wall filters? Aren't those aggressive digital filters part of the problem?

The answer is in this pdf
« Last Edit: March 12, 2010, 06:52:51 AM by headroom »

Offline Todd R

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #66 on: March 12, 2010, 11:26:39 AM »
isn't it pretty damn likely that I will have a more usable, higher quality audio file, than if I had recorded with the Sony PCM D-50 at its max of 92/24, and used that as my "RAW" file to edit in the DAW?

Craig

If you are a photographer then maybe this analogy will help:

I've got an original Canon digital rebel, with a 6.7MP resolution, among other things.  Say you've got a brand new Canon 50d with 15MP resolution, and a whole lot other improvements over my digital rebel.

I'm shooting with the most expensive Canon L glass that cost thousands.  You're using a 20 year old cheapo Tamron lens you got from Ebay that probably has fungus growing in it.  Isn't it obvious that your photographs will be more high quality and true to life than mine since your camera's sensor is so much better?

Well, perhaps, but I wouldn't even say yes, let alone say it is pretty damn likely.  I have no idea how the analog front end inside the MR1 compares to the analog front end of the Sony D50, but it is a huge leap to say that all of that doesn't matter and the only thing that matters is the DSD conversion vs the PCM conversion.
Mics: Microtech Gefell m20/m21 (nbob/pfa actives), Line Audio CM3, Church CA-11 cards
Preamp:  none <sniff>
Recorders:  Sound Devices MixPre-6, Sony PCM-M10, Zoom H4nPro

Offline headroom

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #67 on: March 12, 2010, 11:50:38 AM »
isn't it pretty damn likely that I will have a more usable, higher quality audio file, than if I had recorded with the Sony PCM D-50 at its max of 92/24, and used that as my "RAW" file to edit in the DAW?

Craig

If you are a photographer then maybe this analogy will help:

I've got an original Canon digital rebel, with a 6.7MP resolution, among other things.  Say you've got a brand new Canon 50d with 15MP resolution, and a whole lot other improvements over my digital rebel.

I'm shooting with the most expensive Canon L glass that cost thousands.  You're using a 20 year old cheapo Tamron lens you got from Ebay that probably has fungus growing in it.  Isn't it obvious that your photographs will be more high quality and true to life than mine since your camera's sensor is so much better?

Well, perhaps, but I wouldn't even say yes, let alone say it is pretty damn likely.  I have no idea how the analog front end inside the MR1 compares to the analog front end of the Sony D50, but it is a huge leap to say that all of that doesn't matter and the only thing that matters is the DSD conversion vs the PCM conversion.

 I see it like this as analogy DSD has a coating without UV Filter and ghosting, less contrastpicture then a PCM lens, Because DSD have lesser resolution in the higher frequencys (Blue UV)

There is also another essential difference; the increase in resolution you achieve from raising the sampling frequency will be frequency dependant. A one-bit system will therefore have high resolution at low frequencies (where the information theoretically is low) and have low resolution at high frequencies (where the information theoretically is high).

By the use of noise shaping of high order, it is possible to increase the resolution at "quite high frequencies" at the expense of resolution at very high frequencies, but only for static, non transient signals. Transient signals will have poor resolution in a one-bit system. If the signal does not endure for a long enough time, the error will not be minimised by the noise shaper of the one bit system.

That's why you can read in documents from Burr Brown (who manufactures both one-bit and multi-bit converters) that you should use multi-bit converters for "waveform synthesis applications requiring very low distortion and noise". They have not written this for nothing.

A one-bit converter (i.e. the DSD system) cannot regenerate a short pulse with stringent form. It will change form from moment to moment. Every identical recorded pulse will show up with a new form.
Just to avoid misunderstandings I want to make a reminder that SACD has higher resolution below 5-10kHz than the CD-system. Exactly where the limit is, where each system (CD or SACD) is better, depends on if you are looking at a static or dynamic signal.

At frequencies below 100-600Hz the SACD-system could theoretically be even better than DVD-Audio, but in reality this is not important. We are talking about so small flaws, far below the hearing threshold, so they can be disregarded. Any specific player however, can be very bad at low frequencies, but not due to the system if SACD or DVD-A is used.
The noise from SACD just above 100kHz is higher in level than most of the treble in the audible range, at least when listening to the majority of acoustical music. It can also be discussed if DSD uses a "high" sampling rate. But apart from that: Yes, without noise shaping it will not work at all and that would be a lot worse. Now it is only a little bit worse than CD in the highest treble.

But why introduce a new super high-resolution system, that is "a little bit worse" than CD? Of course there are advantages when compared to CD also, but the drawbacks of SACD/DSD are completely unnecessary. Shouldn't a new system be better than CD in all aspects?

The noise level in the range above 100kHz is –40dB under maximum signal level (and is thus even visible on an oscilloscope!). The noise is in fact much higher than any possible music signal in the same frequency range. This can be compared to DVD-A where the noise level is –144dB in the whole audible range and also in the ultrasound range.





Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #68 on: March 12, 2010, 12:24:31 PM »
The noise level in the range above 100kHz is –40dB under maximum signal level (and is thus even visible on an oscilloscope!). The noise is in fact much higher than any possible music signal in the same frequency range. This can be compared to DVD-A where the noise level is –144dB in the whole audible range and also in the ultrasound range.

Isn't DVD-A just 24/96?  aka ~2GB per hour, where DSD at 5.6MHz is ~5GB an hour of data.  Not to say that the lenses are equal.  But what < $1K speaker reproduces 100kHz?  Does the DAC on an iPod even try to produce that?  My best headphones cut out at 35kHz.  And most humans hearing cuts out at < 25kHz.  Who cares what's 100kHz and up?  Bat scientists?  Okay so DSD isn't best suited for bat science / research.  It still makes a pretty good CD and has a decent amount of dynamic range for those who like recording at > 16 bit.

Offline headroom

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2010, 04:24:01 AM »
The noise level in the range above 100kHz is –40dB under maximum signal level (and is thus even visible on an oscilloscope!). The noise is in fact much higher than any possible music signal in the same frequency range. This can be compared to DVD-A where the noise level is –144dB in the whole audible range and also in the ultrasound range.

Isn't DVD-A just 24/96?  aka ~2GB per hour, where DSD at 5.6MHz is ~5GB an hour of data.  Not to say that the lenses are equal.  But what < $1K speaker reproduces 100kHz?  Does the DAC on an iPod even try to produce that?  My best headphones cut out at 35kHz.  And most humans hearing cuts out at < 25kHz.  Who cares what's 100kHz and up?  Bat scientists?  Okay so DSD isn't best suited for bat science / research.  It still makes a pretty good CD and has a decent amount of dynamic range for those who like recording at > 16 bit.

You miss the point, it is about the noise in that region not the music signal. This high frequency noise  intermodulate the audible signal and this is one problem. The other is, that this noise is not static, the strong feedback loop DA / DSD is not the cure.

Offline Shadow_7

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Re: Korg Mr-1 vs Sony PCM D-50
« Reply #70 on: March 16, 2010, 12:04:58 AM »
The noise level in the range above 100kHz is –40dB under maximum signal level (and is thus even visible on an oscilloscope!). The noise is in fact much higher than any possible music signal in the same frequency range. This can be compared to DVD-A where the noise level is –144dB in the whole audible range and also in the ultrasound range.

Isn't DVD-A just 24/96?  aka ~2GB per hour, where DSD at 5.6MHz is ~5GB an hour of data.  Not to say that the lenses are equal.  But what < $1K speaker reproduces 100kHz?  Does the DAC on an iPod even try to produce that?  My best headphones cut out at 35kHz.  And most humans hearing cuts out at < 25kHz.  Who cares what's 100kHz and up?  Bat scientists?  Okay so DSD isn't best suited for bat science / research.  It still makes a pretty good CD and has a decent amount of dynamic range for those who like recording at > 16 bit.

You miss the point, it is about the noise in that region not the music signal. This high frequency noise  intermodulate the audible signal and this is one problem. The other is, that this noise is not static, the strong feedback loop DA / DSD is not the cure.

What exactly is to be cured?  Data that's going to be effectively thrown out for all practical purposes?  A little like washing your trash before taking it to the curb, don't you think?  It's not like any of the other edits we do in post is any less destructive.  MP3 anyone?

 

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