Topic: Help me spend somebody elses money!!

[fsulloway]

Hey all. The owner of a local venue wants to put together a rig and has asked for help. He thought he wanted to spend around $600-$750 but i explained the virus also known as the upgrade bug and have him up to $1000 probably. He likes the sbd/mic(onstage) mixes we've done at his place so it definitely needs to be a 4 channel setup. It doesn't necessarily need to be a 24 bit rig but that would be a bonus. He's got a mackie 1202 mixer that he can use but he would also like to record his little group when they play other places so he needs to be able to run off batteries. I thought the Ua5 with possibly a Jb3 behind it might be a good place to start. Obviously that leaves a bunch of mics that would fit in his budget. What ideas do you guys have? Thanks.

Frank

[Shawn]

IMO if he wants to do matrixes he'd be best off getting a device that will allow him to mix in post. If you can get him up to $1k a setup of something like a used set of studio projects c4s and a used r-4 would be decent for 4 channel stuff.

[fsulloway]

I agree with you about mixing in post and explained that to him. He's not real handy with the computer yet so he kinda had this blank look on his face when i talked about that.   If I could squeeze a few more hundred bucks out of him then I think that would be a real good option for him and save him from upgrading as soon. Thanks for the suggestion.

[gratefulphish]

I agree with Shawn.  If he really wants four channel capacity, and particularly if he is less then fully adept at taping and/or computers, anything else would make life really difficult.  He could try a portable mixer, and mixing on the fly, but you get that one try, and that is it, for better or worse.  A used modded R-4 would, at least at the beginnng, obviate the need for anything else, other than mics, cables, stand and the usual equipment.  He  is going to have to learn how to use a computer, and some of the usual software under any circumstances, so just teach him Audacity or Samplitude or another relatively easy and cheap, multi-track program.

[momule]

Im saying a pair of used C4's (like Todd's in the YS  )  and a R-4 . 
could run a pair of card or omni's from the stage lip pointed outwards towards the crowd and then take a feed from the house mix. 

[cleantone]

Does he really need or want to run a 4 channel recording? Would he be able to handle the post for every show? If not you may want to just get him an AT825 (great stereo mic for a few hundred bucks) a four channel mixer, and a CD burner or some sort of recorder. I don't know the layout of the venue but you can probably ceiling mount it somewhere above or not far out from the stage. Run cables to the mixer/recorder permanent location. Do an on the fly matrix every night to the recorder. He can probably handle setting the levels and not letting it clip with little effort. Then he can have a 2 track that needs little to not post production.

[TNJazz]

Does he really need or want to run a 4 channel recording? Would he be able to handle the post for every show? If not you may want to just get him an AT825 (great stereo mic for a few hundred bucks) a four channel mixer, and a CD burner or some sort of recorder. I don't know the layout of the venue but you can probably ceiling mount it somewhere above or not far out from the stage. Run cables to the mixer/recorder permanent location. Do an on the fly matrix every night to the recorder. He can probably handle setting the levels and not letting it clip with little effort. Then he can have a 2 track that needs little to not post production.

Agree.  4 channel matrixes done in post are definitely not in this guy's mind, I'm sure (based on the info you've provided).  My guess is if he had to do much post he'd probably bail after a fairly short time.  Club owners have a lot more to worry about than mixing a recording after the fact.

I'd second the suggestion for a stereo mic (perhaps a permanent install over the stage) and some sort of burner/recorder at FOH.

[fsulloway]

The reason we like to run 4 channel in this place is because it's small, the stage is maybe 6 inches off the ground, very rarely are more than half the instruments mic'd, the pa is sometimes less than head high and once the crowd fills in there is no direct line to the sound. I've hung mics from the ceiling with half descent results when it's not crowded. As stated he's got a mixer he can use but also wants to be portable for when he and his friends play elsewhere and might need to go with battery power and also not be a permannent mounted thing. Here's a couple of shots of the stage area. Thanks for all the ideas and suggestions fellas.

[dean]

Ceiling mount split omnis on stage (ADK51TLs ideal, so you can switch patterns if need be), followed by a UA5 > whatever (JB3, MT, etc.).  This will all come in around 1K.  I agree that there's now way this guy wants to get into post production mixing.  If there's a chance you're interested in doing all that, it'd be worth it.  Have fun!   

[Nick Graham]

Damn...welcome to Schoeps country.....

[J.T.L]

You can only do so much w/ the palm room it seems, so just ceiling mount an LSD2 a little closer than where the mount is now. Onstage there is risky when the house is packed

[fsulloway]

Onstage there is risky when the house is packed

You would know!

[Stagger]

Damn...welcome to Schoeps country.....

Yea... looks like an Outformation show!

[easy jim]

For that room, maybe ceiling mount a split pair of PZM/boundary layer mics and run the cables to his Mackie at FOH.  Just add a recorder of your favorite flavor/budgetary ability.  I know that does not help with portability, but it may be a good way to deal with his venue on the cheap and leave some $ in the budget for travelin' mics and a pre-amp. or a field power solution for his Mackie (I had a buddy who would bring a Mackie 1202 to shows all the time with a motorcycle battery SLA rig to power it).

Some decent/good PZMs should be pretty cheap to set up, in the $1-300 range, depending on the manfacturer/model.  Crown is probably a good place to start, although lots of other companies make PZM/boundary layer mics.

[dean]

For that room, maybe ceiling mount a split pair of PZM/boundary layer mics and run the cables to his Mackie at FOH.  Just add a recorder of your favorite flavor/budgetary ability.  I know that does not help with portability, but it may be a good way to deal with his venue on the cheap and leave some $ in the budget for travelin' mics and a pre-amp. or a field power solution for his Mackie (I had a buddy who would bring a Mackie 1202 to shows all the time with a motorcycle battery SLA rig to power it).

Some decent/good PZMs should be pretty cheap to set up, in the $1-300 range, depending on the manfacturer/model.  Crown is probably a good place to start, although lots of other companies make PZM/boundary layer mics.

I'm very curious to know what a pzm would sound like for music.  I've only used it for non-musical application, and only 2x.    Can you post anything here to listen to, Jim?

[kskreider]

I'm very curious to know what a pzm would sound like for music.  I've only used it for non-musical application, and only 2x.    Can you post anything here to listen to, Jim?

Try any of Bob Cogswell's recordings

[baustin]

Joel at jamlive.org does some decent sbd/aud on the fly matrices with a ua5 and jb3. In front of the audience mics he runs a pair of Behringer DSP 110 Shark signal delays.

If I'm not correct, isn't there be a set number for delay based on cable lengths (if he'll be doing onstage recordings) that he could use to do his matrices. My "New Stereo Soundbook" is out on loan right now.

[easy jim]

I'm very curious to know what a pzm would sound like for music.  I've only used it for non-musical application, and only 2x.    Can you post anything here to listen to, Jim?

Try any of Bob Cogswell's recordings

Thanks Keith.  I believe Bob uses a special stereo PZM mic made by crown.  It looks really weird, kind of like a cross between a brick and a hat, and it works well being placed on the stage floor DFC. 

Moe's Alley in Santa Cruz has an in-house matrix rig set-up for patching with artist/engineer permission.  They use a pair of Realistic PZM mics mounted above the stage.  I patched out of this set-up a couple times with Alfred Howard and the K23 Orchestra and Delta Nove, though as a part of a larger multi recording. Here is a recent sample of that matrix set-up someone else patched from at a Garaj Mahal show: http://www.archive.org/details/gm2007-05-22.flac16

I'm not the best one to give a run-down or explain how PZM mics work, but the gist to my understanding is that they are a type of boundary layer mic and they take advantage of being mounted on a large reflective surface (ceiling, stage floor, etc.) to achieve an omni-directional response above the boundary. 

Copied/pasted from the Crown website (http://www.crownaudio.com/mic_web/mic_faq.htm):

The PZM has a hemispherical pickup pattern when used on a boundary like a floor, wall, ceiling or tabletop. Another way to look at that is to say that it is omnidirectional above the boundary plane. This makes sense when you consider that it generally can't pick up sound from behind the boundary.

I think they tend to sound on the 'dry' side to my ears and do not have the monsterous bass response I typically associate with omni mics, but they do share a generally 'natural' balance across the frequency range to my ears (though with some low roll off and a bump in the cymbal range of the upper frequencies).  For stage/ceiling mount use, I really like them.  However, I don't think they're practicable for AUD taping unless you're willing to carry a boundary with you.  Some folks have done this, however, with large sheets of plexiglass on a stand and the mics mounted to the plexiglass.  I remember seeing a pic on the TS here of a set-up like that at some point.

If I'm not correct, isn't there be a set number for delay based on cable lengths (if he'll be doing onstage recordings) that he could use to do his matrices.

Delay is a function of mic distance from the sound source - approx. 1 milisec/foot.  The delay from cable length is so negligible (unless your running 100s or 1000s of feet of cable) that it should never really come into play with audio.  There's another thread that addresses this in more detail here: http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,79601.0/all.html

[dean]

Thanks for the pzm info, guys.  Very helpful.  I do tons of onstage recording and now know that it'd be well worth experimenting with a pzm.  Currently I do a lot of baffled omni, Healy Method omni and, of course, split omni recording.  I like them all very much, and depending on set up, instruments, physical space, etc., I know when and where I can get away with each, for the most part.  Pzm will be the next logical place for me to experiment.  I've bookmarked this page for future reference...          

[easy jim]

Thanks for the pzm info, guys.  Very helpful.  I do tons of onstage recording and now know that it'd be well worth experimenting with a pzm.  Currently I do a lot of baffled omni, Healy Method omni and, of course, split omni recording.  I like them all very much, and depending on set up, instruments, physical space, etc., I know when and where I can get away with each, for the most part.  Pzm will be the next logical place for me to experiment.  I've bookmarked this page for future reference...          

I've been looking into it too, and have considered pulling the trigger a few times on pairs of Crown or AKG PZMs.  Still gotta recover from some recent sluttiness or shed some more gear before that though