Topic: bassy recordings

[nadnerbttel]

Hey, for some reason I am prone to always getting much more bass in my live recordings than I want, and usually ending up turning it down up to 30dB on the equalizer when I edit the songs.  I use a Sony RH10 recorder, a SP battery box and SP-CMC8 omni mics run through the line-in.  My question is: does it make a difference in the final product whether you use the bass-roll off as you are recording or if you just turn down the bass with an EQ after the recording?  Also, does anyone have any suggestions as to why the recordings are so bassy to begin with?  Thanks!

[Scooter]

if you run the rolloff while you're recording, you're stuck with the results.  whereas if you do the rolloff in post, you can adjust to your liking.  I never run the rolloff, and do all my eq in post, but to each his own...

[RebelRebel]

I prefer to do the roll off in the signal path rather than in post. Any processing you do in the DAW is going to take something away from the source material.. Try to get it as good as it can get before it hits the recorder, the less processing the better.

Omnis will have more low end(generally) than other polar patterns, and boomy rock clubs dont help that. Get intimate with your gear and know what roll off works for you.

[easy jim]

I prefer to do the roll off in the signal path rather than in post. Any processing you do in the DAW is going to take something away from the source material.. Try to get it as good as it can get before it hits the recorder, the less processing the better.

Omnis will have more low end(generally) than other polar patterns, and boomy rock clubs dont help that. Get intimate with your gear and know what roll off works for you.

Exactly.  Omnis do not generally sound good in small clubs.  Cardioids would be better.  I have the Sound Prof's mics with the cardioid and hyper-cardioid capsules.  I have never found either type of these caps to be too bassy and never use the roll off with them; in fact, they tend to be very bright sounding and can capture really nicely what sounds like rumbly, bassy crap at the show.  If the omnis are all you have, however, I would roll off and try and get it right the initially as Teddy wrote.  Depending on the sound of the venue/mics/room mix, you may want to roll off anywhere between ~ 60 - 105hz.  ~80hz is a good initial setting to try.

[Church-Audio]

I prefer to do the roll off in the signal path rather than in post. Any processing you do in the DAW is going to take something away from the source material.. Try to get it as good as it can get before it hits the recorder, the less processing the better.

Omnis will have more low end(generally) than other polar patterns, and boomy rock clubs dont help that. Get intimate with your gear and know what roll off works for you.

Exactly I would rather roll off a bit before post. If you took too much out you can always add it back in during post. But if you have too much bass and it is distorting. No amount of post will fix that, it's better to be safe with your levels and reduce bass, then it is to have too much bass and a distorted recording that can not be fixed IMO.


Ps remember that if you use a bass roll off during the recording, all of the bass is still there on tape it’s just reduced in level. Some simple eq can put it all back, if it turns out to be a mistake. Just use a good parametric eq plug-in or graphic eq if you do not have a parametric eq, and you will be fine.

The reason why Omni is not a good choice for boomy rooms is simple Bass is non directional, just like your Omni mic. So the Omni mics tend to pickup more bass, because they are not dependant on position to do so. Cardioid mics are more directional if you get into a null in a room, IE: A place where there is some standing waves (less bass) then your cardioid mic will sound bright, but not the Omni it will be bassy where ever you use it. In a small room where bass bounces everywhere it can be a real problem.




Chris Church

[nadnerbttel]

Thanks for all the tips.  When recording outside at Bonnaroo next weekend will I have the same problem with omnis, or is this problem limited to indoor venues?

[Chuck]

Omni's can sound very good outdoors. They tend to be less suseptable to wind and capture more bass, which is a good thing outdoors.

[nadnerbttel]

What would be the best cardioids to get for the CMC8 when most of the recordings I do are in medium sized clubs (subcards, cards, or hypercards)?  Also, do I need the adapter from sound professionals to attach a set of cardioids?  Thanks!

[Church-Audio]

Regular cardioids are the best for all around use. I don't mean to fluff my own gear but I do have a 20% off sale for my cardioid mics right now to all T.S members they sell for $129.99 a pair after the discount they are $104.00 + shipping.( for $129.99) You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO.  Please check out Sound professional mics as well they also sell great mics PM me if you want me to send you a sound sample of our mics in use. Please provide me with an email address to send the file. aprox 3 meg.


Chris Church

What would be the best cardioids to get for the CMC8 when most of the recordings I do are in medium sized clubs (subcards, cards, or hypercards)?  Also, do I need the adapter from sound professionals to attach a set of cardioids?  Thanks!

[rokpunk]

I don't mean to fluff my own gear but <snip>
You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO. 

For someone not trying to "fluff your own gear", that's a pretty bold statement. I'd imagine if there is no better sounding cardioid mic on the market, you sure could make a ton of dough selling the patent to Neumann.

/IMO

[easy jim]

I don't mean to fluff my own gear but <snip>
You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO. 

For someone not trying to "fluff your own gear", that's a pretty bold statement. I'd imagine if there is no better sounding cardioid mic on the market, you sure could make a ton of dough selling the patent to Neumann.

/IMO

I'm sure he means by comparison to others at the price point in question. 

We should expect anyone who makes/sells their own gear to be naturally inclined to fluff it a bit.  However, I'd say the statement calls for the posting of comparsion samples with similar mics at the same rough price point (i.e. the Audio Technica mics used by the Sound Prof's, or Core Sounds Cardioid mics, etc.)  Then, we can all make up our own mind. 

[Humbug]

What would be the best cardioids to get for the CMC8 when most of the recordings I do are in medium sized clubs (subcards, cards, or hypercards)?  Also, do I need the adapter from sound professionals to attach a set of cardioids?  Thanks!

Originally these were sold as follows:

ES943 body + adaptor + AT853 caps (large)

The latest models are:

ES943 body + AT943 caps (small, no adaptor)

So its up to you - you can buy AT943 card caps, or an adaptor + AT853 caps

I've used both, sound is similar, but my personal choice is AT853 caps, I think they sound nicer.
Really depends on availability of capsules. I use Card capsules 95% of the time, and Hypers for the larger venues / arenas / outdoor stadiums.

I think I got that right, and I hope the above was clear, if not, pm me.

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

ps Chris..you went from occasional visits to fluffing your gear constantly - we've got the mesage now

pps has anyone done a direct shoot out between Chris's cardioids and AT853s (ie running them in parallel)? If so, I'd like to know the results. I did offer to do this a few months ago..

[Church-Audio]

Read what I said for $129.99 there is no better mic on the market I will gladly send you a sample. I am not talking about $200 mics or $1000 mics just mics that cost $129.99 Sorry for the confusion.

Chris Church

I don't mean to fluff my own gear but <snip>
You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO. 

For someone not trying to "fluff your own gear", that's a pretty bold statement. I'd imagine if there is no better sounding cardioid mic on the market, you sure could make a ton of dough selling the patent to Neumann.

/IMO

[Church-Audio]

Not a problem please tell me where to send the sample. I have one that has not been changed at all no eq no compression. I would be more then glad to send the sample to anyone that asks for it.

Chris Church

I don't mean to fluff my own gear but <snip>
You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO. 

For someone not trying to "fluff your own gear", that's a pretty bold statement. I'd imagine if there is no better sounding cardioid mic on the market, you sure could make a ton of dough selling the patent to Neumann.

/IMO

I'm sure he means by comparison to others at the price point in question. 

We should expect anyone who makes/sells their own gear to be naturally inclined to fluff it a bit.  However, I'd say the statement calls for the posting of comparsion samples with similar mics at the same rough price point (i.e. the Audio Technica mics used by the Sound Prof's, or Core Sounds Cardioid mics, etc.)  Then, we can all make up our own mind. 

[Church-Audio]

Come on I do not fluff my gear all the time. That is not a fair statement look at most post history, there is very few cases of fluffing. I am proud of my mics, I guess I just want people to try them, but I do give out way more advice and help then I try to sell my products. It’s hard finding a balance. I guess I just could not resist I know, I will take some flac for it.

As you can see with my tickets I am negative now I am really more interested in helping then selling. I have all the sales I can handle right now. I love you guys, I love talking about audio gear and trying to help people when I can, that’s where I am at. I used to come on here and constantly try to sell my gear, now I don't do that. I made a post in the eBay sales a few days ago about a sale I was having but, that's the place to do it and I can not be faulted for giving T.S members 20% off.

I really am glad to be here, and I don't really want to upset people. I am very opinionated and love a good debate. Not because I think I am right but because I like the challenge of debating my point with someone, it’s about passion for audio with me it’s never personal.

What would be the best cardioids to get for the CMC8 when most of the recordings I do are in medium sized clubs (subcards, cards, or hypercards)?  Also, do I need the adapter from sound professionals to attach a set of cardioids?  Thanks!

Originally these were sold as follows:

ES943 body + adaptor + AT853 caps (large)

The latest models are:

ES943 body + AT943 caps (small, no adaptor)

So its up to you - you can buy AT943 card caps, or an adaptor + AT853 caps

I've used both, sound is similar, but my personal choice is AT853 caps, I think they sound nicer.
Really depends on availability of capsules. I use Card capsules 95% of the time, and Hypers for the larger venues / arenas / outdoor stadiums.

I think I got that right, and I hope the above was clear, if not, pm me.

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

ps Chris..you went from occasional visits to fluffing your gear constantly - we've got the mesage now

pps has anyone done a direct shoot out between Chris's cardioids and AT853s (ie running them in parallel)? If so, I'd like to know the results. I did offer to do this a few months ago..

[Humbug]

As you can see with my tickets I am negative now I am really more interested in helping then selling. I have all the sales I can handle right now. I love you guys, I love talking about audio gear and trying to help people when I can, that’s where I am at. I used to come on here and constantly try to sell my gear, now I don't do that. I made a post in the eBay sales a few days ago about a sale I was having but, that's the place to do it and I can not be faulted for giving T.S members 20% off.

Chris, OK, heres a ticket to put you positive again. You take gentle windups very graciously.

From my point of view, I'm just happy taping, I understand little about the electronics and physics of taping, which is the reason I like reading the technical stuff that often gets posted here, in the hope that I'll learn a little.

I'm curious though...a sound sample can sound great even from a very inexpensive mic, providing the taper is in the sweet spot, and the sound in the venue is spot on. What you really need is an independant comparison..

[rokpunk]

Read what I said for $129.99 there is no better mic on the market I will gladly send you a sample. I am not talking about $200 mics or $1000 mics just mics that cost $129.99 Sorry for the confusion.

Chris Church

I don't mean to fluff my own gear but <snip>
You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO. 

For someone not trying to "fluff your own gear", that's a pretty bold statement. I'd imagine if there is no better sounding cardioid mic on the market, you sure could make a ton of dough selling the patent to Neumann.

/IMO

Actually, what you said was "I don't mean to fluff my own gear but I do have a 20% off sale for my cardioid mics right now to all T.S members they sell for $129.99 a pair after the discount they are $104.00 + shipping.( for $129.99) You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO."

Perhaps what you meant to say is "I don't mean to fluff my own gear but I do have a 20% off sale for my cardioid mics right now to all T.S members they sell for $129.99 a pair after the discount they are $104.00 + shipping.( for $129.99) You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic _in that price range_, IMO."

[nadnerbttel]

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused. Currently I own a SP-SPSB-6 battery box. Is this a 3-wire battery box? And if not could you direct me in the way of a really good, small phantom power unit or a 3-wire battery box? Thanks.

[Church-Audio]

I thought I did make it pretty clear, but just in case I thought I would edit my orginal post and add the glowing highlight.

Regular cardioids are the best for all around use. I don't mean to fluff my own gear but I do have a 20% off sale for my cardioid mics right now to all T.S members they sell for $129.99 a pair after the discount they are $104.00 + shipping.( for $129.99) You can not find a better sounding cardioid mic IMO.  Please check out Sound professional mics as well they also sell great mics PM me if you want me to send you a sound sample of our mics in use. Please provide me with an email address to send the file. aprox 3 meg.


Chris Church

What would be the best cardioids to get for the CMC8 when most of the recordings I do are in medium sized clubs (subcards, cards, or hypercards)?  Also, do I need the adapter from sound professionals to attach a set of cardioids?  Thanks!

[ethan]

if you run the rolloff while you're recording, you're stuck with the results.  whereas if you do the rolloff in post, you can adjust to your liking.  I never run the rolloff, and do all my eq in post, but to each his own...

While this is a true statement. I feel running it while recording is a better idea. I use the HPF on my V2 when needed frequently. The reason I say this is you must consider the levels. If the bass is hot your levels are hot and it means less of the mid's and high's are getting recorded....just my honest opinion.

[dueling]

if you run the rolloff while you're recording, you're stuck with the results.  whereas if you do the rolloff in post, you can adjust to your liking.  I never run the rolloff, and do all my eq in post, but to each his own...

While this is a true statement. I feel running it while recording is a better idea. I use the HPF on my V2 when needed frequently. The reason I say this is you must consider the levels. If the bass is hot your levels are hot and it means less of the mid's and high's are getting recorded....just my honest opinion.

I have been having this issue with the past couple of shows I have taped with my CCM4v's>V3>HD-P2 setup.  I have not been running HPF, and have taped fob and from the ts, and all of the sets have come out really heavy on the low end, and light on the mids and highs.. all three shows were fairly heavy on the low end coming out of the PA systems and I was running my levels pretty hot.  I have been told by some to run the HPF2, and been told by some to never run it.  All good points here.. I guess I just need to try different settings out and see what ends up sounding the best.

[ethan]

...  I have been told by some to run the HPF2, and been told by some to never run it.  All good points here.. I guess I just need to try different settings out and see what ends up sounding the best.

As always it's important to tape to your personal tastes. I'd like to hear the reasons someone told you to never run it (probably someone who has a reference playback system). I would never run a mic's padding or roll off but a pre amp is a different story. The V2 and V3 have the best (IMHO) roll off functionality out there. Plus you can adjust the jumpers inside to switch between 75 Hz & 125 Hz and 50 Hz & 100 Hz as well as between 6db & 12 db per octive.

For me I almost always use the HPF outside FOB and almost never in a small rooms. In medium size rooms I use it depending on the genre and instrumentation.

[George]

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused. Currently I own a SP-SPSB-6 battery box. Is this a 3-wire battery box? And if not could you direct me in the way of a really good, small phantom power unit or a 3-wire battery box? Thanks.

No.   I would highly recommend getting the 3 wire box (or getting your converted if its possible) or going with phantom power+preamp with mini xlr inputs.  The mics will sound much better and will easily be able to record loud/bass heavy concerts.  It'll save you a lot of heartache in case you record loud rock/metal shows.

[easy jim]

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused. Currently I own a SP-SPSB-6 battery box. Is this a 3-wire battery box? And if not could you direct me in the way of a really good, small phantom power unit or a 3-wire battery box? Thanks.

No.   I would highly recommend getting the 3 wire box (or getting your converted if its possible) or going with phantom power+preamp with mini xlr inputs.  The mics will sound much better and will easily be able to record loud/bass heavy concerts.  It'll save you a lot of heartache in case you record loud rock/metal shows.

I have the same SP-SPSB-6 battery box and have had no problems with brickwalling or too much bass using the cardioid caps.  While the SP-SPSB-6 is not the 3 wire box or true phantom powering, it does improve the mics' performance and enhances the SPL levels they can handle to ~125 db.  Unless you are taping on stage, or duct taping the mics to a stack, I doubt you will ever expose them to even close to that kind of volume.  An occasional transient peak might overload the AT mics in a very, very loud small club if you are not using the battery box since they then can only handle ~110 db.  I have pulled a stack tape, however, from the 2nd row in the 100s section behind one of the mains at Shoreline for Rush, a very loud band.  I had no distortion/overloading using the line-in (although it felt like the ear wax had melted out of my head and my ears rang for three days afterwards).

The Who was sued back in the 80s for pumping ~110db out of a sound system and causing hearing damage to fans.  Since then, it is a quite rare thing for SPL at shows, even loud outdoor shows, to go much over 100 db or maybe 105 db max.  A couple engineers have told me at different times, in both No. and So. Cal., that they have been required at outdoor shows under permit from local goverments to run a SPL meter and make sure that volume does not exceed 105db at their legal peril.

The big difference the phantom powering module makes for the mics.: more juice = cleaner signal and wider dynamic range.

[Church-Audio]

There are many outdoor sheds in the US that have speed limits, and if you go over them for more then a set period of time they fine you up to $2,000 per instance. They run an EKG type sound level meter (calibrated B&K) to eliminate the arguments  that gives a minute to minute readout, with a printout at the end of the concert they then add it up I have never been fined but I know many a sound engineer that has. (The bands management company pays) Unless they have told the engineer to be a good boy, and play nice. Some bands can afford it  some can not 

But inside concerts can go to 112 or higher. Because of the space issue of a small club big PA system, SPL can get up there. Most of the mic companies that quote SPL distortion levels are misleading because they are depending on an external preamp, that may or may not be part of your signal chain. Like the mini XLR to XLR preamps. So the real spl levels of a given mic not mentioning any names, may or may not be very accurate. If used with out the said cable preamp.

I did some consulting work for a Very popular microphone company in the USA, that said the lav mic that made could handle 138db, I had a singer that was distorting it with his voice. We measured it at 120dbA at 3 inches. The mic was 8 inches away from our measurement mic and the lav was still distorting.

So I place very little in what some companies say the distortion amounts are for a given mic. It depends on the termination of the mic too.

Chris Church
 

Now it gets tricky - AT853 (and probably the smaller AT943) mics overload at very high volumes - your typical club rock gig. This is why people phantom power these mics, or use a 3-wire battery box. Chris Church could build you one of these.

Ok, now I'm getting a little confused. Currently I own a SP-SPSB-6 battery box. Is this a 3-wire battery box? And if not could you direct me in the way of a really good, small phantom power unit or a 3-wire battery box? Thanks.

No.   I would highly recommend getting the 3 wire box (or getting your converted if its possible) or going with phantom power+preamp with mini xlr inputs.  The mics will sound much better and will easily be able to record loud/bass heavy concerts.  It'll save you a lot of heartache in case you record loud rock/metal shows.

I have the same SP-SPSB-6 battery box and have had no problems with brickwalling or too much bass using the cardioid caps.  While the SP-SPSB-6 is not the 3 wire box or true phantom powering, it does improve the mics' performance and enhances the SPL levels they can handle to ~125 db.  Unless you are taping on stage, or duct taping the mics to a stack, I doubt you will ever expose them to even close to that kind of volume.  An occasional transient peak might overload the AT mics in a very, very loud small club if you are not using the battery box since they then can only handle ~110 db.  I have pulled a stack tape, however, from the 2nd row in the 100s section behind one of the mains at Shoreline for Rush, a very loud band.  I had no distortion/overloading using the line-in (although it felt like the ear wax had melted out of my head and my ears rang for three days afterwards).

The Who was sued back in the 80s for pumping ~110db out of a sound system and causing hearing damage to fans.  Since then, it is a quite rare thing for SPL at shows, even loud outdoor shows, to go much over 100 db or maybe 105 db max.  A couple engineers have told me at different times, in both No. and So. Cal., that they have been required at outdoor shows under permit from local goverments to run a SPL meter and make sure that volume does not exceed 105db at their legal peril.

The big difference the phantom powering module makes for the mics.: more juice = cleaner signal and wider dynamic range.

[HighVoltage]

while we are on the subject...

what would u guys recommend as the best tools in Adobe Audition to bring down the bass on a very bassy recording?

[easy jim]

There are many outdoor sheds in the US that have speed limits, and if you go over them for more then a set period of time they fine you up to $2,000 per instance. They run an EKG type sound level meter (calibrated B&K) to eliminate the arguments ? that gives a minute to minute readout, with a printout at the end of the concert they then add it up I have never been fined but I know many a sound engineer that has. (The bands management company pays) Unless they have told the engineer to be a good boy, and play nice. Some bands can afford it  some can not 

But inside concerts can go to 112 or higher. Because of the space issue of a small club big PA system, SPL can get up there. Most of the mic companies that quote SPL distortion levels are misleading because they are depending on an external preamp, that may or may not be part of your signal chain. Like the mini XLR to XLR preamps. So the real spl levels of a given mic not mentioning any names, may or may not be very accurate. If used with out the said cable preamp.

I did some consulting work for a Very popular microphone company in the USA, that said the lav mic that made could handle 138db, I had a singer that was distorting it with his voice. We measured it at 120dbA at 3 inches. The mic was 8 inches away from our measurement mic and the lav was still distorting.

So I place very little in what some companies say the distortion amounts are for a given mic. It depends on the termination of the mic too.

Chris Church

Thanks for the specifics.  Some good details I did not know. 

I'm not surprised at all that many mic spec claims by manufacturers are specious.  After all, who really gets the gas milage claimed by their vehicle manufacturers?  Or the storage space claimed by media manufacturers (harddrives, cf cards, disc media, etc.)? 

while we are on the subject...

what would u guys recommend as the best tools in Adobe Audition to bring down the bass on a very bassy recording?

As for bringing down the bass, you are going to have to trust your ears and what sounds goos to you.  EQ'ing takes practice and focused listening.  I am not familiar with Adobe Audition, but you are going to want to use either a graphic or parametric EQ  and start reducing the frequencies at the bottom of the spectrum until it 'sounds right' to you, probably in the 20hz - 100hz range, but maybe as much into the mid-lows as 200hz depending on what frequencies were too loud.  In a parametric EQ, a good place to start would be a High Pass Filter at ~80hz

[ethan]

As for bringing down the bass, you are going to have to trust your ears and what sounds goos to you.  EQ'ing takes practice and focused listening. 

Also I recommend not listening to the filtered recording on your computers soundcard and speakers. Make sure you send SPDIF out to a reasonable DA and playback system.

-e