Topic: Recording levels - Am I doing something wrong?

[bogusjack]

I have taped a few shows in the past 2 years and I always here the same complaints from my friends or those that have gotten shows from me in trade.

The complaint is - "Your recording is not loud enough.  I have to crank it up when I listen to it"

Lets start with my rig and recording level.  I use SP-CMC-8 cardiods into a battery box into line in (not mic) to a Marantz PMD-620.  I keep the levels peaking during recording at -6db.  I record in stealth mode only so after the I set the level during the first song I'm done looking again.

Once home I put the file into Audacity.  Before I begin splitting the tracks I first amplify the recording to increase the sound to 0db.  I typically choose the option to actually go to +1db and take the clipping since the clipping is generally because of someone clapping near me.  The music is not clipping.  Then, I begin splitting the file into tracks.

Do any of you see where I may be going wrong? 

Do any of you use hard limiting in Audacity?  Is this the better way to go?

Any other advice to get more punch into my recordings would be greatly appreciated.

[cybergaloot]

A: They are probably comparing them to commercial compressed audio. Not compressed file size but compressed dynamic range. Search Google for "loudness wars to see what that's all about.
B: A lot of the time the peaks you see are cymbal hits and they can be clipped without much noticeable loss. Click the "allow clipping" box when you amplify in Audacity. Always save your original file as is just in case and a little trial and error will let you know how much you can clip.
C: Explain to your friends where the volume knob is on their stereo!
D: You might want to hunt down the discussion about "parallel compression" here on TS. I haven't tried it yet myself but looks to be a way to get the volume up without squashing the dynamic range so much.

[page]

Either limit or manually edit the clapping until it isn't louder than the music peaks.  This will have no effect on the music as the clapping is probably much louder.

This. I've used the hard limiter in audacity before, you can get a good 2db of limiting in the music area before it becomes noticeable, especially if you use the wet value as something other than full on.

Second, don't just let it clip, whether you can hear it is dependent upon two things; first, that you know what to listen for, second, you have gear that reveals that. Given the same clipped content, some DACs won't reveal the clip.

[brad.bartels]

Agree with all the comments. A lot depends on the levels of the music compared to the crowd or the loudest instantaneous noise. If you just amplify to 0 and you have a couple of large spikes in amplitude relative to the rest of the show (or the crowd noise / clapping between songs is significantly louder than the music), your levels for the vast majority of the show may be well below 0. I'll usually go through and eliminate all of the large peaks (assuming they are crowd noise or clapping, etc.) or just pick the loudest part of the "music" and see how much amplification will put that at 0 (or -0.1 / -0.2 dB) and amplify the show by that much, allowing clipping. Then hard limit it so you get rid of the peaks over 0 (assuming they're crowd noise, clapping, etc.). Alternatively, you can manually lower the crowd noise using (negative) amplification or volume envelope and then normalize or amplify to close to 0 dB. If you want to post a raw sample, folks can probably help you out more based on the sample - would probably have to be most / all of the show though.

[newplanet7]

Once home I put the file into Audacity.  Before I begin splitting the tracks I first amplify the recording to increase the sound to 0db.  I typically choose the option to actually go to +1db and take the clipping since the clipping is generally because of someone clapping near me.  The music is not clipping.  Then, I begin splitting the file into tracks.

This is definitely the issue. Not sure what type of art you are taping, but when I tape jazz or anything that is musically dynamic,
I always have the cymbal crash and or clapping problem that clips when the main music isn't close.
It could be 5db difference ala BAD PLUS/Dave King/MMW
Now, some folks have different ways of achieving the relatively same result. I use a slower way instead of a hard limiter
like jon was talking about below.It takes longer but I feel as though I have more precise control over it.
Plus I don't mind doing it. So it's a win win situation for me.

Also, I would tell your friends they are a product of the LOUDNESS WARS that most labels are using today, at the expense of
musical dynamics. Please search on taperssection for the topic. Basically, once the music is recorded in studios, it's getting
the shit stomped out of it and compressed so that the wave form looks like a stick of butter. No spikes, no definition, no dynamics.
Here is a great little article. http://musicmachinery.com/2009/03/23/the-loudness-war/  . Also, and surprisingly, a thorough article from wiki!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

To equate it to something you maybe familiar with, it's like buying a gram of blow and 3/4 of it is inositol or glucose.
Just sayin' from my late teens early 20's and stuff.

Either limit or manually edit the clapping until it isn't louder than the music peaks.  This will have no effect on the music as the clapping is probably much louder.

[acidjack]

Though some here will frown on it, one way you can make the recording a bit louder is to use the HARD LIMITER function in Audacity, which effectively flattens the peaks above a certain limit you set.  You have to be careful with this, as if not used sparingly, you will get distortion, but to knock a couple dB of hard snare hits or whatever, I find it's fine.

Select all Audio, go to AMPLIFY and see what you need to amplify to 0.  Say it says 5.6.

Add a couple dB to that and then HARD LIMIT to that value. So in this case, -7.6.

Then, after hard limiter has run, amplify to -0.1dB.  As I said, you have to be careful about this, and 2dB is only a very general guide, but I have found that usually doesn't do any damage and gives you a bit more volume.  With clapping, especially between-song clapping during a show, I'm less worried about hard limiting it, even if it distorts a touch, since the clapping isn't music anyway.

But really, how hard is it to turn up a volume knob?

[page]

But really, how hard is it to turn up a volume knob?

For fan/amateur productions or where you're turning out 24bit, I totally agree.

It's when you're making something more akin to a product, in that I'm dealing with a set of expectations that I can't do much to control, but my evaluation is still dependent upon. To me, the degree of limiting (or compression, EQ, etc) is dependent upon not only what I'm going to be doing with it (web samples, personal listening, professional production), but the target audience.

What we really need is it to become accepted practice to have multiple mixes produced for a given album; a "Car/Radio mix" and an "Audiophile mix."

[acidjack]

But really, how hard is it to turn up a volume knob?

For fan/amateur productions or where you're turning out 24bit, I totally agree.

It's when you're making something more akin to a product, in that I'm dealing with a set of expectations that I can't do much to control, but my evaluation is still dependent upon. To me, the degree of limiting (or compression, EQ, etc) is dependent upon not only what I'm going to be doing with it (web samples, personal listening, professional production), but the target audience.

What we really need is it to become accepted practice to have multiple mixes produced for a given album; a "Car/Radio mix" and an "Audiophile mix."

I was also being a little facetious, of course.  It's one thing to turn up a volume knob listening to vinyl or even a CD where you are listening straight through. But let's face it, many people are listening on portable devices like an iPhone or iPod and maybe listening on random play more; in those circumstances, changing the volume is annoying. Also, it's annoying if you are listening to something with "low" volume and then get a jarring blast of high volume from the next track - again, less of a problem with CDs/vinyl.

[page]

But let's face it, many people are listening on portable devices like an iPhone or iPod and maybe listening on random play more; in those circumstances, changing the volume is annoying. Also, it's annoying if you are listening to something with "low" volume and then get a jarring blast of high volume from the next track - again, less of a problem with CDs/vinyl.

replaygain tags and players that respect them would solve the shuffle problem, but that's a different can of worms. point noted.

[hoppedup]

I had a friend who complained about this. He keeps a lot of shows on his ipod and lets it shuffle between studio stuff and live shows and has great fluctuation in levels. I told him to stop listening to studio recorded music.

I usually zoom in on the old db meter in Audacity and use the hard limiter to knock down any big spikes. I usually try to listen to a few seconds around these spikes to make sure I'm just working with applause or big drum hits. Then I chop it. The hard limit just depends on where my levels are on that recording.

I have taped artists that have a lot of dynamic range in a show. I've been tempted (and have even attempted) to normalize/amplify certain passages of quiet talking between songs or quieter songs. It turned out to be too much work for someone with a backlog like mine.

[acidjack]

But let's face it, many people are listening on portable devices like an iPhone or iPod and maybe listening on random play more; in those circumstances, changing the volume is annoying. Also, it's annoying if you are listening to something with "low" volume and then get a jarring blast of high volume from the next track - again, less of a problem with CDs/vinyl.

replaygain tags and players that respect them would solve the shuffle problem, but that's a different can of worms. point noted.

Yup, that is one way to help. With the files I post in MP3 on nyctaper, I first import everything into iTunes and boost the output volume by a lot (lately I've found nearly 100% isn't too much).  That puts the live show volume about at what heavily compressed modern commercial music is, assuming the listener/downloader's player respects those settings. 

[page]

But let's face it, many people are listening on portable devices like an iPhone or iPod and maybe listening on random play more; in those circumstances, changing the volume is annoying. Also, it's annoying if you are listening to something with "low" volume and then get a jarring blast of high volume from the next track - again, less of a problem with CDs/vinyl.

replaygain tags and players that respect them would solve the shuffle problem, but that's a different can of worms. point noted.

Yup, that is one way to help. With the files I post in MP3 on nyctaper, I first import everything into iTunes and boost the output volume by a lot (lately I've found nearly 100% isn't too much).  That puts the live show volume about at what heavily compressed modern commercial music is, assuming the listener/downloader's player respects those settings.

as a side note, is there an easy way to convert ReplayGain tags to Soundcheck tags used by Apple?

* page looks toward Team Mac thread

[Gutbucket]

Hard enough to get people to understand and use ReplayGain at all.  Do I understand correctly that Apple has their own seperate standard?
Can't see this working out well.

[page]

Hard enough to get people to understand and use ReplayGain at all.  Do I understand correctly that Apple has their own seperate standard?
Can't see this working out well.

itunNORM values. 

Anyway, at least they use the same values, it's just the comment tag that is different. Could be worse, we could be converting values between dbu and dbv or something like that...

How to generate/convert RG values to Apple normalized values (for windows): http://trevinchow.com/blog/2009/10/25/normalize-volume-of-mp3-songs-for-use-in-itunes/

My understanding is if your player is conscious of the values, then it will use them. Any clarification?

[bogusjack]

AcidJack:

I performed your suggestion of hard limiter / amplify last night and it work great!  Thanks for the advice.

Though some here will frown on it, one way you can make the recording a bit louder is to use the HARD LIMITER function in Audacity, which effectively flattens the peaks above a certain limit you set.  You have to be careful with this, as if not used sparingly, you will get distortion, but to knock a couple dB of hard snare hits or whatever, I find it's fine.

Select all Audio, go to AMPLIFY and see what you need to amplify to 0.  Say it says 5.6.

Add a couple dB to that and then HARD LIMIT to that value. So in this case, -7.6.

Then, after hard limiter has run, amplify to -0.1dB.  As I said, you have to be careful about this, and 2dB is only a very general guide, but I have found that usually doesn't do any damage and gives you a bit more volume.  With clapping, especially between-song clapping during a show, I'm less worried about hard limiting it, even if it distorts a touch, since the clapping isn't music anyway.

But really, how hard is it to turn up a volume knob?

[rjp]

Another technique you might consider for dealing with loud clapping is to duck the level down to something more reasonable during the applause. An approach that I use now in Audacity is to create an extra track containing a steady tone, mute it, and use the Auto Duck function on a selected section of audio. It can be a bit fiddly, but I'm liking the results better than chopping off the peaks of the applause, especially so when it's much louder than the music.

[a_doubt]

Thanks to all of you, I found some good advice in this topic 

(...)
To me, the degree of limiting (or compression, EQ, etc) is dependent upon not only what I'm going to be doing with it (web samples, personal listening, professional production), but the target audience.

What we really need is it to become accepted practice to have multiple mixes produced for a given album; a "Car/Radio mix" and an "Audiophile mix."

This is what someone suggested to me in another discussion in another forum. I did not like the idea at first because of the doubled file size and space for it, but after thinking about it again (and while reading here), I think it's a good idea.

[F.O.Bean]

if my recording is dull, or not too loud, i normalize to 0db and then add +2db or so in wavelab 6

[page]

if my recording is dull, or not too loud, i normalize to 0db and then add +2db or so in wavelab 6

[F.O.Bean]

if my recording is dull, or not too loud, i normalize to 0db and then add +2db or so in wavelab 6

Hey, it works

[Gutbucket]

if my recording is dull, or not too loud, i normalize to 0db and then add +2db or so in wavelab 6

Hey, it works

jives with the thread title.