Taperssection.com
Gear / Technical Help => Ask The Tapers => Topic started by: Rat6666 on February 23, 2004, 11:27:50 AM
-
Hi gang,
I recently bought myself a second-hand Sony TCD-D8, and am looking to buy a set of SP AT-853's (cardioids). I've heard nothing but good about them for the price, so I'm fairly sure those are what I'll be getting for mics. However, I welcome other suggestions since I'm extremely new to this and already I understand the point that it's better to be generous rather than stingy with funds, especially when it comes to mics.
My total budget is $500-800, and I've already spent $300 on the DAT. It'll be another $170 for the 853's. I'm looking for very good quality in my setup. I'm also leaning towards stealth, since some shows I go to may not be pro-taping. I don't really want to drag around a stand anyway. However, I'm sure I could upgrade to a decent stand later on to get above the crowd if ever needed.
I have an Echo Gina24 sound card with S/PDIF and optical input/outputs.
I'm setting up this rig primarily to record a Marc Cohn concert this May (acoustic, piano, etc). I'll be front row center in a playhouse/theater venue, so I'll be in a perfect spot for taping. Any suggestions on mic techniques, aiming, etc? I am hoping to get permission from the artist beforehand so I can set up close to/on the stage. If not, I'll have to stealth it on my lapels or in a hat.
Beyond that concert, the rig will be used for Mule, WSP, etc type shows from the crowd. Obviously I'm going to practice, practice practice before the Cohn concert to make sure I am familiar with what I'm doing!
My questions:
- What type of battery box/bass rolloff filter/analog-to-digital combo might be ideal for my setup/budget/use?
- Which is the better DAT > sound card input type - S/PDIF or optical?
- What sort of cables will I need to do all this?
- Is there anything else, obvious or not, that I may be overlooking?
I took a quick look at the AD-20 but that's way out of my price range. However, I'm curious to see how much better the quality would be using that over the onboard ADC in the Sony D8. Is an external ADC something I should really be concerned about at this point based on my budget, or will I experience decent results using only the onboard ADC?
Any and all other suggestions and observations are heartily welcomed!!! ;D
Thanks in advance.
-
at this point, and with your budget, you will be better off getting a battery box for use with those mics.
as for DAT > SoundCard, coax will be more trouble-free, and if you get a coax cable you will be able to patch off other people at shows too. you may be able to find a 7pin-optical cable for cheap, but that won't do you much good in the field.
stay away, very far away, from Coresound cables. never put a 7-pin in your deck unless it has the sony 7-pin head on it. prodigital cables are the best bang for the buck, imo (http://www.prodigitalinc.com)
-
Definitely get the SP battery box! You CANNOT use phantom power on those mics (they take 10v max bias power) so you either must use the plug-in power from your D8 (bad idea) or a battery box. Then run into the line-in on your D8 (not the mic in). You should get some decent recordings.
Optical IS s/pdif, just in another form. Either way is OK. I personally prefer Optical. BTW, Sony does make an optical 7-pin for the DATs (I have one, just not sure of the model #, about $80).
That being said, most digital equipment is Coax s/pdif, so if you ever want to patch, get a coax 7-pin. And stay away from the homebrew ones. Make sure they have the sony connector on the 7-pin end and have the analog/digital switch (for input)
-
Definitely get the SP battery box! You CANNOT use phantom power on those mics (they take 10v max bias power) so you either must use the plug-in power from your D8 (bad idea) or a battery box. Then run into the line-in on your D8 (not the mic in). You should get some decent recordings.
THIS IS FALSE. Get the SP-CMC-4 (at853) mics for $170 WITH the $100 phantom power adapter kit. It's listed under options on the CMC-4 page. This bumps your price up only $20 over the Battery box w/ bass roll-off option, but you will now be able to run them off of 48V phantom power from a quality preamp. There is one major advantage to this: 48V phantom power increases the dynamic range, as well as MAX SPL of the mics. You will have a greater chance at preventing the mics from "overloading" and the overall sound will be fuller compared to the battery box powered mics.
so...
$170(CMC-4s) + $80(SP-SPSB-1 battery box w/ roll-off) = $250
$170 + $100(phantom power adapter kit) = $270
here you get better sound, versatility with preamps, etc.
or, if you think that is too much, the SP-CMC-2 mics are a GREAT great alternative. These mics used by myself and others on this board have worked well with zero problems. However, the the CMC-4s with the phantom power adapter kit is definitely a step up.
$120(CMC-2s) + $80(SPSPSB-1) = $200
gotta go to class, I'll post more later if necessary
-
Thanks for all the suggestions so far!
I suppose I'd be most interested in phantom power on the 853's and using an Oade Edirol UA-5 (both mods).
If that's a good way to go, what other cables/adapters will I need?
This is how it's starting to look:
853's > SP-SPSB-1/Phantom > UA-5 > coax > D8 > Sony 7-pin to S/PDIF coax > Gina24 > Wavelab > Oh the humanity ;D
Any other suggestions welcome!
-
looks beautiful, except you will be using a 7-pin cable for the ua-5 > D8 connection as well..
Hopefully you can get some more feedback on whether the phantom power adapters will be a good move for you, but it looks like they will work well.
-
OK. 7-pin it is ;)
Edit:
P.S. - How was the riot?
-
we passed the riot as it was just beginning (beer bottles being thrown) so we left to avoid trouble. Supposedly the cops chased people up and down the street shooting tear gas/mace filled paint balls at people. I saw a few guys in the clink whom got beaten pretty bad in the face. I'm of the opinion that the only reason a bunch of people gathered to form a "mob" is because the police inflicted it, and it could have been easily avoided.
1) they picked the busiest intersection with the most frat houses to setup their riot station
2) they closed the intersection to cars but not foot traffic.
3) they set up all the squad cars in the middle of the intersection. This allowed people to easily encircle the entire intersection (we are talking about hundreds of people all around) and gave drunken bastages an easy target to throw beer bottles at.
4) they brought in helicopters to spotlight the intersection. Crazy drunken college kids seeing bright lights from the sky makes crazy drunken college kids go crazier. Also, lights usually attract people.
5) they had riot gear on before the riot started. They knew it would happen, they wanted it to happen.
The city also moved the parade from saturday night to sunday afternoon because they wanted the parade to be more family appropriate instead of chicks showing their tits all over the place and drunks stumbling around. Now students just party anyway and there's no main focus downtown to make all the partying legit. Round up a few hundred people by starting a riot (yes, I think the police are responsible) and give them all a few hundred dollar fine each. Pays for their expenses for the night and the police get to go paintballing. Not a bad night to be a PO.
-
1) they picked the busiest intersection with the most frat houses to setup their riot station
2) they closed the intersection to cars but not foot traffic.
3) they set up all the squad cars in the middle of the intersection. This allowed people to easily encircle the entire intersection (we are talking about hundreds of people all around) and gave drunken bastages an easy target to throw beer bottles at.
4) they brought in helicopters to spotlight the intersection. Crazy drunken college kids seeing bright lights from the sky makes crazy drunken college kids go crazier. Also, lights usually attract people.
5) they had riot gear on before the riot started. They knew it would happen, they wanted it to happen.
None of this sounds unreasonable, IMO. If the police knew they were going into a situation for crowd control with loads of drunk idiots, darn right they prepared themselves using the appropriate gear with which to protect themselves. I'm not convinced it's the police's fault for drunk college kids being dumb-asses.
Why, I even remember back in the day when everyone gathered in HUGE numbers to party and (gasp!) just have a good time - without doing dumb-ass shit like throwing bottles at police. There's no excuse for dumb-ass behaviour, drunk college kids or otherwise.
-
They never threw shit at the police, because the police weren't there in riot gear coercing the situation. That's all I'm saying.
This (mardi gras in SLO) has been going on for decades and this year is the first year riots have occured. Coincidently, this is the first year the police have made a huge to-do prior to the big ho-down (ie: bringing in 20 different law enforcement agencies and advertising against partying). Why didn't this happen in Santa Barbara or other big party schools? Because the cops walk the streets there looking for people committing real crimes like rape, vandalism, theft, DUIs, etc. They don't give a fuck about the kids walking the streets looking for some titty. Am I saying the cops are breaking the law, and the jackholes throwing bottles are right? Not at all. But it could have been just like the good ole days like you mentioned, skalinder, it could have been.
-
OK, got some prices back from Oade:
UA-5:
$295.00 for just the digi out mod
$500.00 for the "warm" mod + digi out
$550.00 for the "presence" mod + digi out
we also have a cable that provides both a coax digital in and out, and they can be used simultaneously, for 165.00 for the active field certified version, and 110.00 for the passive version. you can check them out here: http://www.oade.com/audiocenter/oadecable.html
hope this info helps...jim
Keeping in mind that the warm & presence mods would both break the bank on my budget, has anybody had experience using either of these? What kind of step up in quality might I expect by going with the extra mods?
What is the difference between the active and passive I/O cables? Which might I rather be inclined to go for?
My intended setup:
Phantom 853's > UA-5 > TCD-D8
Any other suggestions would be great. Thanks everyone for your help so far... Sooner or later I'll get straightened out and start recording!
-
i'm just curious, well, i'm really interested in the UA-5...
how easy is it to sneak into a venue? the edirol specs pages say its pretty big and heavy...
-
THIS IS FALSE. Get the SP-CMC-4 (at853) mics for $170 WITH the $100 phantom power adapter kit. It's listed under options on the CMC-4 page. This bumps your price up only $20 over the Battery box w/ bass roll-off option, but you will now be able to run them off of 48V phantom power from a quality preamp. There is one major advantage to this: 48V phantom power increases the dynamic range, as well as MAX SPL of the mics. You will have a greater chance at preventing the mics from "overloading" and the overall sound will be fuller compared to the battery box powered mics.
so...
$170(CMC-4s) + $80(SP-SPSB-1 battery box w/ roll-off) = $250
$170 + $100(phantom power adapter kit) = $270
here you get better sound, versatility with preamps, etc.
or, if you think that is too much, the SP-CMC-2 mics are a GREAT great alternative. These mics used by myself and others on this board have worked well with zero problems. However, the the CMC-4s with the phantom power adapter kit is definitely a step up.
$120(CMC-2s) + $80(SPSPSB-1) = $200
gotta go to class, I'll post more later if necessary
"THIS IS FALSE" is a little harsh. The AT phantom adapters are doing the SAME JOB as the batterybox, for more $ and less functionality. I found this bit of info after blowing out one of my 853s by plugging it directly into phantom power, and speaking to a tech at Sound Professionals.
Phantom power is nothing but a bias voltage. The mics, I repeat, CANNOT take a direct power source of more than 10v. The Phantom power adapter sold by Audio-Technica does nothing more than choke 48v to about 9-10v. So instead of spending that money on a simple power adapter, he can better spend it on a battery box with a bass roll-off. IMHO, that's a better deal. I've been using my 853's with the battery/level/roll-off box going into my UA-5 for a while now with great results.
That being said, there is an advantage to having balanced cabling to each mic (which you don't get with the battery box.. the lead is a 3-conductor 1/8" stereo jack in and out) but that only really makes any difference when your cables are >15 feet. I've never gotten any buzz or pops in my setup, even with extensions as long as 20'.
Remember, he is using a small setup, potentially for stealth. So those Phantom Power adapters are going to add a lot of unnecessary bulk if he wants to hide any of it. Plus he'd have to get XLR-mini adapters ANYWAY to run into his D8, as he won't be using a pre right away.
The AT Phantom adapters are NOT the way to go if you want stealth, rat6666.
Schwillber, please check your references before discounting FACTS. I am talking from real world experience, not a spec sheet.
Thanks.
-
When discussing battery boxes with bass rolloff and the phantom power adapters, it has not been clarified that the phantom power adapters (at least the AT 8533 does) also have a built in bass rolloff switch on the xlr housing with a "no rolloff" setting and two levels of rolloff, so that functionality is not lost when using phantom power.
-
I'm considering this (phantom) mod for my SP AT933s, but after listening to my MMW recording from Sunday, I don't know if I'll bother. It sounds great. I thought I'd get some gains by going to phantom, but based on your information I'm not so sure. I may just keep these as-is and maybe get different mics when I feel the need to upgrade.
-
"THIS IS FALSE" is a little harsh. The AT phantom adapters are doing the SAME JOB as the batterybox, for more $ and less functionality. I found this bit of info after blowing out one of my 853s by plugging it directly into phantom power, and speaking to a tech at Sound Professionals.
Phantom power is nothing but a bias voltage. The mics, I repeat, CANNOT take a direct power source of more than 10v.
Actually the real AT 853s and not the SP versions can take 48 volts...this will allow them to reach their full range of SPL handling specs.
The Phantom power adapter sold by Audio-Technica does nothing more than choke 48v to about 9-10v. So instead of spending that money on a simple power adapter, he can better spend it on a battery box with a bass roll-off. IMHO, that's a better deal. I've been using my 853's with the battery/level/roll-off box going into my UA-5 for a while now with great results.
I have no disputes with your results, however, I can say that I have had several bass heavy shows that the SP versions of these mics could not handle due to the decreased SPL handling capability. No matter how much bass roll off you run, it would not matter, because the SPLs are distorting it before it hits the batt box.
Remember, he is using a small setup, potentially for stealth. So those Phantom Power adapters are going to add a lot of unnecessary bulk if he wants to hide any of it. Plus he'd have to get XLR-mini adapters ANYWAY to run into his D8, as he won't be using a pre right away.
actually I think it depends alot on what you tape...any bass (Chili Peppers show, Mule/Kid Rock show for me personally), and the SP mics will distort....which is the increased phantom is preferable, in that it increases the SPL handling. With regards to size, I can tell you from experience how little fun it is, even if your rig is small to get home with a useless tape.
-
They have bass roll-off? I didn't know. Still, they aren't applicable here as he doesn't have a pre-amp, or the money for one.
-
JOE MANGO: You CANNOT use phantom power on those mics (they take 10v max bias power) so you either must use the plug-in power from your D8 (bad idea) or a battery box. Then run into the line-in on your D8 (not the mic in).
SCHWILLY: FALSE, untrue, incorrect! FAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLSSSSSEEE!
If I can not use phantom power to power these mics, then how do I and tons of other people run them into preamps??? According to you, they "MUST" run into a battery box or a mic-in on a recorder. And I said that was FALSE! because it's not true! I don't do it, Nick doesn't do it, anyone who has the ever used these mics with the phantom power adapters doesn't do it. Maybe this seems harsh, but I have no idea why you are argueing with me. I didn't say the sound WILL be better or or your recordings sound like shit, Joe. I said the specs are better, and that you provided false info, that's it.
I'm sorry you blew out your mic, but that's what the adapters are for.
quick math time:
$80 battery box w/ bass rolloff + $25 1/8" > dual XLR adapter = $105
$100 adapters = $100
already the adapters are cheaper
And I'll put up my AT853Rx sources against your best modSP sources. The Sound doesn't lie.
Gotta go to class, I'll deal with the "size" issue later ::)
peace
~schwill
-
Damn, y'all are pissy today. I'm sure the AT phantom adapters regulate the voltage applied to the mics. I doubt it applies 48 (or 52, which they can handle) directly to the capsules, or if it steps it down. However, no one ever said that you can apply 48V directly to the capsule. Providing 48V to the mic via the inline adapters (in the case of AT853Rx version) or the seperate "box" that comes with the at853A's, does increase dynamic range, SPL-handling, and thus enhance sound. In addition, at least on the module with the at853Rx, it provides a rolloff option as well.
Trust me, i've run both the SP version with battery box, and the at853Rx. There is a big difference. Schwilly knows what he's talking about. Sorry you applied 48V directly to your mics. But that doesn't mean that applying 48V via a phantom power module has no effect, because it does.
-
Damn, y'all are pissy today. I'm sure the AT phantom adapters regulate the voltage applied to the mics. I doubt it applies 48 (or 52, which they can handle) directly to the capsules, or if it steps it down. However, no one ever said that you can apply 48V directly to the capsule. Providing 48V to the mic via the inline adapters (in the case of AT853Rx version) or the seperate "box" that comes with the at853A's, does increase dynamic range, SPL-handling, and thus enhance sound. In addition, at least on the module with the at853Rx, it provides a rolloff option as well.
Trust me, i've run both the SP version with battery box, and the at853Rx. There is a big difference. Schwilly knows what he's talking about. Sorry you applied 48V directly to your mics. But that doesn't mean that applying 48V via a phantom power module has no effect, because it does.
nicely said!
marc
-
thanx, drummingj, for saying what I couldn't express properly. I also find the AT853Rx sound more pleasing to my ears. I haven't used the CMC-4s, but I have heard many recordings with them and everything I have recorded with the AT853Rx (THANX GOOSE!!!) is leaps and bounds better. This is not a knock on SP, because i feel the SP-CMC-2 setup is the best bang for your buck stealth-wise, and have recommended it to many people. However, if you are gonna step up to a higher quality switchable cap system, why short-change yourself?
Regarding size, I don't want to beat this limping horse, but he ain't dead yet, so...
The xlr terminations combined hold roughly the same volume as the battery box. Also, he said he will probably use a UA-5, therefore, I don't think the XLR termination would be a problem for him. Rather, they would fit nicely with the UA-5. I would love to see someone get a UA-5 into one of the bigger (2000+) venues used in Cali.
-
BTW, It's drumminj not drummingj. But that's okay.
Schwilly, I do think that your setup sounds better than most CMC-4 recordings because those are CMC-4->JB3 (w/o preamp) or directly into a DAT. You rarely find one running into an outboard pre+A/D. I have some decent CMC-4->AD-20->JB3 tapes, but I still feel the at853Rx do a better job, by far.
J
-
BTW, It's drumminj not drummingj. But that's okay.
Schwilly, I do think that your setup sounds better than most CMC-4 recordings because those are CMC-4->JB3 (w/o preamp) or directly into a DAT. You rarely find one running into an outboard pre+A/D. I have some decent CMC-4->AD-20->JB3 tapes, but I still feel the at853Rx do a better job, by far.
J
sorry drumminj!
very true, I was basing my opinion off of tapes from europe using the CMC-4s and the recordings are just not good at all. Nick told me he just got his Rxs today, he's running mp-2 > modSBM-1. I hope he likes them ;Das much as we do :)
-
i'm just curious, well, i'm really interested in the UA-5...
how easy is it to sneak into a venue? the edirol specs pages say its pretty big and heavy...
Remember what you said about the AD-20?
"Nah, too big."
That's all I'll say about that - and I didn't even say anything.
A
-
i'm just curious, well, i'm really interested in the UA-5...
how easy is it to sneak into a venue? the edirol specs pages say its pretty big and heavy...
Remember what you said about the AD-20?
"Nah, too big."
That's all I'll say about that - and I didn't even say anything.
A
nah, the ua-5 is doable ;)
-
actually I think it depends alot on what you tape...any bass (Chili Peppers show, Mule/Kid Rock show for me personally), and the SP mics will distort....which is the increased phantom is preferable, in that it increases the SPL handling. With regards to size, I can tell you from experience how little fun it is, even if your rig is small to get home with a useless tape.
Well, i taped a few shows, some bassy while some we're not. I didn't have the same problems you have been having. I'm curious though, what kind of roll-off did you use for the shows that distorted?
-
I always wondered if maybe it was the circuitry in the batt. box/rolloff that was causing problems and not the mics. I never was ambitious enough to test that hypothesis, though. I do know that you can throw pretty much anything at the at853Rx's and they won't distort, however.
And Nick, thanks for letting me know you got the mics!! (oh, wait, that was Schwilly...)
-
lol, I blew nick's jig.
-
Well, i taped a few shows, some bassy while some we're not. I didn't have the same problems you have been having. I'm curious though, what kind of roll-off did you use for the shows that distorted?
the max rolloff below the 888Hz, I ran the 195 Hz...it wasnt the rolloff, the bass distorted before it hit the batt box in my opinion....it depends on where you are in relation to the bass cabinet. For the Chili show I was 20 ft from it, and it was at head level. For the Kid Rock show I was 50 ft from it and it was at head level.
-
Ok... so you do get a higher SPL tolerance with the AT Phantom adapters. Perhaps that's the difference between 9 volts (battery box) and 10 (effective output of the phantom adapters). But still, he has no phantom source. He's got the d8 and wants the mics and has no more money beyond that at this point. Telling him to buy phantom adapters when he doesn't have a phantom source is not helping the originator of this post. Sometimes what sounds better is not always feasible, given money, power and space considerations.
I don't doubt for a minute that they make a difference. But is it enough of a difference? If he had the money I'm sure he'd buy better mics for stealth anyway.
My original point was that the 853's will not take a direct 48v Phantom source. Direct. You need to buy an adapter, which makes it INdirect. Again, the whole 48v never gets to the mic, it's stepped down to ~10v no matter how you slice it.
My 853's have never given me mechanical clipping (what you get when you don't have enough phantom power), even at some of the loudest shows I've been to. But then again, I haven't done much stealthing. I prefer to tape bands that are OK with it. (another topic for another thread)
BTW, I'd love to see anyone TRY and stealth a ua-5 in their pants. :)
-
Ok... so you do get a higher SPL tolerance with the AT Phantom adapters. Perhaps that's the difference between 9 volts (battery box) and 10 (effective output of the phantom adapters). But still, he has no phantom source. He's got the d8 and wants the mics and has no more money beyond that at this point. Telling him to buy phantom adapters when he doesn't have a phantom source is not helping the originator of this post. Sometimes what sounds better is not always feasible, given money, power and space considerations.
no doubt, but in RAT6666's last post he sounded like he was still interested in the digimodUA-5. That's why I stuck with my recommendation.
I don't doubt for a minute that they make a difference. But is it enough of a difference? If he had the money I'm sure he'd buy better mics for stealth anyway.
Is it enough of a difference? We should be hearing from Nick soon, I hope. What's the next step up? mk4s? ak40s? 603s? that's only a $1-2000 increase
My original point was that the 853's will not take a direct 48v Phantom source. Direct. You need to buy an adapter, which makes it INdirect. Again, the whole 48v never gets to the mic, it's stepped down to ~10v no matter how you slice it.
you didn't say "direct" in your original post, but that makes a lot more sense now.
My 853's have never given me mechanical clipping (what you get when you don't have enough phantom power), even at some of the loudest shows I've been to. But then again, I haven't done much stealthing. I prefer to tape bands that are OK with it. (another topic for another thread)
:-X
BTW, I'd love to see anyone TRY and stealth a ua-5 in their pants.
maybe porphery can do it ;)
no hard feelings, joe, just a difference in opinion and ears
peace
~schwills
-
BTW, I'd love to see anyone TRY and stealth a ua-5 in their pants. :)
I may just try it this year for SXSW. We'll see.
I think all people were trying to do in this thread is make sure the information provided is accurate. I wasn't recommending the AT version of the mics. I didn't even read the original question posed. I just wanted to chime in and make sure that whoever reads the thread doesn't walk away with incorrect info.
J
-
Schwillber:
Ok... so we're straight. No more flames.
So I guess we definitely agree that the 853's don't suck.
-
Schwillber:
Ok... so we're straight. No more flames.
So I guess we definitely agree that the 853's don't suck.
haha, from my experience, definitely not!
-
Hey, I'm back! And this thread is actually going places... Good deal.
I am interested in the digimod UA-5. However, I don't think I have much need for either the full-blown warm or presence mods, though (out of budget).
What are the AT853Rx's I keep hearing about? Is this a different mic pair than the SP 853's with Phantom power that I'm looking at, or is it the technical term for that specific setup?
As far as stealthing a UA-5... I could possibly stuff it in the bottom of my girlfriends handbag.
-
rat666, if you get the UA5 from oade you can always send it back to them in the future for the warm/presence mods upgrade. if you get the UA5 somewhere else...your s.o.l.
-
Hey, I'm back! And this thread is actually going places... Good deal.
I am interested in the digimod UA-5. However, I don't think I have much need for either the full-blown warm or presence mods, though (out of budget).
What are the AT853Rx's I keep hearing about? Is this a different mic pair than the SP 853's with Phantom power that I'm looking at, or is it the technical term for that specific setup?
As far as stealthing a UA-5... I could possibly stuff it in the bottom of my girlfriends handbag.
The SP-CMC-4s are similar to the AT853a mics sold in pairs only by Sound Professionals. They are most often seen with both mic cables modified into an 1/8" stereo mini termination and are powered by a Sound Professionals battery box.
The AT853Rx are an unmodified mic that one can get from most Audio Technica dealers. Each mic has an in-line phantom power adapter (AT8533x) that plugs directly into a preamp jack.
-
How much gain do you get with the d8 alone? Is the preamp noisy? How is it compared to AD20?