Topic: If I don't need to stealth and can access the soundboard, what to recommend?

[RoganSarine]

Hey guys,

There are several loud rock/alternative/metal venues (~100 dB +/- 20 dB or so) that I now have permission to not be stealthed and can get a direct soundboard feed (although, most soundboard operators in these venues are questionable -- so being able to do it all without the soundboard would be ideal). I was wondering though, what would be the best way to get some great quality audio? Assume I have 4 budgets of $250, $500, $750, and $1000 or something similar -- I'm trying to gauge where the "sweet point" of spending money and getting good quality audio/video I could sell to bands.

I'm currently using a Sony PCM M10 and CA Cardoid mics. Generally, I get the ambient sound from my multiple cameras around the entire room as they don't tend to clip. So, while these microphones are pretty good, I'm wondering how much more I would have to spend, what I would have to buy, and how I would position the equipment to make it sound great.

Thanks in advance for any insight.

[beatkilla]

What cameras are you using? I would not use any camera audio but use your CA audience mics to M10 and get another M10 for  Soundboard feed and mix and synch later in post.

[acidjack]

In general, straight SBDs are a mistake. They are mixed for house sound (to sound good in the room), not to sound good as a standalone recording. Guitar amps are often not mic'd at all and therefore don't go through the board, or will be much much lower in the mix. Sometimes an SBD will be all vox and drums. 

These budgets highlight the fact that it's tough to really get a great sounding set of mics AND multi-channel capability, since the multi-channel decks generally used here still run north of $500.  But, if you don't make that a priority, there are tons of great sounding mics that pair nicely with a naiant littlebox, which can run into your M10. 

$250 - stick with what you have (the CA11 and M10). If you are really set on trying 4-channel with SBDs, get a Tascam DR2D for $200.  Folks elsewhere on here have explained how to do a 4-track recording with it, though it is not as easy as with a bigger 4-channel deck.  You can run the CA11 and a board feed though you will probably need some attenuator cables for the board feed.

$500 - I'd probably upgrade to open taping mics and a preamp.  You can get some Studio Projects C4s or Nak300s for $200 and a Naiant littlebox for about $250 and run that into the M10.   You'd need to spend the rest on a stand and mounts and cables which will put you a little past $500.  Or, get a DR2D ($200) and upgrade your CA-11s to some CA-14s ($150?)

$750 - if you're still mostly obsessed with doing SBDs, get a used Edirol R-44 or a Tascam DR-680 and run the CA11s and a board feed into that.   If not, I'd probably say get some Busman BSC1 mics ($500 new) or a comparable set of good used mics and the naiant littlebox and run that into the M10.  Again, with cables and a stand added in you'd be slightly over budget unless you buy used.   If it were me, I'd do the latter.

$1000 - same deal. At this level you can afford either a new multichannel deck and some very inexpensive mics (i.e., Tascam DR680+Studio Project C4s used comes to about $1000) or a pretty nice rig with some used mics.  I'd probably say get some better used mics and littlebox and run that into the M10 still.   Things you could probably afford would be Peluso CEMC6, used AKG 460s, used AKG 391s, etc.  There are some 391s in the Yard Sale still today, and I think some 460s maybe too.

I'd probably get a nice open-taping stereo rig, and then if you want to play around with SBD, just get something really cheap like a used iRiver or even one of the very basic new SD recorders for around $100. 

[rhinowing]

Have you thought about installing mics at any of the venues?

[RoganSarine]

In general, straight SBDs are a mistake. They are mixed for house sound (to sound good in the room), not to sound good as a standalone recording. Guitar amps are often not mic'd at all and therefore don't go through the board, or will be much much lower in the mix. Sometimes an SBD will be all vox and drums. 

These budgets highlight the fact that it's tough to really get a great sounding set of mics AND multi-channel capability, since the multi-channel decks generally used here still run north of $500.  But, if you don't make that a priority, there are tons of great sounding mics that pair nicely with a naiant littlebox, which can run into your M10. 

I'd probably get a nice open-taping stereo rig, and then if you want to play around with SBD, just get something really cheap like a used iRiver or even one of the very basic new SD recorders for around $100.

Yeah, I know about the woes of SBD's. It's not that I want to per ce, it's just that sometimes it works (and I was only going to use it if I absolutely NEEDED too... like, I know not connecting to the SBD is the best option). I just want to be able to get good enough audio that, for instance, could be put on a live DVD (just an example) with still sounding good enough not to piss people off. I understand a Live DVD has thousands of dollars of equipment, but I'm assuming I can get appreciable close to an acceptable quality.

The CA's are good, I was just wondering if I could squeeze anymore fidelity out with an open rig system.

@acidjack it looks like getting the $500-750 option will be the best way to go, right? What would you say would be the better fidelity vs. price cost? As I say later, I'm absolutely amateur at open rig systems... I would still have to figure out how to setup all the mics in a room to get some solid audio. Either way, I'm looking at getting jmbell's stuff that he has selling in the yard sale. Nak 300's with a little box.

Have you thought about installing mics at any of the venues?

I'm not quite sure you mean about installing mics at the venues. Like, it would either be an open rig with mounts (which I wouldn't necessarily call installing) or do you mean legitimately perma-mount mics at the venues. The only reason I don't want to do the latter is because there are several venues I'd have to do this for which would get costly if I don't keep dismantling everything everytime.

I'm allowed to setup as much equipment as I want at these venues during the sound check before the doors open, so really... setting stuff up is an option. I just don't know much about open rigs -- like what is good and what will give me better sound.

[beatkilla]

Spending more money does not guarantee you better sound quality. What do you dislike about the sound you have been getting? Most likely it is poor mic placement.I think better mic positioning and adding a SBD feed will get you what your after.I always get a feed from the soundboard to mix with my audience mics and suggest you give it a try as well.

[admkrk]

Most likely it is poor mic placement.

which is my guess also.

there's no reason you can't mount little mics to a clamp or stand. a diy t-bar would only be limited to your imagination and not need near the stability with the mics you already have as it would hanging large diaphram mics. of course if you just want new gear disregard this post.   

[yltfan]

-- I'm trying to gauge where the "sweet point" of spending money and getting good quality audio/video I could sell to bands.

Bad idea, in my opinion. Lots of bands, venues, and other folks frown on this.

[beatkilla]

I don't see anything wrong with doing this for local bands who maybe can't even afford to record a demo.Film there show with High quality audio and now the band has something to sell at there merchandise table.But yeah other than that.........

[acidjack]

@acidjack it looks like getting the $500-750 option will be the best way to go, right? What would you say would be the better fidelity vs. price cost? As I say later, I'm absolutely amateur at open rig systems... I would still have to figure out how to setup all the mics in a room to get some solid audio. Either way, I'm looking at getting jmbell's stuff that he has selling in the yard sale. Nak 300's with a little box.

Have you thought about installing mics at any of the venues?

I'm not quite sure you mean about installing mics at the venues. Like, it would either be an open rig with mounts (which I wouldn't necessarily call installing) or do you mean legitimately perma-mount mics at the venues. The only reason I don't want to do the latter is because there are several venues I'd have to do this for which would get costly if I don't keep dismantling everything everytime.

I'm allowed to setup as much equipment as I want at these venues during the sound check before the doors open, so really... setting stuff up is an option. I just don't know much about open rigs -- like what is good and what will give me better sound.

Really dependsd.  I think Nak300s + Littlebox is going to sound a lot better than Church CA-11s.  Just me personally, though I've owned the Naks and not the CA-11s.  The other thing you could do is just do a small upgrade on your Church system, like to the better but less stealthy CA-14, and spend the rest on a good 4-channel deck.  CA-14 + good placement + DR2D would let you do everything you need to do; if you used an HQ multitrack like an R-44 or DR-680 your stuff would be even better.

But others are right, poorly placed mics (like mics mounted on a moving video camera) will sound bad whether than are $30 or $3000.

[RoganSarine]

-- I'm trying to gauge where the "sweet point" of spending money and getting good quality audio/video I could sell to bands.

Bad idea, in my opinion. Lots of bands, venues, and other folks frown on this.

I just want to be able to get good enough audio that, for instance, could be put on a live DVD (just an example) for bands to sell with still sounding good enough not to piss people off.

@Acid Thanks, I may look into the CA-14's in the future also. I was just wondering where I could go with this if/when I start upgrading.

Although, it might be bad mic placement (even though I've tried several positionings). But, basically, the sound to me just sounds very hollow. I try getting some of the dynamic range back through messing with the EQ and doing some minor compression tweaks, but I can't for the life of me get that fidelity I want. I know what I want in my head will probably never be achieved, but I'm just wondering what my options were.