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Gear / Technical Help => Microphones & Setup => Topic started by: Highdesert on March 14, 2015, 07:08:49 PM
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I am getting ready to use a new rig for the 1st time in 20 years and really don’t want to blow it right out of the box. I have been experimenting and familiarizing myself with the setup in the den on the weekends alternately cranking the stereo and then playing softer tunes while I record. The setup is a PCM M10/Ugly II/and Ca 11 cards and omnis..
So, a few questions..
From what I’ve read here I will be using the line in rather than mic in for most shows with this setup?
Is the mic att switch for the internal mics only or external and internal using mic in? I did not see a difference on the meters playing around here at home using external mics line in and switching back and forth between high/low.
What are the speed control in menu and DPC speed control switch functions and what are the proper settings?
Limiter set to off?
Low cut filter set to off?
I have tried two different micro sdhc cards and this recorder will not recognize either (1 Sandisk and 1 Samsung). I have read here that this isn’t uncommon with the PCM M10 and 99% of the time the 4 gb internal will be more than enough but….any ideas? (As read here, I did try leaving the card in and turning the unit on/off a number of times to no avail).
The 1st outing (next Friday) will be acoustic blues 1st act, soft electric rock/blues/country/Americana the 2nd act. The venue is a small room (125 capacity). We will be about ½ way back to the side. Nothing approaching a stack on the stage. Pretty laid back little room with the potential for a lot of yakkity yak but I’m thinking it will be a pretty quiet respectful crowd.
Shortly after, The second outing will be rock and roll in a mid sized theatre (1900 capacity) to be taped from the front row balcony center on the aisle. Standard stage set up for a venue this size. It will be loud but not ear bleed volume.
Any ideas on a starting point for the volume settings on the recorder and the Ugly II along with which mics (Ca 11 cards or omnis) should be used in these maiden voyages would be greatly appreciated!
Looking forward to taping with this rig. Thank you in advance for your advice!
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Flip the micro sd card over. It goes in "upside down". Counterintuitive, but most of us have made that mistake.
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HA! LOL. It's alive! It's alive! (the memory card) Thanks for that one! :))))))))))))))
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I would say limiter/LC Filter off. Might as well not affect it permanently if you don't need to (that stuff can all be done in post). As for cards/omnis everybody will have different opinions about that. Are these stealthy situations or open? I would say that the cards could be lovely from the front row of the balcony and a relatively loud show.
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These are both going to be stealth efforts. Mics will be clipped to a baseball cap. I was thinking the same thing about the cards for the mid sized venue. Not to sure about the ugly II or pcm m10 volume settings for either show though. Just playing around at home using line in this rig is much more sensitive than my old Dat recorders and ECM 959A mic. That rig line in would hardy pick up my home stereo, the new rig I can easily make the levels ring with the home stereo line in. I'm gonna go with pretty conservative settings.
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Question about conservative Ugly II and PCM M10 volume settings. Is it possible to be to conservative? With my old rig it was. Taped to low I'd get some slight hiss post production when I had to ramp the volume WAY, WAY up. I'm thinking this would not be an issue with this rig?????
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Set the M10 @ 4-5 and use the pre to get the levels where they're strong but you don't hit the red.
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Good stuff. Many thanks!
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I always leave the limiter ON. There are differing schools on this, but frankly I don't see why. I think of it as the airbag--it will only kick in during an extreme situation, and it doesn't affect anything at all otherwise. It's your last resort if the person sitting next to you suddenly shrieks like a train whistle.
Low Cut filter, off. No need. Get that bass.
Auto Level, off--make sure it's Manual. (You can see immediately on the display, which is light-on-dark with Auto, dark-on-light with Manual. Try it to see what I mean.) Auto Level is different from the limiter--it would pump up quiet passages and suppress loud ones. The more musical way to go is Manual set at the correct level--i.e., the green lights flash once in a while.
DPC, off. That is digital pitch control for musicians who want to play along later, maybe in a different key.
The CA mics are low sensitivity, which is good for amplified music, but apparently not as low-sens as your old Sonys. (And they probably sound a whole world better.) I don't use ANY preamp. I run CA-14-->Ugly Battery Box-->Line-in and the CA-14 mics, which are probably not the exact same sensitivity as your CA--11, end up best around 7 on the PCM-M10 volume knob at a typical rock concert. Other, more sensitive mics are about 4 or 5 on the PCM-M10.
I suspect you're going to have to keep the preamp output way down low, like under 4 (and even perhaps at 1 or 0) for anything amplified. Put the PCM-M10 at 4, which is unity gain--neither amplifying nor cutting back.
You've been testing with home stereo--that's really your best bet unless you want to use the opening act for further testing.
Use the cardioids if you need to cut conversation or room echo. But if it's not boomy or chatty, I'm more a fan of omnis, especially if they are on a baseball cap. For one thing, if you swivel your head, omnis are a lot more forgiving than cards would be.
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Sweet! Many thanks, Mike
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I assume you will be using this rig for "non-open" taping. If that is the case I recommend setting the REC level to manual and taping down the switch on the back with a small piece of gaff to keep the switch from accidentally moving.
Also, I'd use some gaff to secure the 1/8" cable to keep it from moving/dislodging. I learned that one right quick my first or second time out and temporarily lost a channel and introduced some staticky noise from the cable moving around a bit while in my pocket.
Good luck and enjoy your new toys!
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^ that's definitely good advice. I've had cables come out before or things become dislodged.
I always leave the limiter ON. There are differing schools on this, but frankly I don't see why. I think of it as the airbag--it will only kick in during an extreme situation, and it doesn't affect anything at all otherwise. It's your last resort if the person sitting next to you suddenly shrieks like a train whistle.
I tend to disagree with this simply because that's something you can do at a later point in time, whereas having the limiter on while recording permanently affects the recording at the first stage. I think it probably depends what your background is in (I'm in studio stuff and the idea of limiting at the recording stage just scares me.) Plus, I just can't stand the sound of a poorly set limiter ;D
I also run my CA-14/AT-853s straight into an ugly battery box and then line in. I'm usually fine with the gain on my recorder at about 4-5
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Wow! A ton of great suggestions. Thanks everyone!
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I tend to disagree with this simply because that's something you can do at a later point in time, whereas having the limiter on while recording permanently affects the recording at the first stage. I think it probably depends what your background is in (I'm in studio stuff and the idea of limiting at the recording stage just scares me.) Plus, I just can't stand the sound of a poorly set limiter ;D
If the PCM-M10's limiter has to come on, the recording is about to distort otherwise. It's not compression for any other moment of the recording--just when the sudden overload happens. At that point--unless you've got some fancy software that can un-distort the distorted bit--I think it's best to have the limiter on. But as I mentioned, there are varied opinions on this.
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(http://www.thebort.com/www/Smileys/default/thumbsup.gif)
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I'll second everything Earmonger said. (I run the same setup as him: CA-14 cards > Ugly > M10.) I usually find I end up pushing my gain knob to 8 or 9 without going past -12dB, even at louder shows, but even down around 5 without a preamp it would probably be fine. Hiss doesn't really kick in until the levels are real low.
As for cards vs. omnis, I'm a fan of omni sound as well, but they're less forgiving: You get room echo, chatter from the people behind you, etc. I forget who on here said it (possibly NYCtaper), but omnis are best for situations where the sound is perfect where you're standing; if you want to zero in on the stage and ignore the rest of the room, you'll probably do better with cards.
I'd probably go with cards in both the situations you describe (to filter out the chatter in the first case, and the room echo in the second since you'll be a ways back), but really there's no wrong answer. It's just a matter of which tradeoffs you choose to make, and which annoys you more: thinner sound or muddier sound.
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Hey! I want to apologize for this tardy and incomplete update on the maiden voyage. Tapes turned out great! Thanks guys! I'm thinking 75% this place, 24% luck and 1% 20 years of taping. Man..no limiter and I rode it (unwittingly) right to the max. No headroom to spare, never went over, no distortion/clipping. That was luck. I have saved these settings for the next time I tape this room. Also impressed at how directional the Cards are. I was positive the opening acts tape was complete garbage. The worst drunk chit chat crowd sitting behind me and to my left (along with the bar). Even that is listenable and even..gasp..enjoyable. After the 1st act, I gave up our seats , moved around and found a pretty damn good spot to tape from for the main act. Anyways this gives way to a few more questions I have about this rig, which will come later. In the meantime, Thanks!
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Good to hear...but really, if you were that close to clipping ("no headroom to spare") do you really want to keep the same settings for next time? By the sounds of it, any little volume boost would have ruined your recording. Why risk it?
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Not at all. It turned out perfect but I was playing with fire. The settings are a starting point. If I use for this rig at this room next month i'd take it down on the ugly II from 1.5 to 1 (or?) to be safe. PCM vol 4 to 3 maybe? I like as little headroom as possible. Sounds great, But I also want to always error on the side of caution..
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(Happily) surprized with the CA 11 card mics and ugly II. 20 years with Sony ECM 959A mics/dat. Fiddled around with core sound cards 2001/02? went back to the 959A. Core sound cards clarity was pretty good. Bass sucked. 959A to much bass but I'd rather the bass there to get rid of after the fact if necessary.. CA 11' cards enough bass there to enhance if so desired after the fact as compared to the core sound cards no bass there to enhance after the fact. Pretty impressed w/Mr Church and his efforts. I went with his 11''s over the 14's because (at least in my readings) he seemed to prefer some of the CA 11s attributes.. Same room next (blues, 120 cap) , mid sized hall (rock, 1900 cap) after. Having fun taping. got the bug again. Could get expensive...Thanks again! Esp for the vol control, in/out duct tape reminder. Priceless stuff only Taperssection would remind one of.
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My second go around at the same venue with this rig last night. Same type of bands, same taping location. 1st set I adjusted the ugly II down to 1 from the 1.5 I did last time up here and left the PCM M10 at vol 4 . This made a very noticeable difference in volume. The 2nd set I took the Ugly II down to zero, leaving the PCM volume line in at 4 and again, the difference was exponential. I actually wish there was a 1.25 setting on the Ugly II. Anyways all turned out great. it is beginning to look like any foole could make a great tape with this rig. Thanks again for all the help.
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Awesome! Welcome back to the fold. Post a clip if you can. :)
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I'm going to move up to small to medium sized halls late May and June and clips will follow if interested. The Maiden Voyages were at a very small room I discovered recently and basically everyone knows everyone. They'd have my ass pegged. I don't want to ruin a good thing. Selfishly, I hope no one else ever discovers this joint :)
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I'm going to move up to small to medium sized halls late May and June and clips will follow if interested. The Maiden Voyages were at a very small room I discovered recently and basically everyone knows everyone. They'd have my ass pegged. I don't want to ruin a good thing. Selfishly, I hope no one else ever discovers this joint :)
High Desert in California? Pappy & Harriets?