Topic: Hi everyone! I'm my band's A/V guy. I have a question for you all...

[SmokinJoe]

In general, microphones put out very small voltages (measured in one-thousandths of a volt).  To get this tiny voltage recorded requires 4 things:
- a power supply to power the mics (in your case the 907 has a battery, but others need power from the preamp)
- amplification from millivolts to around 1 volt (the preamp)
- an analog to digital converter
- storing the digital data to media (mini disk/flash card/hard drive).

Your mini-disk recorder, and the R-09 have all these steps built in, which is convenient, and actually these devices do a pretty good job of all three steps.  But space is tight in those little recorders, and ultimately design engineers need to make some compromises.  In our quest towards the perfect recordings, many people feel that the quality of the recording improves as you replace these stages with external pieces of gear, which probably don't have some of those design compromises.

Whether it's worth the expense and bulkiness of external gear is up to the individual.  I think in your case it probably isn't a concern at this point.  The R-09HR is a good piece of gear.

I don't think the R-09HR is available yet.  It's a brand new piece of gear. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R09HR/ says
It's Arriving Soon! We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Edirol and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 6/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Edirol.

[Ardge]

Thank you SJ.  I understand now. 

RJ

[jacobmyers]

<snip>
Whether it's worth the expense and bulkiness of external gear is up to the individual.  I think in your case it probably isn't a concern at this point.  The R-09HR is a good piece of gear.

I don't think the R-09HR is available yet.  It's a brand new piece of gear. http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/R09HR/ says
It's Arriving Soon! We've confirmed this item will ship soon from Edirol and should arrive in our warehouse the week of 6/08. Go ahead, place your order now. We will ship it immediately, the very same day we receive it from Edirol.

 That's a good  (and succinct) description of the digital signal path (and why improvements on "prosumer" gear are often necessary), Joe. The compromises, at least in MiniDisc gear (which I have years of experience with), seem to be all about size and unit cost (smaller being "better" in both respects). I used a lot of MD gear because it was cheap (second-hand). The sound quality was never what I'd call "good" (though it's certainly "good enough for rehearsal" or "good enough for a demo"). The gear itself was finicky and not at all robust (which is why I went through "a lot" of it). Thankfully, solid-state devices are now available that are affordable and a more-than-adequate replacement (actually, a considerable upgrade) for my MD gear. Edirol, FWIW, doesn't make any of the gear I'm considering at this time.

 Once you start talking about upgrading the microphone (a <u>very</u> important upgrade, considering my personal experience with the MS907), every "R-09" that Edirol makes (and pretty much every "bargain" EEPROM recorder) is completely inadequate. The preamps are going to be a little more noisy simply because they're unbalanced. And plugging an XLR mike into a 1/8" jack is, frankly, as silly as circumventing the grounding lead on a wall plug. That said; I've DONE the XLR > 1/8" thing and it seems to raise the noise floor quite a bit when compared to the same microphone into XLR. The real question here is "is it worth the expense to buy a higher-quality recorder than Edirol's R-09xx?"

 Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

[Ardge]

Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

Thanks for your response.

RJ

[sunjan]

Ardge - FWIW, after years of using MD equipment myself, I wouldn't even consider buying another recorder with a single 1/8" TRS microphone input. But that's just my two cents.

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

If you go the high-end route that Jacob is pointing out, we're talking about an entirely different universe.

As SmokinJoe pointed out: if you don't plan on stealthing, and have access to AC, there's no need to restrict yourself to ultra-portable all-in-one gear.

You could get the whole hog:
a set of open mics with XLR connectors (maybe starting from $150 for a pair)
+ one of the larger/non-stealthable units like FR2-LE, R-44, 660/671, that would be more versatile and sturdy

How does that sound?

Or maybe I'm missing the point why you have to stick to a small all-in-one unit?

[jacobmyers]

What options to I have?  The DR-1?  I've heard that that unit is very "glitchy." 

Thanks for your response.

RJ

 With the DR-1, you have the same problem as with the R-09; the 1/8" input. The Zoom H4 is, AFAIK, the bottom end of the XLR-bearing compact digital recorders, at ~$300. I have used Zoom equipment before and won't make the mistake again. If you have access to AC power while you're recording (and it would seem that you do), and your budget is <$400, Fostex's MR8-HD (or MR8-Mk.II with a few memory cards) could be a fine choice.

 The MR8-HD's headphone amp (like many built-in headphone amps on multitrack recorders) is deceptively noisy when you're pushing the gain (to hear "what you're recording" over ambient sound with poorly isolated headphones, for instance). The sound that's being recorded isn't as noisy as what you'd hear on the headphones. That's not to say that the preamps of this machine aren't a little noisy (because they are if you're pushing them to make up for low-gain microphones). Phantom power on this machine requires navigation of the software menus (instead of a hardware switch) and that took some getting used to.

 That said, I've captured many acceptable recordings using one of these machines. The MR8 can record four tracks simultaneously, which means that you can do SBD/AUD matrix recordings (which, if well-engineered, can certainly sound "better than being there"). It's also an "eight track" recorder, so it can help to keep you out of the "poor house" if you want to produce your own demo CD. Engineering methods that circumvent the limitations of the MR8 recorders are a matter for another thread (and may be outside the realm of this forum).

 If you "must" have something "small, simple, and battery-powered", as I must, the PMD660 (as sunjan mentioned) can be found in "stock" trim for under $300 if you're willing to buy a used one. Oade Brothers and Busman Audio both do modifications to these machines that improve the sound quality of the preamp stage from "decent" (as stock) to "impressive" (as modified). I haven't used one personally, yet, but the PMD660 is what I'll be upgrading to. I've abandoned multi-track recording (for philosophical reasons) but have been known to mix stuff that other people have recorded if they ask me politely (or if I played on the recording). 

 If you "must" have 24-bit (24/96), which is another thing I've forsworn (mostly because the majority of my recordings are still destined for CD), the sky (or an arm and a leg) really is the limit. I mean; a "decent" machine (FR2-LE, PMD-671) would eat much of your entire budget ($800) and a "really good" machine can set you back $3k. This is what I presume that sunjan meant when writing that portable "pro" recorders are "an entirely different universe". Whatever you choose, RJ, Good Luck!

[rastasean]

How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol? 

you can only expect the recording to be as good as their/your playing. i've heard crappy recordings from nice recorders only because the music sucked. make sure you're playing something good and you're on the right track.

[SmokinJoe]

Where are you located?  You might be able to get someone to stop over to one of your practice sessions with some gear so you can hear their gear and your gear, and make you own decisions.  I think sometimes these forums do more to confuse people than they help them.  A lot of different people have different opinions, which contradict other peoples opinions, including my own.

With respect to the question How much better can I expect my band's recordings to be once I upgrade from MD to the Edirol? It will be an improvement, but I expect you will secretly say to yourself "Gee, I just spent $400 for this, and I was expecting more improvement than what I got".  The R-09 is a good piece of gear, and the R-09HR should be at least as good.  But the Sony MD isn't junk either.  If the MD is a hassle and you want a new recorder, then that's fine, but don't be surprised if you don't see an enormous improvement in sound quality.

I think you will see your biggest improvement when you upgrade your mics.

[Scooter]

getting away from the compression of the MD, and the typically analog transfers as opposed to digi that usually comes with MD, are a def improvement.  And like stated above, better mics will get you an improvement as well.