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Author Topic: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder  (Read 25161 times)

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Offline dallman

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #30 on: June 09, 2023, 11:33:49 AM »
"I know what 24 and 32 bit mean, just had never heard of this "float" until very recently and don't know what that really means."

It means you never have to set gain levels again.   

"To put it in perspective, 16-bit audio is capable of recording sound with a dynamic range of up to 96.3 decibels. 24-bit audio recordings can capture a dynamic range of up to 144.5 dB. Meanwhile, 32-bit float audio can capture the absolutely ludicrous range of up to 1,528 dB. That’s not only massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio, but it’s beyond the scale of what even counts as a sound on Earth."  https://www.wired.com/story/32-bit-float-audio-explained/

32-bit float is indeed a useful improvement but not the massive savior it is made out to be. 1528 dB of digital resolution is really not "massively beyond the scope of 24-bit audio" which has 144dB of resolution, as there does not exist an analog source with more than about 130dB of dynamic range, in theory. In reality, any live concert recording, even a SBD, has a dynamic range of around 100 dB at best, so the advantages over the common 24-bit interfaces, with levels set conservatively, are limited. Audience recordings are more like 70 dB dynamic range with the ambient crowd noise
This misses part of the point. For me, the advantages of 32Bit Float are most noticeable when the range of a recorded piece is dramatic. I was recording a show last week where the band abandoned the stage and mics and did three songs busking in the audience with no amplification. The first song farthest away from me, I could not even hear. Each song got closer to where i was recording, but for this segment the band was a violin, tambourine and vocal with no amplification. Some storytelling too, which was just impossible to hear. I boosted that part of the show over 20dB and there was no added noise at all. The wave form went from virtually a straight line to full sized, and the sound was superb. Music sweet and vocals clear. It was amazing. I know there are lots who say 32Bit float is unnecessary, but it comes in handy and does no harm. I do not think it is being hails as a massive savior. It is just better than 24Bit as 24 was better than 16.
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Offline unidentified

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2023, 01:28:54 PM »
Concur 100 percent with the above

Offline grawk

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2023, 02:31:14 PM »
32 bit is a godsend when you're not in a position where you can check your levels at all
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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2023, 03:16:21 PM »
I totaly agree with Dallman.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2023, 04:55:47 PM »
Without getting too technical.. with 32bit-float recording the real-world dynamic range of the recording is determined by either the limits of the microphones or the the analog input stage of the recorder, whichever is less.  Although neither of those exceed the ~144dB dynamic range of the 24bit-fixed file format*, the absence of any recording trim controls in 32bit-float mode eliminates the possibility of error in setting initial input trim.

In reality, when recording content of low or typical loudness it shields folks from worrying about recording at what would otherwise seem very low input trim settings where the the meters are barely registering.  The important thing is not really the 32bit file format itself (24bits is more than enough) but a good enough analog input stage and the design of the ADC in the recorder. 

Using 32bit-float will require level setting (normalization) and file format conversion afterward, but eliminates level setting in the heat of the moment, be it necessary or not.

Perhaps ironically, it actually prevents tapers from "running levels hot", as many have historically preferred for reasons good or otherwise.  Using a recorder in 32-bit mode, "running hot" can only be achieved within an external preamp.


*A quick search indicates that real-world dynamic range capability of the SD Mixpre recorders is around 142db, the Zoom F series around 131db.
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Offline 2X2

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #35 on: June 09, 2023, 06:12:44 PM »

*A quick search indicates that real-world dynamic range capability of the SD Mixpre recorders is around 142db, the Zoom F series around 131db.

by standard measurement 142 dB is impossible. the standard 150 kohm  input noise measurements yields a maximum value of 131 dBu/133 dBv, as even sound devices acknowledges

https://www.sounddevices.com/microphone-preamp-noise/

"EIN is helpful as it removes gain from the equation and makes apples-to-apples comparisons easier. EIN is expressed in dBV or dBu. The lower the number, the better the EIN. This number is properly measured using 150 ohms as an input terminator. The very best EIN that can be achieved is -133 dBV, since this is noise purely from a 150 ohm resistor."

Perhaps there is some yet-unknown input source with greater than 142 dB of range, that they are using to derive this number, or they somehow have a dual-ranging switching analog circuitry similar to the multi-range ADCs

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #36 on: June 09, 2023, 06:38:26 PM »
Thanks for that clarification, which further emphasizes the basic point.
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Offline heathen

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2023, 07:16:10 PM »
I wonder if a lesson to be learned from this discussion is that even when recording in 24 bit some of us would be surprised how low we can get away with setting our levels.
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Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #38 on: June 10, 2023, 10:16:13 AM »
Try 12db peaks at a noisy venue for 24 bit.
In fact, I'll do that tonight...

Is anyone still pulling at 96kHz or 192?
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #39 on: June 10, 2023, 04:52:36 PM »
Try 12db peaks at a noisy venue for 24 bit.
In fact, I'll do that tonight...

Is anyone still pulling at 96kHz or 192?

^^I shoot for -18dB peaks running a MixPre-6 (V1) in 24bit/192. I'm recording classical/opera. Sometimes someone will decide to get a lot louder, and the ambient noisefloor is significantly higher than the noisefloor of the MixPre at -18 after I bring it up in post, so no cost to having the extra safety buffer as far as I can tell. To achieve this, I'm giving most mics around 20-25dB of gain, which happens to be right around where we maximize S/N ratio on most recorders according to the Schoeps talks this year anyways.
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Offline Ozpeter

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2023, 02:51:04 PM »
For me, it's chiefly a matter of not needing to set levels, although in the old days I used to enjoy getting to the end of a classical music recording with the a peak level of 0.5dB.  The brinkmanship would keep me awake during the more tedious recitals.  I am still awaiting the Zoom M3 ordered months ago, which doesn't even bother with a display of any kind.  Just a power button and a record button, and that's it (more or less).  Welcome to the future.

Offline DavidPuddy

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2023, 07:05:33 PM »
Here's a plus for 32bit based on my  >:D experience last night. I forgot to lock the recorder (PCM-A10) and when I checked my levels via phone 10 mins into the first act, levels were maxed and I was hard brickwalling.

Had I been using a 32 bit recorder (like the Deity or F3), this would been recoverable. Luckily I only lost 10 minutes and none of the headliner.
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Offline robgronotte

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2023, 08:49:08 PM »
For me, it's chiefly a matter of not needing to set levels, although in the old days I used to enjoy getting to the end of a classical music recording with the a peak level of 0.5dB.  The brinkmanship would keep me awake during the more tedious recitals.  I am still awaiting the Zoom M3 ordered months ago, which doesn't even bother with a display of any kind.  Just a power button and a record button, and that's it (more or less).  Welcome to the future.

I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

Offline SMsound

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2023, 09:32:53 PM »
I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

It's Zoom's camera-mounted shotgun mic that has its own builtin 32 bit recorder and M/S decoder. I expect the recorder may be similar to the F3, though I haven't compared specs, except that M3 is a self-contained mic + recorder system/not for external mics. Haven't tried it, but it has to be way better than those garbage rode mini shotguns I see on everyone's camera around  LA.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Deity PR-2 Pocket Recorder
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2023, 09:54:48 PM »
I googled Zoom M3 and I just got a microphone.  Any info about the recorder?

It's Zoom's camera-mounted shotgun mic that has its own builtin 32 bit recorder and M/S decoder. I expect the recorder may be similar to the F3, though I haven't compared specs, except that M3 is a self-contained mic + recorder system/not for external mics. Haven't tried it, but it has to be way better than those garbage rode mini shotguns I see on everyone's camera around  LA.

The recorder part might be great, but I don't think we have many data points to judge the quality of Zoom's mic designs other than the modular models made for the H series, and we can't really test the quality of those independent of the recorders they attach to with their proprietary connection. Rode makes some excellent mics at their higher price tiers, but his M3 might be no better than the cheap Rode mini shotguns. For either product, they probably aren't marketing to the same people who might buy a Sanken CMS-50.
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