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Author Topic: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4  (Read 45493 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #105 on: March 13, 2025, 11:11:45 AM »
Where it isn't possible to locate the center mic(s) forward of the split omnis, is there any guidance on how much delay to apply to the omins in post to mimic the offset? e.g. sound moves 4 inches in about 0.3 milliseconds.

Best to just try it and see how it sounds.  20cm or ~8" equates to around half a millisecond.  Try more, try less.  Go with whatever works.

Remember that delay is different than physical spacing, except for wave-front arrival from a single direction, so in addition to listening to it's effect on the main sound of interest arriving stage and PA, also listen for the effect on reverberance, audience, and rear and side sound arrival.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline mccordo

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #106 on: March 13, 2025, 05:17:47 PM »
After many years of 4 channel recording and recently getting into OMT-4 with cards and omnis, this was my first time trying OMT-6 with DPA 2012 cards, DPA 4061 CORE omnis and AKG ck63 nBob actives hypers.

https://archive.org/details/lettuce2025-03-07.DPA-AKGMatrix

Lettuce
3/7/2025
Suwannee Amp Jam #1
Spirit of Suwannee Music Park
Live Oak, FL

Source: Ch 1-2: DPA 2012 (DIN/Ch 1-2) + Ch 3-4: DPA 4061-OC-C (36" Split/Ch 3-4) + Ch 5-6: AKG ck63 (XY) > nBob actives > MixPre > MixPre-6 (24/48) > SD Card
Location: FOB/DFC (On stand @ ~7.5')
Mics: DPA 2012 Cards, DPA 4061-CORE Omnis, AKG ck63 Hypercards, AKG ck61 Cards, 2x AKG nBob Actives, 2x AKG C460B,MJE-384K Roadster (Michael Joly modded caps), Audix M1280 Hypercards
Pres: Grace Design Lunatec V2, SoundDevices MixPre, Edirol UA-5, Church Audio CA-9200, Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: SoundDevices MixPre-6, SoundDevices MixPre-3, 2x Tascam DR-100mkII, Zoom F3, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10, Deity PR-2

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #107 on: March 14, 2025, 04:34:21 PM »
^ Thanks for the link. What are your thoughts about it and how it compares to what you've been doing with 4 channels?

I gave a brief listen at lunch today streaming archive>phone>cheap USB-dongle-dac>SennHD650, and found I needed to apply some EQ using the Archive WinAmp player, after which it sounded nice.  Used a smooth sine-like curve, flat at both extremes and at 1kHz, down below 1kHz in the high-bass/mids, up above 1kHz in the presence range.  Not an overly unusual correction for live concert recordings, but a bit more than I typically use.  Not sure how much of that is due to the response of my playback chain using the cheap dongle, the responses of the directional mics, or mic array geometry.  If you run this again and have the ability to do so, try spacing the 2012 pair spaced wider than DIN to leave room for the X/Y pair in the center.  In my mixes the omnis + center pair get balanced first, and the wider than normal near-spaced pair adds sort of a zoomed-in upfront presence boost which can at times be somewhat SBD-like.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #108 on: March 14, 2025, 05:44:40 PM »
[snip..] Regarding center pair config and x/y vs m/s:
When m/s angle is just right and level in mix correct I think it's my favorite.
And x/y pas is drastically easier in the field and post.

I seldom record one show on its own lately, more likely tours/serieses, so the post production time investment is multiplied many fold.

For me, x/y ftw.
[snip..] Last weekend while taping I had l a lot of thoughts on X/Y versus M/S in the center position running through my head, and of possible modular optimizations of my setup.  More in a later post to follow..

Rehash on thoughts about the center coincident pair..

For PA-amplified taping, X/Y might be best. 
> Tends to work well with a standard 90-deg X/Y angle.
> May be further optimized by PAS angling each X/Y directional mic to be directly on-axis with the PA on each side, possibly in combination with a stereo width adjustment afterward to optimize playback image.
> Doesn't require a fig-8 mic.
> Doesn't require any decoding (unless you count making a stereo width adjustment)

Otherwise M/S:
> More compact and easier to mount (for me at least, using two mics in parallel or a single-body M/S mic requiring only a single mic clip and single 5-pin XLR cable).
> No need to consider/configure X/Y angle at setup. 
> May be best for OMT6+ where the Mid mic serves double duty as the center mic of the near-spaced L/C/R stereo triplet.
> Less need for a matched pair.
> Side channel added to taste (essentially the same as making an X/Y stereo width adjustment, except it forces one to do so).
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #109 on: March 14, 2025, 06:31:05 PM »
Where I was thinking of taking my OMT8 setup-

I like the AT BP4029 Mid/Side shotgun I've been using in the center for the past year or so.  Along with providing the sound I wanted (a more SBD-like center with increased presence and reach) it's convenient and has been working well. But at 15" long it's a bit large. I'd like something shorter.  Also, there are times where I'd like to change the pattern of the Mid along with the pattern of the flanking L/R mics in the near-spaced L/C/R triplet.

So first of all, I'm thinking I'll set it up to easily swap in/out the significantly shorter M/S pair I was using previously (DPA 4098 Mid / Niaint X8 Side).   I keep that pair gaff-taped together so that it acts like a single integrated M/S mic and  is very compact, fitting inside a single Movo WS60 windscreen.  Now thinking I may make a short, rigid, XLR 'Y' adapter (2 x 3-pin XLR-F > single 5-pin XLR-M) to enable use of the same 5-pin cable and single mic clip for either center pair.   Will also make swaping in/out different fig-8s and different Mid mics easy.

I'd use that feature to adapt the rig to different situations.  Shotgun Mid where needed from farther back, supercardioid Mid when closer.

Taking it further..  is going to have to wait for a following post, gotta run.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline mccordo

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #110 on: March 15, 2025, 04:05:13 PM »
^ Thanks for the link. What are your thoughts about it and how it compares to what you've been doing with 4 channels?

I gave a brief listen at lunch today streaming archive>phone>cheap USB-dongle-dac>SennHD650, and found I needed to apply some EQ using the Archive WinAmp player, after which it sounded nice.  Used a smooth sine-like curve, flat at both extremes and at 1kHz, down below 1kHz in the high-bass/mids, up above 1kHz in the presence range.  Not an overly unusual correction for live concert recordings, but a bit more than I typically use.  Not sure how much of that is due to the response of my playback chain using the cheap dongle, the responses of the directional mics, or mic array geometry.  If you run this again and have the ability to do so, try spacing the 2012 pair spaced wider than DIN to leave room for the X/Y pair in the center.  In my mixes the omnis + center pair get balanced first, and the wider than normal near-spaced pair adds sort of a zoomed-in upfront presence boost which can at times be somewhat SBD-like.

Thanks for the input! When I was mixing the tracks, I found that adding in the XY ck63s provided more presence in the center than when I didn't include them. The mount I use for the 2012 pair is an SRS mount that isn't adjustable. I do have the original mic clips/holders that came with the set that can be used on a T-bar, so those will be in action for my next OMT-6 outing to increase the spacing.

You are definitely correct in that some EQ makes it sound better. Most everything I record just gets click removal for applause, compression, normalizing and fades. I've tried EQing in the past, but never felt comfortable with what the outcome and took it out of my workflow. Looks like it's time to start working on some EQ skills for future releases...
Mics: DPA 2012 Cards, DPA 4061-CORE Omnis, AKG ck63 Hypercards, AKG ck61 Cards, 2x AKG nBob Actives, 2x AKG C460B,MJE-384K Roadster (Michael Joly modded caps), Audix M1280 Hypercards
Pres: Grace Design Lunatec V2, SoundDevices MixPre, Edirol UA-5, Church Audio CA-9200, Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: SoundDevices MixPre-6, SoundDevices MixPre-3, 2x Tascam DR-100mkII, Zoom F3, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10, Deity PR-2

Offline checht

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #111 on: March 15, 2025, 05:02:59 PM »
^ so agree on eq being tricky.

I don't eq much except for applying a reverse curve normalization on the compressed track when using ny compression. That material is only heard when the main track gets super gquiet so not too noticeable.
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Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #112 on: March 15, 2025, 05:18:53 PM »
^ so agree on eq being tricky.

I don't eq much except for applying a reverse curve normalization on the compressed track when using ny compression. That material is only heard when the main track gets super guiet so not too noticeable.
I know we are veering OT, but I also try not to use any EQ in my OMT mixes and never used it in my cassette transfers to digital while processing. When I started on my 200+ show GD project I asked Charlie Miller for advice and he had only a few rules of thumb but no EQ was one of them. He said, "the listener can choose to use EQ on playback". fwiw
music IS love

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Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #113 on: March 17, 2025, 01:49:29 PM »
I agree with all that.  Having the listener apply whatever the EQ they need is always right.  And if it's just a straight two-mic-pair recording there also is a sort of a broad "taper documentation / comparison" argument for not EQing.  I'm not opposed to going against that to make for a more enjoyable recording, but if I do, I want to be careful about what changes I make. 

While that argument also applies here to where we are critiquing the OMT technique ourselves and our implementations of it as much as enjoying the end results, I feel it applies less broadly to OMT recordings released to the outside world, simply because by mixing multiple mic channels down to stereo in we are already engaging in a degree of taper trickery that veers away from the "straight traditional taper documentation mode" of doing things.

I've gravitated to the mics I'm currently using in part because most of the time they naturally work well in these arrays without needing EQ.  I know I can make it sound even better by applying careful EQ, but rarely end up doing it - partly because doing so is a hassle, partly because its a challenge to make sure my EQ choices will translate as intended.  But knowing what is possible and where I can take it to make it as good as possible is important to me.  And sometimes corrections are necessary and making them becomes the right thing to do.  I see it as sort of a Goldilocks situation:  In addition to the things best left for listeners to fix for themselves, there are things that can be fixed, things that should be fixed, and things best left alone.


Personally, while my ultimate goal is a recording that's well mastered so that a listener would only need to EQ to suit their playback system and listening preference, and such mastering also includes dynamics, imaging tweaks, whatever.. that shooting for perfection effort isn't happening often. 

I instead shoot for setting things up to work well enough using only the simple mixer built-into the recorder, and if I can get that to happen I'm happy. Not perfectly mastered, but good enough that only a bit of simple EQ correction, ideally via simple tone controls gets it close enough to where it needs to be for enjoyable listening.

Some recordings are more of mess and require more complex correction, more than a listener would normally be expected to make and I feel those are best fixed before getting to the listener.  Maybe they require more "surgical" EQ rather than a broad correction, or EQ to only to one set of mic channels and not the others, or different opposing EQs on different channel pairs, or whatever.

The ones that aren't a total disaster without complex correction, but also are not right enough to be enjoyable after a simple tone control / graphic EQ correction are the ones where I sometimes struggle with the decision of what to do or not.

200+ show GD project

These decisions become more poignant when working on big projects and other taper's recordings.  Handling big numbers of shows like that requires doing less simply for practical as well as philosophical reasons.  Is a lot less difficult to make a big effort when working on just a handful of one's own recordings, and even then it can be challenging to know how far to take it.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #114 on: March 17, 2025, 05:54:46 PM »
I found that adding in the XY ck63s provided more presence in the center than when I didn't include them. The mount I use for the 2012 pair is an SRS mount that isn't adjustable. I do have the original mic clips/holders that came with the set that can be used on a T-bar, so those will be in action for my next OMT-6 outing to increase the spacing.

Right on. I can see that. Lots of ways to mix these.

What strikes me is that the X/Y and DIN pairs are relatively closely positioned to each other in that setup, which can make the two pairs more likely to interact in ways that effect tonal response when they get mixed together.  A bit more spacing between the two pairs may allow them to be just different enough that they combine with less tonal interaction (if that is what's going on tonally).  I take it you are working up your mix by first balancing the omnis and 2012 DIN pair, then add in the center X/Y to taste.  If so try it the other way- start with the omnis and add the X/Y to that first, then after getting that combination nicely balanced, bring in the near-spaced 2012s to taste.  That progression order tends to work well for me both in terms of image balance and in terms of tone - the image sort of gets balanced first with omnis and center pair, and the near-spaced pair mostly adds up-front presence and energy, but also additional stereo interest.  In this way you may end up using more X/Y and somewhat less DIN than the other way around (just guessing about that), which might effect the tonal balance without EQing.  If you try it let me know if it works out any different to your ear.

Using more spacing between the 2012 pair next time if you are able will likely help both in terms of imaging and tone by getting that pair farther away from the center pair.  In moving from OMT4 to OMT6, think of the omnis + X/Y center pair part as the primary OMT4 part and the near-spaced pair as the new element being added as supplemental flavoring, even if it's the X/Y pair that is actually the new addition for you.   And in that way see if you get the additional presence, energy, and up-frontness from adding in the near spaced pair to taste, rather than from adding in the X/Y center pair instead.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline mccordo

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #115 on: Yesterday at 01:00:52 PM »
I take it you are working up your mix by first balancing the omnis and 2012 DIN pair, then add in the center X/Y to taste.  If so try it the other way- start with the omnis and add the X/Y to that first, then after getting that combination nicely balanced, bring in the near-spaced 2012s to taste.

That's exactly what I was doing. Since I generally use the 2012 DIN pair and/or 4061 omnis when taping 4-channel, I was balancing those first and then adding in the XY ck63 for more flavor. Your idea of working up the omnis and XY and then adding in the DIN pair will be my next move. I never thought of blending the sources that way, but it makes sense and I'd like to hear how that would sound. I've still got a few OMT-6 sets left from the Amp Jam, so I'll use this method with the mix on those and see what develops.
Mics: DPA 2012 Cards, DPA 4061-CORE Omnis, AKG ck63 Hypercards, AKG ck61 Cards, 2x AKG nBob Actives, 2x AKG C460B,MJE-384K Roadster (Michael Joly modded caps), Audix M1280 Hypercards
Pres: Grace Design Lunatec V2, SoundDevices MixPre, Edirol UA-5, Church Audio CA-9200, Naiant PIPsqueak
Recorders: SoundDevices MixPre-6, SoundDevices MixPre-3, 2x Tascam DR-100mkII, Zoom F3, Sony PCM-M10, Sony PCM-A10, Deity PR-2

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #116 on: Yesterday at 01:22:36 PM »
Try it both ways.  I like to go back and forth like that when working on a mix, building it up one way, tearing it back down and doing it again the other way, as that tends to lead to different choices and end results.  I may end up with two somewhat different mixes that way, both good sounding, that I can then compare against each other to gain insight into the reasons I like one more than the other.  That process also informs how I go about making future mixes.  In either case, I like to do a lot of muting and unmuting of the various stereo pairs while assessing a mix to listen for how it hangs together and better understand what each addition/subtraction is doing in the mix.
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Oddball microphone technique (OMT) - part 4
« Reply #117 on: Yesterday at 02:17:19 PM »
Boy do I have a OMT mixing story for you guys.
One final mix result is here:
https://archive.org/details/eggy2025-03-13.dpa4060akgc426ck61

I "mixed" that one by using the Mid cardioid microphone of a AKG c426 MS pair, using that as center, then added the DPA 4060 omnis which were spread about 5 feet apart, 2.5 feet from center. I then added a bit of the AKG ck61 cardioids spread about 4 feet apart, 2 feet from center in an AB pattern (facing straight at the stage). So I called it an OMT5 mix. I matched each stereo pair to be -6dB from 0, then made the Mid channel at -4dB from 0 for the final "mix". I like the sound of the vocals and ambiance but...
After posting that I thought there was not enough low end in the result, so I went to mix one where I did the Side channel manual decoding which actually made the final mix pretty different sounding.  it is almost OMT7 with the side pair made into Left/Right.
I will upload that one to LMA tonight or tomorrow and let you guys know via editing this post.



« Last Edit: Yesterday at 02:28:41 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

 

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