Topic: future of dat

[bagtagsell]

is anyone worried about DATs dying out.  Digital is the big push, but how much staying power do DATs have?

[Tim]

is anyone worried about DATs dying out. Digital is the big push, but how much staying power do DATs have?

a couple of years, tops... dat has been dying a slow death for a few years now. sony no longer makes the m1 or the r500 (or is the r300?). I'm not sure tascam is making new decks. I know awhile back (18 months?) Tascam had a press release that they were no longer making transports as when the current inventory was gone, that was it.

[wbrisette]

I know awhile back (18 months?) Tascam had a press release that they were no longer making transports as when the current inventory was gone, that was it.

The problem is the company that made the transports for the units stopped. At the time when Tascam had that announcement, they estimated they had about 3-5 years worth of inventory, that included repair parts if I remember correctly.

Even DAT tape has been harder to get. Real DAT tape (not DDS) has been limited to a couple vendors now, and my guess is that some point this will only leave Maxell or Sony. DDS isn't is much better shape really. However, all things considered, DAT still has some life, but I'm in the limited life category. That is, it isn't on life support yet, but it certainly has seen better days.

Wayne

[nickgregory]

are dds tapes really getting more difficult?  In the past few months I have been in telco providers (I work at Nortel) backup closets and they are still running primarily tape backups...

[creekfreak]

there is only one place I can find DAT in rochester, audio grade HHB. It's a dying format, I am in the process now of re-transfering all my DAT's onto DVD and making copies to insure their survival

[wbrisette]

are dds tapes really getting more difficult?  In the past few months I have been in telco providers (I work at Nortel) backup closets and they are still running primarily tape backups...

The shorter lengths are. 60 and 90 meters are not the standard any longer, and they will stop being made at some point. I think that may be another 5-10 years though, I think there's life left in a lot of the older gear.

Wayne

[spyder9]

I think Dat can be around as long as you want it.  There is still a core group out there who still love reel-to-reel.  It just means that the Dat hobby will become increasingly expensive, and numbers will dwindle to just hardcore enthusiasts.

[Tim]

I think Dat can be around as long as you want it. There is still a core group out there who still love reel-to-reel. It just means that the Dat hobby will become increasingly expensive, and numbers will dwindle to just hardcore enthusiasts.

I see your point but I think you are missing the fact that manufacturers are no longer making the parts. In a few years you won't be able to have a new transport put into your old deck. Besides the tape manufacturers are going to stop producing the tape. Quantegy just closed, the reel to reel guys are going to be feeling that in a few years, at most.

[wbrisette]

Besides the tape manufacturers are going to stop producing the tape. Quantegy just closed, the reel to reel guys are going to be feeling that in a few years, at most.

They are feeling it NOW. S.P.A.R.S. Just posted a list where you can commit to purchasing so much tape. Their hope is that they can get Quantegy to open up the production line again to make a certain amount of tape. Apparently certain lengths/widths of Reel tape are already starting to become hard to find.

Wayne

[Brian]

Emtec has already been bought.

Analog tape will always be around.......the real question is, at what cost?

[Tim]

do you think DAT tape will always be around? I certainly don't.

[heath]

Emtec has already been bought.

Analog tape will always be around.......the real question is, at what cost?

There are a few companies who will be manufacturing analog tape.  2" & 1" in particular, which is what the shortage is of.  1/4" and 1/2" has been/will always be available.  It's the larger formats that are becoming difficult to find, but that will all end soon.  As soon as I am allowed to disclose details about the companies involved in the deal, I will, but as of right now, it's hush hush.

[Brian]

do you think DAT tape will always be around?

nope!  the digital world, obviously, is moving towards hard disk recording.  sooner or later, because of technology advances in teh digital recording world, the demand for analog reels will exceed the demand for DAT and DDS tapes. when that happens, DAT and DDS tapes will cease to be produced. you said yourself that certain companies have already ended production or know when there ending production lines on DAT related products.  For the rest of time there will always be someone or some company with the ability and will to restore/repair/modify ATR's and another company will always have analog tape available because there will ALWAYS be a demand for analog sound.  With digital, why record 16bits/44.1 on a tape when you can record 24/88.2-192 on an HD inside a better constructed machine?  DAT demand is already going down because HD recording is becoming cheaper.  The cheaper it gets the more people will start forgetting about DAT.

all my guestimations but it seems like a logical path to me.

[Tim]

Brian - that's exactly what I was thinking...

[Brian]

heath,

are these companies different than any of the ones who have sent out survey's regarding this subject?

i'm pretty sure EMTEC was bought back by the company that was(still is?) B.A.S.F.  

[heath]

do you think DAT tape will always be around?

nope!  the digital world, obviously, is moving towards hard disk recording.  sooner or later, because of technology advances in teh digital recording world, the demand for analog reels will exceed the demand for DAT and DDS tapes. when that happens, DAT and DDS tapes will cease to be produced. you said yourself that certain companies have already ended production or know when there ending production lines on DAT related products.  For the rest of time there will always be someone or some company with the ability and will to restore/repair/modify ATR's and another company will always have analog tape available because there will ALWAYS be a demand for analog sound.  With digital, why record 16bits/44.1 on a tape when you can record 24/88.2-192 on an HD inside a better constructed machine?  DAT demand is already going down because HD recording is becoming cheaper.  The cheaper it gets the more people will start forgetting about DAT.

all my guestimations but it seems like a logical path to me.

excellent answer.  +t

[heath]

heath,

are these companies different than any of the ones who have sent out survey's regarding this subject?

i'm pretty sure EMTEC was bought back by the company that was(still is?) B.A.S.F.   

it depends what surveys you have seen.... 


not trying to be a d*ck.  I was just asked repeatedly to keep mymouth shut, so I will.  For now.

[Brian]

thanks bud, backatcha

my eyes and ears are peeled to the latest on this subject.  I'm getting daily updates from all  of my audio teachers.  this is like the football playoffs for them

to the PM"s we go

[heath]

Bottom line.  I use analog tape (1/4", 1/2", 1", 2") almost every day at work. I am not worried about a tape shortage.  I think everyone will be just fine once things settle down...

[hexyjones]

If I were (still) a DAT taper - this would be the year to move on to something else...save all the remaining "good" hours on your deck for transfers...

I have well over 100 DATs - most of which are trapped on the tapes...for now I rely on sneaking a transfer in on a buddy's deck now and then...and 100 is a tiny collection compared to some...

Useable media may remain available - but thats not the issue.

Its the hardware...pretty soon the parts will be gone - and think of this - a lot of D7s have been serviced over 3 times - the drain on the parts supply began a long time ago.

The industries that relied on Audio DAT have moved on...and probably adapted their archive to new media...our hobby is a relatively small market...not enough users to support the biz...

Nor will DAT enjoy the more esoteric support that analog tape nuts have given to the big reel machines...

Good riddence most will say...

[Brian]

i think you are right heath.  tape will always be around, but like I asked before....at what cost?  certainly higher than it is right now, no doubt, and it ain't that cheap right now.

[heath]

it will be pricey.  that is certain.  you can always go to the foreign markets...I believe there is some tape being made in china, and russia (i'll have to read through some old emails).  The tape is supposedly pretty good and cheaper than name brand stuff like GP9 and 900.

h

[spyder9]

I think Dat can be around as long as you want it. There is still a core group out there who still love reel-to-reel. It just means that the Dat hobby will become increasingly expensive, and numbers will dwindle to just hardcore enthusiasts.

I see your point but I think you are missing the fact that manufacturers are no longer making the parts. In a few years you won't be able to have a new transport put into your old deck. Besides the tape manufacturers are going to stop producing the tape. Quantegy just closed, the reel to reel guys are going to be feeling that in a few years, at most.

Reel-to-reelers love carcasses.  I picked up 2 Tascam 32 recorders at a local school auction last fall.  Tascam stopped making them in 1994.  They powered on, but I had no way of testing them (no tape).  Paid $25.00 for both.  Flipped them on eBay as-is for $400 total.  Hardcores in any hobby never stop.   Some go to the extent of buying the schematics from manufacturers, who view them as worthless, and make their own parts. 

[Brian]

i feel sorry for anybody who is going to get that "hardcore" on DAT that they feel the need to build their own DAT players/recorders for mere 16bit/44.1kHz recordings that can't compare to the latest digital recorders.  Who really would want to hold onto that piece of digital recording technology on a tape medium?

personally I don't think there will be such a person for DAT like there are for ATR's for all the reasons I stated in my earlier post.  Why would you want to when 24bit/88.2-192kHz recording is getting cheaper every 6months?

remember it all boils down to "how it sounds".  Analog Tape REcording is still alive because MANY engineers and producers think it sounds better.  I don't think anyone is going to defend DAT recording in the same way with respect to its successing technology.  And anybody that does, should have their ears checked

the only reason DAT might stick around is for playback?  But why?  especially when you can transfer the 1s and 0s off of a tape medium to a computer?

not trying to be an ass, it just doesn't make any sense to me that DAT's will be around forever, like ATR's and analog tape will be.

[heath]

i agree.  i would not mind having a computer for playback and recording of all my 16/44.1(48) audio.  But nothing could ever replace the sound of bass hitting Ampex 456 (or just about any 2" tape) HARD on a Studer...    

[Tim]

nicely said Brian

quick hijack: did Marcus tell you that I gave them a box of tapes?

[Brian]

box of tapes? what?  

i haven't talked to them since they were in Steamboat.  Shawn was supposed to call me back with their thoughts on my rough mix of the NYE recording, but has yet to get back to me.   you know how that goes

i'll be seeing them on 2/11.  I'd imagine they are going to give me that box but maybe they found some other poor soul who has the time to transfer them I would just like to hear some old speakeasy some time.

[Tim]

it's everything I have I think... I'll keep my eyes out though. There's also some other springfield bands in there....

[Brian]

BTW, is that Svetlana, as in Svetlana, the Russian tube manufactuer?

according to some engineers I know they are the only company building high-quality tubes these days that can actually compare to the tubes being built in teh 50s, 60s, and 70s.

[Tim]

I just put in 4 matched Svetlana el34 tubes in my amp tonight

BTW - fuck taping, this is WAY more fun

[heath]

I just put in 4 matched Svetlana el34 tubes in my amp tonight

whore 

[Brian]

oh man I bet that sounds REAL nice!  I need to start sluttin' it up on the playback end.

[Tim]

they need a looong time to burn in, about 100 hours, but the change from the stock Chinese tubes was pretty noticeable right away. My Bel Canto DAC 2 showed up today too. Sara has been gone all night so I'm getting in some serious listening time tonight.

Heath - you know it!

Brian - it's unbelievable how much more rewarding the music becomes.

[fasteddy]

I heard on NPR that quantegy (sp?) might have a buyer for it's factory and they may start production again

[ice8888]

i'll have to agree with everyone else that dat is a dying format... which i think kinda sucks.  i love having a hard copy after i tape a show.  even if it's only a backup copy for the lappy i still like having it.  just my opinion.

[heath]

i'll have to agree with everyone else that dat is a dying format... which i think kinda sucks.  i love having a hard copy after i tape a show.  even if it's only a backup copy for the lappy i still like having it.  just my opinion.

completely understandable.  hard copies are ALWAYS nice. 

[wbrisette]

remember it all boils down to "how it sounds".  Analog Tape REcording is still alive because MANY engineers and producers think it sounds better. 

As 24-bit HD recording starts becoming the norm, I think even some of those engineers and producers may start to rethink their Analog "sounds" better. Analog sounds better than DAT, I won't argue that point, in fact that's why I vinyl records STILL sell better than CDs in some countries (the US is NOT one of them). However, as we start bridging that 24/48-192 sampling rates we're starting to hear things that you couldn't hear on DAT and even things that you couldn't hear on tape.

I still think it's sad that we're seeing an end to DAT, if for no other reason than portability. Once that tape is stored in it's shell, as long as you don't submerge it, or beat the hell out of it (or of course run it over a high powered magnet), you're show is preserved. As much as I LOVE my DEVA, until I put that show on DVD-RAM I don't have the security (false or otherwise) of it not going away because the hard drive crashes.

Wayne

[heath]

Once that tape is stored in it's shell, as long as you don't submerge it, or beat the hell out of it (or of course run it over a high powered magnet), you're show is preserved.

while i agree that it is sad to see dat going away, you have to keep in mind that NO tape media is to be considered "permanent".   DAT tape, just like analog tape, can suffer from sss (sticky shed syndrome) and will deteriorate over time, even in controlled storage environments.  We are actually working on a large preservation job with one of the major labels to do preservation work on their dats, and get the information off the tapes before it's too late.   

[Brian]

without a doubt, I believe that if you do a digital recording right, it will sound just as good, if not better to some ears(because of S/N ratios i suppose) than analog.  I'm certainly not an analog purest in any sense of the form.  Hell i'm only 22 years old so technically I can't be...... didn't grow up in that period However there are some things, IMHO, that will never sound as good recorded digitally as it would recorded on analog tape.  Like an entire drum kit for example.  

However, as we start bridging that 24/48-192 sampling rates we're starting to hear things that you couldn't hear on DAT and even things that you couldn't hear on tape.

Wayne

i just can't quite agree with you there.  even at 24bit/192kHz, it's still a "repesentation" of the analog signals.  if you hear anything on that digital recording that's not on the tape(using an ATR with an extended frequency response), then that is noise inherant from the digital recording as far as I'm concerned.

[heath]

Like an entire drum kit for example. 

or a bass guitar tracked at +6 @ 250nWb/m     

[Brian]

Like an entire drum kit for example.

or a bass guitar tracked at +6 @ 250nWb/m

oh yeah....just a tad of saturation

[heath]

Like an entire drum kit for example.

or a bass guitar tracked at +6 @ 250nWb/m

oh yeah....just a tad of saturation

some time you need to find an excuse to come to PGH (concert or something) and take a trip up to our facility.  i think you'd get a kick out of it.

[Tim]

Like an entire drum kit for example.

or a bass guitar tracked at +6 @ 250nWb/m

oh yeah....just a tad of saturation

some time you need to find an excuse to come to PGH (concert or something) and take a trip up to our facility. i think you'd get a kick out of it.

I know he would

[Brian]

i'd love to be able to check out the studio sometime!

excuse = internship? I need to intern with somebody in order to graduate and I am still looking around. i know we went through this before but i wasn't able to come out for the time frame you were seeking one; not too mention my resume wasn't too expansive at the time.  let me know and we can PM each other details.

[Kevin Straker]

I disagree. The dat market is driven by server backups, not by audio use. 4MM dds tapes are still cheaper than dlt tapes, i think. DDS2 tapes may get harder to find, but generally speaking the 4mm format will remain for a while (IMO).

[hexyjones]

I disagree. The dat market is driven by server backups, not by audio use. 4MM dds tapes are still cheaper than dlt tapes, i think. DDS2 tapes may get harder to find, but generally speaking the 4mm format will remain for a while (IMO).

You nailed it..."driven...not by audio use" = hence audio DAT's demise...

It's about the hardware...not the media...those DDS RAID drives arent much use when your D7 craps out...

[heath]

Also, for server backup, I think more folks are going the LTO route as opposed to dat.  Much more storage capability...

[nic]

Also, for server backup, I think more folks are going the LTO route as opposed to dat.  Much more storage capability...

exactly. LTO and DLT drives are much more common place today than DDSx drives are.
with large HD storage so cheap it makes DDSx drives look like floppies.
we are in the middle of upgrading/eplacing all of our servers at work and while we weren't exactly looking for DDSx drives, they weren't even a option from the manufacturer!