Topic: a cappella vocal performance: Schoeps MKxx or AKG 414 > V3

[Brian Skalinder]

All,

I'm recording my father's amateur a capella group's annual Christmas performance in what I've heard is a gorgeous sounding venue:  Chicago's St. Mary of Perpetual Help.  A pic of the venue from the website:



Unfortunately, won't be hearing the organ, but the a capella vocal performance in a gorgeous sounding environment promises loads of fun.  Today, in a different venue - though still a gorgeous sounding church - the resident audio geek in the vocal group set up around 6 rows back, DFC, about 7' up:  Audio Technica AT4051 (XY-90º) > Mackie MicroSeries MS1202 (I think) > Sony PCM-R300.  I imagine I'll run on his stand (or him on mine) to minimize sight-line issues and visual clutter.

Split / Jecklin disc omnis probably aren't in the cards at the moment due to sight-line issues and lack of Jecklin disc.  So, assuming same running conditions as above - ~6 rows back, DFC, 7' up - I'm leaning towards:

Schoeps MK21 (NOS) > KC5 > CMC6 > V3
The open, natural sound of the subcards really appeals to me given the quality performance space.

or

AKG C 414 B-ULS (M-S) > V3
The ability to mix down the M-S after-the-fact appeals to me so I can control the stereo image given I'm recording in an unfamiliar space and a new music style.

Which would you choose?  Or would you set up completely differently given the gear available?

MK21 / MK4 / MK41 > KC5/CMC6
AKG C 414 B-ULS
V3

I expect a similar crowd to this afternoon:  quiet, attentive, polite.  FWIW, I'll have around 30 minutes of sound-check / rehearsal time in the venue to adjust positioning, mic config, etc.  So I may schlep all my gear down, but I'd like to have an idea of what I want to run before getting there.

FYI, I'm trying to track down a loaner V3 , but am not counting on it. 

[John R]

i would do 414 m/s.  is your dad the big guy with the beard?

[Brian Skalinder]

i would do 414 m/s.  is your dad the big guy with the beard?

Thanks for the input, JR.  And yup - that's him. 

[zhianosatch]

and his sister's not too far away, is she?
and a brother or an uncle! ha!

[Tim]

gotta agree, go with the akg's if their size won't be an issue... 21s nos would be my second choice

[goose]

This situation sounds similar to what I experience when I record classical music with Moke.

We record in very good sounding venues with attentive, low noise crowds.  I would, given my experience on the few trips with Moke, use the subcards over the mid-side. 

I believe the 414s can do sub-card as well, if switched in between the other patterns.

I think omni or subcard would sound best in an ideal venue/audience situation.

Just my two cents.  Fyi - I will be using the AKG extension cable omnis (ck2x) this Sunday for a recording with Moke.

Regardless, enjoy!

(Moke may have some input on this as well.)

[Brian Skalinder]

Goose - The new B-XLS have the sub-card setting, but unfortunately the older 414 B-ULS do not.

Decisions, decisions...

[Brian Skalinder]

are they going to be in the organ loft, or at the lower level?

Lower level, just in front of the entrance to the altar area (dunno the proper name).

quality acoustics in a room begs for Blumlein, and that center aisle is a great advantage to you!

Hadn't thought of Blumlein!  My only concern with Blumlein is picking up too much audience shuffle / sniffle / noise.  But I *love* all the Blumlein recordings I've heard.  Thanks for making my decision more difficult, Moke. 

A more diffuse field sounds alot better than getting too close, though I wouldn't go any deeper than 2nd or 3rd row, because of the audience noise factor.

I'll chat with Dave, the resident audio geek in the group, about running a bit closer than ~6 rows back.  There is *some* concern about sight-lines and such, but I think I can talk him into moving up.  What happened yesterday:  no one in the audience sat in rows 1-6.  Now, I'm sure some of them realized it was probably too close, but most I suspect didn't sit up front because they saw the mics and somehow thought it was off-limits.  If we move the mics forward a couple rows, the crowd'll move forward a few rows, too.

The group sets up as two rows:  first row of 6 across, and second row of 5 across - total spread L to R is probably 15-17'.  As you said, Moke, I don't wanna get too close.  While I don't want to have the sops/altos on the right hand side belting into the right-facing mic, and the tenors/basses on the left, I don't want to get so far back I lose some of the stereo imaging of their location.  I'll have an opportunity to wander around a bit during rehearsal, so I oughta be able to pick a good spot.

This is all very different from taping in my known haunts / environment / location / pattern!  Fun...   

Or,.... go rear of hall, and crank your stand up if you want to capture all of the hall.

Maybe on the next one, I think I'll sick closer to the source on this one.

I'm very likely going to go rear-of-hall with Goose on sunday, beause we will be recording a brass chamber ensemble.

Sounds like fun!

[Kwonfidelity]

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

[Brian Skalinder]

BTW, thanks to Jonny's loaner V3 (you da man!), I'm able to run both 414s and Schoeps.     I'm sure the group will run their own setup like last time:  XY-90º.  So right now I'm thinking 414s Blumlein and MK21s NOS.

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

In front of them...as in, *directly* in front of them?  In casual conversation, before we discussed my recording them, I suggested moving their mics wellllll up front, basically directly in front of them.  Initial reaction wasn't real positive due to sightline concerns.  Though if I keep it below shoulder-level it may fly.  Question is, who's shoulder-level - heights range from 6'4 to 4'10!  Though that close, I'm concerned about picking up exaggerated L/R imaging given the ~15-17' spread from one side of the group to the other.

If I can get up that close, what do you recommend with mic height of, say...4'?

[Tim]

way to go Jonny... very nice of you.

[Kwonfidelity]

BTW, thanks to Jonny's loaner V3 (you da man!), I'm able to run both 414s and Schoeps.     I'm sure the group will run their own setup like last time:  XY-90º.  So right now I'm thinking 414s Blumlein and MK21s NOS.

Sorry if I missed it.   Any problems with setting it up in front of them instead of in the rows?  (As long as you can get it in and out quickly, one stand, etc, etc)

In front of them...as in, *directly* in front of them?  In casual conversation, before we discussed my recording them, I suggested moving their mics wellllll up front, basically directly in front of them.  Initial reaction wasn't real positive due to sightline concerns.  Though if I keep it below shoulder-level it may fly.  Question is, who's shoulder-level - heights range from 6'4 to 4'10!  Though that close, I'm concerned about picking up exaggerated L/R imaging given the ~15-17' spread from one side of the group to the other.

If I can get up that close, what do you recommend with mic height of, say...4'?

If you can get that close you can still pick up anything they sing really well at waist level, I've done it successfully with all type of setups (m/s, nos, etc).  If it's a hollow stage I would let them now not to thump the stage with their feet (some vocalists do to keep the rhythm).  If they have to just use a cut filter(cut1) or roll off below 60/70hz.  M/S, NOS, whatever at that distance.  A stereo config would be the best compact size to set up/down.  I would go NOS MK21s(but what else would you expect from me), I'll even send you the bar for the actives if you need one.  If the separation is too much/little, take it into a daw and mix it down to what you prefer, but at 15' spread, nos (30cm) you should get it all nicely.

You'd be surprised what they'll let you do, especially if you can get the group to back you on it.  Keep the deck away where they can't see it.  When they set up, crouch down, set it up, press record, get out of the way, then break down just as fast.  Once they see the professionality you're in like flynn for any future projects...

[Brian Skalinder]

This is a blumlein rigging directly in front of the vocalist (tallest, nearest music stand). It was for a single vocalist, bass, and  was very, very solidly represented vocals, almost 'board like, save for the rear lobes capturing the audience response.
This was in the center aisle, 1st row dfc, and about 4' high (that is my big stand, totally closed up).

Cool, Moke, thanks for the tips and pics.  I think you've talked me into Blumlein with the 414s, now the question is where I can set up.  If you achieved good results with the stand topping out at 4'...hhmmmm...I think I can probably convince them to let me run way up front if I limit the height.  And yeah, you're absolutely right on the LD's vertical config's sightline-friendliness - not much of a footprint at all.

If you can get that close you can still pick up anything they sing really well at waist level, I've done it successfully with all type of setups (m/s, nos, etc).  If it's a hollow stage I would let them now not to thump the stage with their feet (some vocalists do to keep the rhythm).  M/S, NOS, whatever at that distance.  A stereo config would be the best compact size to set up/down.  I would go NOS MK21s(but what else would you expect from me), I'll even send you the bar for the actives if you need one.  If the separation is too much/little, take it into a daw and mix it down to what you prefer, but at 15' spread, nos (30cm) you should get it all nicely.

You'd be surprised what they'll let you do, especially if you can get the group to back you on it.  Keep the deck away where they can't see it.  When they set up, crouch down, set it up, press record, get out of the way, then break down just as fast.  Once they see the professionality you're in like flynn for any future projects...

Yeah, big surprise on the MK21 recommendation.    I'm partial to 'em myself.  Thanks for the NOS-bar offer, but I already have one - love it, thanks for your work making those bars!  Now I need to flesh out my ORTF/DIN/NOS bars with a DINA bar.

Glad to hear you guys think it'll be alright if I run up close, even if a bit low.  I think as long as I don't jut up above the music stands they'll each have in front of them, they won't have a problem with running up close.  This past Sunday, some were on risers topped with carpet, others on carpeted steps leading to the choir area of the church in front of the altar.  I didn't notice any foot-tapping, though I'll keep an eye and ear out at rehearsal.

A couple more pics of the place.  I didn't realize I previously posted a rear-view pic of the space.  Here's a better front-looking pic (so you can actually see where they'll perform) down the aisle towards the altar.  The group likely will set up in the space between the front row of parish seating and the railing entrance to the choir and altar area:



And a side view:



And for anyone who's interested, some additional pics here:  http://www.planet99.com/chicago/tour/11877x.html

[Kwonfidelity]

Blum would work awesome, too!  And with those pics, no problems running lower than waist - marble floor will work to your advantage in capturing great sound...

I'm addicted to projects like these...

[F.O.Bean]

sounds like a fun project brian