Topic: W.T.F. is an 'N-Box'?

[groovon]

And what is the main idea behind it? I've seen it mentioned here, but I never could find a link or a picture describing it.

Can somebody please enlighten me??

(old fogey that I am...) 

Cheers
Dave

[page]

A "nick box". it's used as a replacement for the schoeps cmc bodies so you can run mk caps > special cables > nbox > (interconnects) > recorder

The benefit is that it's cheaper then the bodies if I remember correctly, and has some gain so it can be used with smaller recorders without taking a hit on noise. Favored by folks who stealth with their schoeps.

[groovon]

Thanks page, that helps some. Do you have any links? What about the same idea for AKG caps?

Cheers
Dave

[NOLAfishwater]

it is based off the principals and basic design of the Rbox (Ruetelhuber), Nick took the basic design and improved on it. The Nbox and Rbox both run off of 4 9V batteries and have RCA output.

RBOX:



Nbox:



There is also the CMR setup with Tinybox combo. Here is a good thread to read about it:
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.120

[groovon]

Fantastic - thanks for the great pics!

So, it's a remote capsule preamp. Very high impedance input, providing bias and a low output impedance... anybody got any schematics?

Would you want one of these if you already had the Schoeps preamp/mic bodies? (I am attempting to make 'umbilical cords' for mine [AKG C460B/CK61/62s]).

PS - I suppose an Nbox/Rbox would have line-level outputs, in order to bypass the mic preamps of the handheld recorder? Quite a feat - from capsule preamp to line outs, on 9V batts(!)

Cheers
Dave

[DSatz]

If the photos are an accurate indicator--I've never seen an actual N-box--the unit appears to use the front halves of a pair of Schoeps KC -- active extension cables. These each contain an FET impedance converter stage as found in Schoeps' CMC-series microphone amplifiers. Thus the N-box itself would only need to provide the polarization voltage (ca. 60 VDC) for the capsules and the bias voltage for the FETs in the cables (normally 6.2 VDC), and perhaps offer a simple output buffer stage. The socket for the capsule and the critical, low-noise FET circuit are already built into the head end of the Schoeps active cables.

But this approach wouldn't transfer readily to other manufacturers' microphones since they don't offer active cables that could be adapted in a similar way. (What people often call "active" cables here, if they're not made by Schoeps, are generally either passive or else they're meant for electret capsules and don't pass along the voltage needed for DC-polarized capsules.)

--best regards

[groovon]

DSatz - thanks! yeah, an FET or other impedance converter at the capsule would seem the key to making this work. As you say, it looks as though the 'Nbox' shown there uses the Schoeps impedance converter to do just that. Whereas the 'Rbox' in the first pic looks like it actually takes the high (10+ Megohm) impedance capsule output directly down the cable.  I wish I could see a schematic.

Dave

[groovon]

Found this on DAT heads digest...

" ...a JKLabs ECMS box and
active cables for use with AKG CK6* series caps (MG active cables are also
available).

THis is like a reutelhuber, bill box, or a vms52 for use with expensive
schoeps capsules and active cables, but utilizes relatively cheap AKG CK6*
series capsules renders them similar to Collette type buds.

The ECMS box replaces the bodies of the AKG 460/480 mic series.  It is the
mic amp.  No other pre-amp is necessary to run the mic caps (no clumsy mic
bodies in between the cables and another expensive pre-amp.  THis is a true
condenser stealth rig, perfect for unobtrusive recording, or even from the
taper's section.

This is no home brew box, it was carefully designed to improve the
efficiency of AKG caps and to exploit them to their fullest potential ( in
some peoples opinion, beyond what the AKG bodies can provide).

Any capsule that is usable with akg 460/480 series mic bodies (including
omni, card, hyper and shotgun caps) can be used with this system and the
active cables and heads provided.

 Available:
1 JKLabs Custom ECMS box, feat. Adjustable Gain, two Bass Rolloff settings,
15+++hrs of  uninterrupted operation on 2 9v internal batts... "

Anyone heard of this one? I'm finding it hard going getting any DIY info or schematics on this sort of gear. (Jealously-guarded secrets?!)

Dave

[Brian Skalinder]

Anyone heard of this one?

Also, see the Caveat Emptor section of the Yard Sale sticky post re JKLabs.

[groovon]

Thanks Brian!

[it-goes-to-eleven]

it is based off the principals and basic design of the Rbox (Ruetelhuber), Nick took the basic design and improved on it.

I would argue that the Rmod boxes have not been surpassed.

[edtyre]

it is based off the principals and basic design of the Rbox (Ruetelhuber), Nick took the basic design and improved on it.

I would argue that the Rmod boxes have not been surpassed.

I think the thinner cable and single locking connector Nick uses is a big improvement, but sound-wise they are similar.

[groovon]

The Rbox and the Nbox shown here look like they're doing two different things. The Nbox looks like it's already getting a relatively low-impedance signal from the stock Schoeps CMR capsule buffer, so no problem.

Whereas the Rbox seems to have only cables with plain connectors that (apparently) attach to a pair of unbuffered caps. I'd like to know how they do that. 

Dave

[yug du nord]

^^^I don't know much....  but I think that the Nbox and the Rbox work on the same theory.  So, I don't think that there is much difference in design.  So if you can find info on one, it might be similar to the other.  But then again.....  you probably know more than me.

[Scooter123]

In its most simplistic form, its a battery box for Schoeps mk4 and mk41s with a tiny preamp.  I'm not wild about the RCA outs, but gaffers tape fixes that.  And the box is a complete battery whore, but I've moved to rechargeables, and we'll see how they work out.  If you're serious about stealth taping, this thing is a must.

I will say this, the quality of my recordings improved 100%,  thats double,  once I went to the Schoeps > NBox rig. 

[edtyre]

Here's an Nbox for sale if you want to buy one. Good price too!

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136711.0

[groovon]

Scooter, did your Nbox come with a pair of Schoeps CMRs?

Dave

[edtyre]

Scooter, did your Nbox come with a pair of Schoeps CMRs?

Dave

Dave

The Nbox and Rbox use Schoeps KC cable ends (D Satz already explained)
Schoeps CMR's are another type of cable system that runs on lower voltage
see here : http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=132711.0

[groovon]

Yeah, same point though - the KC contains an FET impedance converter; I gather the CMR acts as a preamp as well.

(I guess I didn't spot the KC ends in the pic of the Rbox.)
 
Anyway, it's a moot point, as there's no way I can afford Schoeps, and already have a nice collection of AKGs. Just trying to figure a way to do a similar thing with my CK61/62 caps...

Dave

[Chuck]

Just trying to figure a way to do a similar thing with my CK61/62 caps...
Dave

This ought to keep you busy for a few hours...

http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,59577.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php/topic,80861.0.html
http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=93559.0

[Chris K]

Anyway, it's a moot point, as there's no way I can afford Schoeps, and already have a nice collection of AKGs. Just trying to figure a way to do a similar thing with my CK61/62 caps...

Dave

JK Labs DVC can run AKG's

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=136697.msg1778861#msg1778861

[sparkey]

What is the part number for the pieces on to which you screw the capsules?

[johnw]

http://www.posthorn.com/S_parts.html

The 2  MK connectors total $520. Not sure if they come assembled.

[it-goes-to-eleven]

http://www.posthorn.com/S_parts.html

The 2  MK connectors total $520. Not sure if they come assembled.

Indeed, they are a significant fixed portion of the cost.

The fact that posthorn actually stocks those critical components is why they get my schoeps business.  Jerry has always been a pleasure to deal with.  I believe he offers minor schoeps active repairs and cable length changes on-site (so no delays shipping to Germany), for those who aren't up to the task

[sparkey]

http://www.posthorn.com/S_parts.html

The 2  MK connectors total $520. Not sure if they come assembled.

Indeed, they are a significant fixed portion of the cost.

The fact that posthorn actually stocks those critical components is why they get my schoeps business.  Jerry has always been a pleasure to deal with.  I believe he offers minor schoeps active repairs and cable length changes on-site (so no delays shipping to Germany), for those who aren't up to the task

Cool, thanks.

[groovon]

Nice looking setup, Kris K. Is that unit still available?

How does it sound?

Cheers
Dave

[groovon]

I just stumbled upon that great saga, 'The AKG Actives Project'....


It seems this has been tried before... 

/ironic understatement off


.....still reading...

Dave

[Chuck]

I just stumbled upon that great saga, 'The AKG Actives Project'....


It seems this has been tried before... 

/ironic understatement off


.....still reading...

Dave

Yup. I had high hopes for that project at one time.

[sparkey]

Just got this from Jerry Bruck.  $62 each isn't bad at all. 

Who is the best to talk to about swapping mine out?  I wasn't happy with the condition of the threads on the connectors of the N-Box I recently bought....

> Dear Josh,
>
> The piece you need is the Schoeps SCH 360, at $62.00 each.
>
> Jerry Bruck
>

What is the part number for the pieces on to which you screw the capsules?

[it-goes-to-eleven]

I just stumbled upon that great saga, 'The AKG Actives Project'....
.....still reading...

Save your Summer and skip to the last page!

SPOILER:






 It does not end well

[willndmb]

it still blows my mind that of all the smart diy people on here no one has figured out a akg set up beside jk

[darktrain]

it still blows my mind that of all the smart diy people on here no one has figured out a akg set up beside jk

Has anyone hit up Jon at Naiant on this?

[NOLAfishwater]

it still blows my mind that of all the smart diy people on here no one has figured out a akg set up beside jk

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

[sparkey]

The 480's sound so nice, some one needs to do it.

it still blows my mind that of all the smart diy people on here no one has figured out a akg set up beside jk

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

[page]

The 480's sound so nice, some one needs to do it.

it still blows my mind that of all the smart diy people on here no one has figured out a akg set up beside jk

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Bingo. I think part of the problem is incentive. From what I gather (and I could be wrong about it). Jaime figured out that the CMR setup was a possibility, and was motivated enough to seek out help from Church to get a battery box made. I'm assuming that he paid a small premium for the one-off, plus the man hours in research. At that point, it was proving that a box was somewhat commercially viable. I think it worked out that Jon's box designs are generally cheap to get changed around to accomodate another configuration and thus a mass producable tinybox came into fashion.

I don't see anyone doing the massive research and legwork on the AKG side. JK did a box cause he saw a potential for profit, Jaime did it cause he really wanted a small setup. Both had incentives that drove them whether $ or otherwise. I just don't see anyone with that sort of incentive and drive on the AKG end doing it. 

sparkey; 5 yd penalty for bad quoting form. repeat first down. 

[it-goes-to-eleven]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

[darktrain]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

Why would it be ripping it off? People want it and they aren't made anymore from what i gather, I don't see an issue with that unless there is a patent or something like that.

[sparkey]

sparkey; 5 yd penalty for bad quoting form. repeat first down. 

We can add that to a laundry list of ts.com transgressions :-)

[NOLAfishwater]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

if someone wants to invest their own time and money to improve on a design and bring products to the marketplace, I am all for it.

[Chuck]

I've always thought that the real money in pursuing this is to get the cable and active electronics figured out, then adapt it to work with various brands of mics. Us AKG guys have been wanting to do it for a while, but if we can get the cable and active part of the design figured out, we could machine connectors that could make it usable for other brands of microphones as well.

[OFOTD]

I'll just add my $.02 on this one.

I got fairly far a few years ago with the AKG project.  Good bit of information both from techinical documents as well as product info. 

The single thing that killed this project was that the people who I approached with the idea ALL wanted 'the' cut of the pie.   One electrical design person wanted the profits or the hardware person wanted the profits.    One person was willing to share info but another was not.   Back and forth, back and forth.

The last thing that stood in the way was finances.  At the time I had more than enough people lined up to finance the project.   

re: when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?         About one second after the very first invention was created.    Chris Church isn't doing anything that hasn't been done before, Kwon ripped the Schoeps bar, any of our preamp builders aren't doing anything revolutionary.  What about our cable makers and the chopped XLR's?     

The JKLabs products seem to have been abandoned by their creator/builder.  Not one communication from him in years.   It would be different if Jon were still around but he's not.    I tried to buy the last JKLabs box in the YS a few weeks ago for the express purpose of having someone reverse engineer it.  If the seller wasn't adamant about keeping a premium price then I have no doubt it would be getting taken apart as we speak.


Anyone wanting to restart the AKG Project let me know. I still have all of the info and would love nothing more to see this project through.  But as I said in a previous thread I ain't holding my breath anymore.   Too many have committed only to have disappeared. 

[Chuck]

I for one am still interested. I'd be willing to pay money upfront if needed.
I have no desire to make a profit on this.

When Neil was working on this, I sent him my C-480 bodies. He wanted to see if there was a way to make them work "actively" like you can do with the C-460s. He found that the C-480 circuit board had a provision for making them "active" with the addition of one resistor. There may have been more to it that he didn't tell me...
That's when I got excited about this.

Like OFOTD, I am willing to share any info I have on this to move the AKG Actives Project forward.

Edit to add...

Maybe we should move this discussion back to the AKG Actives Thread?

http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=93559.150

[illconditioned]

The electronics involved really aren't a mystery, or particuarly difficult, especially given that AKG has published the schematics.  This is a problem of machine work, not electronic design.  I don't do hardly any machine work, and I'm mainly only interested in my own microphones.

Dear Jon,

I think the simpest design would be as follows:
- small battery box, includes standard capacitors, but also polarization circuit to get 60V.
- the cable would be two wires, one for each capsule, joined in a 4pin miniXLRf, mates with a 4pin miniXLRM at your battery box.  Each cable is: ground, audio, and +polarize.  4pin miniXLR is: ground, L, R, +polarize.
- hard wire (solder and epoxy behind) to a pair of CK6x capsules.  Each capsule would have the FET from a Church, AT853, or similar capsule.  Hardwire/solder to capsule, then put brass mesh shield, finish with epoxy backing.

I think that is a minimal setup.  If it worked, perhaps the mech. people would be inspired to build something that would screw to the capsules.

  Richard

[johnw]

Just got this from Jerry Bruck.  $62 each isn't bad at all. 

Who is the best to talk to about swapping mine out?  I wasn't happy with the condition of the threads on the connectors of the N-Box I recently bought....

> Dear Josh,
>
> The piece you need is the Schoeps SCH 360, at $62.00 each.
>
> Jerry Bruck
>

What is the part number for the pieces on to which you screw the capsules?

I'd email Nick re: switching those out. He is the one who built those cables and would be the only person I'd trust to service them.

[stevetoney]

I'm hoping this gets done to keep this flea-bitten old thread from burping up every sixth month.   

[NOLAfishwater]

The electronics involved really aren't a mystery, or particuarly difficult, especially given that AKG has published the schematics.  This is a problem of machine work, not electronic design.  I don't do hardly any machine work, and I'm mainly only interested in my own microphones.

if someone can make the CAD drawings I can make it happen with a local state of the art machine shop.

[illconditioned]

Nah, you need a few more components in the capsule:  the bias resistor (AKG used 10G), a coupling cap for the FET, a few resistors to divide the FET bias supply, and another 10G to bias the FET.  Also, not too many FETs that you'd want to use as a capsule FET can tolerate 60V, so you need to divide that supply as well (or maybe bias the audio pins at a lower voltage, saves parts in the capsule).  AKG's scheme is even a bit more involved than that; check their schematic for details--they have another FET as a cascode, and an IC, and some feedback . . . then the question becomes are people just going to be happy with the simplified version?  I mean you can skip the FET bias, but that will degrade headroom.  Or you could build a simpler circuit to run off of 48V phantom (~41V to the capsule), that will drop sensitivity a tad and degrade SNR (as in the CMRs).  Then you have the question of whether people are gonna be happy with the epoxied capsules.

I can crank out a pre with a 60V bias supply, that is not a problem, it's the capsule end I'm not interested in tackling.  Although there has to be demand for the 60V pre; it's expensive to bring these products to market.  It's fairly cheap to do a circuit that fits in an XLR connector (as in my PFA) and does +41V, signal (biased if necessary), and ground.  It wouldn't be anywhere near the full AKG circuit, but it would work.

Oops, yeah you're right about the capsule.

Revised part list (at the capsule):
- 1MR and 100nF, circuit to take +polarize and smooth it out
- 1GR bias resitor (could be 10G, but 1G is enough I think)
- FET (from Transsound TSB-120A capsule)
- 4.7kR source resistor for FET
- 47pF ceramic between capsule and FET gate

I used the FET from the Transsound capsule because it is "self-biased" so I don't need a dividing circuit.

In my prototype I cut then end of a pair of Studio Projects C4.  This includes just the part to screw in to the capsule.  I built the above components.  The input is a standard (two-wire) battery box, plus +60V (polarization).

The prototype seemed to work (using a bunch of 9v batteries in series for the polarization), but I did not do any field testing yet.  If you could build me a battery box with polarization (eg., for parts plus a small charge), I would be willing to continue on the project, and share my results with anyone who is interested.  Oh yeah, running 40V polarization might be OK.  That is equivalent to running a mic with a 10 or 20dB pad on, right?  Ie., the noise floor increases, but it still handles loud signals, which is what *most* of us want.  Also, remember that we need +polarize, but it is very low current, so it is not like a phantom supply.

As far as epoxied capsules, I would start with something cheap, like Studio projects C4.  If this works well, go for AKG.  These are cheap anyway.  I wouldn't mess with Scheops, though.  Besides we have the new (CMR?) collettes now, these do *exactly* what the above does, and if you've got money for Scheops, you can afford the CMR!

The fact is, I'm trying to get out of taping projects, but if someone else jumped in, I would probably slip back in  .

  Richard

[it-goes-to-eleven]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

if someone wants to invest their own time and money to improve on a design and bring products to the marketplace, I am all for it.

So you think you're entitled to steal someone else's design because you're "improving" it?   Ah yes, the entitlement attitude.   Is sloppy machine work and o-rings innovation?

There is a huge difference between going off and designing your own system and copying someone else's work.  There are a bunch of details and developement work required.  As MSH. mentions in a later post, it all takes time and money.   It is so much easier to copy someone else's work.   Just because the original designer isn't around doesn't make it okay.   What applies in this case is copyright, not a patent.  And morals... for those who have them.

The suggestion that the design isn't original or special.. Sorry, but if that was the case you wouldn't need to reverse engineer it.  Of course...  Some people will do anything to make a buck, and rationalize it any way they can.  Demand does not justify stealing a design, or anything else.  Ultimately, there's going to be profit involved and that makes it all about making a buck no matter how you try and spin it.

[illconditioned]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

if someone wants to invest their own time and money to improve on a design and bring products to the marketplace, I am all for it.

So you think you're entitled to steal someone else's design because you're "improving" it?   Ah yes, the entitlement attitude.   Is sloppy machine work and o-rings innovation?

There is a huge difference between going off and designing your own system and copying someone else's work.  There are a bunch of details and developement work required.  As MSH. mentions in a later post, it all takes time and money.   It is so much easier to copy someone else's work.   Just because the original designer isn't around doesn't make it okay.   What applies in this case is copyright, not a patent.  And morals... for those who have them.

The suggestion that the design isn't original or special.. Sorry, but if that was the case you wouldn't need to reverse engineer it.  Of course...  Some people will do anything to make a buck, and rationalize it any way they can.  Demand does not justify stealing a design, or anything else.  Ultimately, there's going to be profit involved and that makes it all about making a buck no matter how you try and spin it.

Most electronics people will know the circuit.  I certainly do.  I don't have to reverse-engineer it.  All this stuff is pretty basic.  I'm not saying building it is easy.  There are mechanical (fittings) and electrical (noise) issues, but the ideas are pretty basic.  The only thing we are doing is copying Scheops original "collette" design, which is probably out of patent anyway.

  Richard

[NOLAfishwater]

someone should just send their JK setup to mshilarious (jon w/ naiant) and let him reverse engineer it. this is assuming there is a demand for the product.

Since when did ripping off someone else's design become acceptable?

I'm going to guess that Jon's morals wouldn't allow that.

if someone wants to invest their own time and money to improve on a design and bring products to the marketplace, I am all for it.

So you think you're entitled to steal someone else's design because you're "improving" it?   Ah yes, the entitlement attitude.   Is sloppy machine work and o-rings innovation?

There is a huge difference between going off and designing your own system and copying someone else's work.  There are a bunch of details and developement work required.  As MSH. mentions in a later post, it all takes time and money.   It is so much easier to copy someone else's work.   Just because the original designer isn't around doesn't make it okay.   What applies in this case is copyright, not a patent.  And morals... for those who have them.

The suggestion that the design isn't original or special.. Sorry, but if that was the case you wouldn't need to reverse engineer it.  Of course...  Some people will do anything to make a buck, and rationalize it any way they can.  Demand does not justify stealing a design, or anything else.  Ultimately, there's going to be profit involved and that makes it all about making a buck no matter how you try and spin it.

Most electronics people will know the circuit.  I certainly do.  I don't have to reverse-engineer it.  All this stuff is pretty basic.  I'm not saying building it is easy.  There are mechanical (fittings) and electrical (noise) issues, but the ideas are pretty basic.  The only thing we are doing is copying Scheops original "collette" design, which is probably out of patent anyway.

  Richard

I was thinking that a new unit could have a rechargeable battery, be smaller, have variable gain, one singe 5 pin cable instead of 2 cables. As far as my mounts are concerned, I was stepped up when nobody else would. Talk is cheap and action speaks louder than words. 

if someone wants to volunteer a 460/480 + CK6x capsule, I can get with a machinist here to figure out what it will take to make the housing. of course, Jon probably has a machine shop already. I am just saying that if people want to get this off the ground, I am willing to help even though I don't even use AKG microphones.

[Scooter123]

Since the thread was hijacked to an AKG NBox, I'll highjack it again--

What would be the advantage?  I know AKGs are a third of the price of Schoeps and the 61 cap is well regarded.  Is that it?

And yet another highjack diversion--I've not used AKGs, except a very long time ago for cards for miking drums.  How does the AKG compare to the Schoeps mk4's?  I don't want to start a mike war, but I'm wondering what the difference might be.  Certainly not better than mk4's although it might be different, eh?  Probably crisper and less warm? 

[NOLAfishwater]

Well the trick to the AKGs is they apparently have connections for diaphragm, backplate, and capsule case (I am not familiar with these at all).  So the capsule coupling has to be able to interface with that.  That's probably trickier than threading the piece of pipe.

Did a quick sketch, and the capsule components will fit on a circular PCB that is 1/2" diameter, all SMT except for 2x 1Gs and 1 TO-92 FET.  I would suggest including a 3-pin mini-XLR jack in the capsule coupling for convenience.

did you see the schematic here: http://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=93559.150

[illconditioned]

Since the thread was hijacked to an AKG NBox, I'll highjack it again--

What would be the advantage?  I know AKGs are a third of the price of Schoeps and the 61 cap is well regarded.  Is that it?

And yet another highjack diversion--I've not used AKGs, except a very long time ago for cards for miking drums.  How does the AKG compare to the Schoeps mk4's?  I don't want to start a mike war, but I'm wondering what the difference might be.  Certainly not better than mk4's although it might be different, eh?  Probably crisper and less warm?

Yes, you got it, AKG are way cheaper.  I would prefer the Schoeps if I had the money, but AKG are fine.

Why build an akg-box?  Well, it is *really* cheap.  Those capsules can go as low as $500 a pair, and you don't need bodies, so it is a great rig.

If I had the money I would just go for MK41/CMR rig like Dartrain has.  This setup is incredibly small, uses very little battery, and sounds great!

  Richard

[OFOTD]

Since the thread was hijacked to an AKG NBox, I'll highjack it again--

What would be the advantage?  I know AKGs are a third of the price of Schoeps and the 61 cap is well regarded.  Is that it?

And yet another highjack diversion--I've not used AKGs, except a very long time ago for cards for miking drums.  How does the AKG compare to the Schoeps mk4's?  I don't want to start a mike war, but I'm wondering what the difference might be.  Certainly not better than mk4's although it might be different, eh?  Probably crisper and less warm?

ck63 = BEST HYPER EVER!   

That's why.

[Todd R]

Um, having owned and used both, I'll have to disagree and correct you:  Gefell m210 -- best hyper ever! 

The AKG ck6x caps are all very nice sounding, and the ck63 is an excellent hyper cap.  I'd agree that the benefit over the schoeps is that the AKG line is much cheaper and sounds very good (and that AKG's aren't schoeps -- nice mics, but I don't really like them at all for amplified PA recording).

On the hypers, to me this is the biggest reason for the AKG active-capsule box.  If the box once designed plus the active cable/collette is going to be at least $500-700 or so (which seems quite possible), for the cost of that plus the ck6x caps, I'd opt for a set of milab vm44-links instead.  The milabs have omni and card caps, so the main difference in going to an AKG setup is the option for nice sounding, active-style hypercard mics.

[Todd R]

Question (probably for richard or jon):

Is it possible to design a box that provides a universal functionality of mic bodies plus the needed voltage/polarization to work with multiple mic brand capsules?  I realize each capsule might need slightly different polarization voltages or whatever, but if that can be fairly easily changed/customized within each box, could it be possible to have one basic design meet the needs of numerous brands of capsules?

I'm thinking that for AKGs and Gefells, someone or some homegrown startup company can make the specific machined collettes to fit the AKG ck6x caps and the Gefell m2x caps.  This theoretical company can outfit the collettes with a universal active circuit -- FETs, resistors, etc.  For MBHO and Milab, I'm hoping it would be possible to get the active cables (with FETs etc already in place as per usual) sold as individual parts.  Each of these different active cable lines could be outfitted with the same type of connector (4pin mini-XLR?) for use on the universal mic-body box. 

Probably could do the same with neumann, though they are really active capsules and not active cables, and I'm not sure a big company like this would like to supply parts so the market could bypass their existing product line (km100/km140/km150).  Ditto with schoeps, since they already have the CMR's and we have the n-box, the schoeps angle probably isn't worth it.

But if one company can make a universal box to act as the bodies for many different brands of mic capsules, and can even make this as a mic preamp as well (I'm thinking Naiant, since jon seems well established along this route), then the total market for these mic body/mic preamp boxes might be a large enough segment to address with a single product.

The homegrown collette/active cable company can act as a sister company to provide the needed gefell, akg, mbho, milab active cables for use with the universal box.

Pipe dream I'm sure, but Jon's tinybox got me wondering about this awhile ago.  If I could replace my milab mic bodies with a tinybox type box that acts as mic bodies and mic preamp, it would be great.  Even better if I could use the same box with my Gefell caps.

[page]

Question (probably for richard or jon):

Is it possible to design a box that provides a universal functionality of mic bodies plus the needed voltage/polarization to work with multiple mic brand capsules?  I realize each capsule might need slightly different polarization voltages or whatever, but if that can be fairly easily changed/customized within each box, could it be possible to have one basic design meet the needs of numerous brands of capsules?

I'm thinking that for AKGs and Gefells, someone or some homegrown startup company can make the specific machined collettes to fit the AKG ck6x caps and the Gefell m2x caps.  This theoretical company can outfit the collettes with a universal active circuit -- FETs, resistors, etc.  For MBHO and Milab, I'm hoping it would be possible to get the active cables (with FETs etc already in place as per usual) sold as individual parts.  Each of these different active cable lines could be outfitted with the same type of connector (4pin mini-XLR?) for use on the universal mic-body box. 

Don't the MBHO's contain all of their electronic pieces in the cap (which is one reason it's longer then a schoeps mk cap) so your cable is just a 4 or 5pin mini-xlr (like the beyers). I thought most of the changable cap systems were of that variety compared to schoeps.

Point stands though, effectively what differences are there in voltages required, and then second, what connector would need to be created. The connectors would be unit connecting to a normal multi-pin mini XLR and you select which option either at ordering similar to the jklabs equipment. You could do internal DIP switches and have it be field selectable so that the boxes are even more generic.

[Chuck]

Question (probably for richard or jon):

Is it possible to design a box that provides a universal functionality of mic bodies plus the needed voltage/polarization to work with multiple mic brand capsules?  I realize each capsule might need slightly different polarization voltages or whatever, but if that can be fairly easily changed/customized within each box, could it be possible to have one basic design meet the needs of numerous brands of capsules?

I'm thinking that for AKGs and Gefells, someone or some homegrown startup company can make the specific machined collettes to fit the AKG ck6x caps and the Gefell m2x caps.  This theoretical company can outfit the collettes with a universal active circuit -- FETs, resistors, etc.  For MBHO and Milab, I'm hoping it would be possible to get the active cables (with FETs etc already in place as per usual) sold as individual parts.  Each of these different active cable lines could be outfitted with the same type of connector (4pin mini-XLR?) for use on the universal mic-body box. 

Probably could do the same with neumann, though they are really active capsules and not active cables, and I'm not sure a big company like this would like to supply parts so the market could bypass their existing product line (km100/km140/km150).  Ditto with schoeps, since they already have the CMR's and we have the n-box, the schoeps angle probably isn't worth it.

But if one company can make a universal box to act as the bodies for many different brands of mic capsules, and can even make this as a mic preamp as well (I'm thinking Naiant, since jon seems well established along this route), then the total market for these mic body/mic preamp boxes might be a large enough segment to address with a single product.

The homegrown collette/active cable company can act as a sister company to provide the needed gefell, akg, mbho, milab active cables for use with the universal box.

Pipe dream I'm sure, but Jon's tinybox got me wondering about this awhile ago.  If I could replace my milab mic bodies with a tinybox type box that acts as mic bodies and mic preamp, it would be great.  Even better if I could use the same box with my Gefell caps.

Todd, this is exactly what I was thinking. If someone could do this, there would be huge market and a better motivation for someone to develop it.

[Todd R]

Don't the MBHO's contain all of their electronic pieces in the cap (which is one reason it's longer then a schoeps mk cap) so your cable is just a 4 or 5pin mini-xlr (like the beyers). I thought most of the changable cap systems were of that variety compared to schoeps.

Yeah, I was thinking that as I wrote it, but didn't know the answer so I just let it be.

My milabs do not have the active elements in the capsule, so I presume they are in the active cable heads.  DSatz makes it sound like for patent reasons, only schoeps the patent holder does this, but my milabs are the same design.  Clearly not like the active capsule design of the neumann ak40/ak50/etc. Isn't the Rode nt6 also the same design?

[illconditioned]

Don't the MBHO's contain all of their electronic pieces in the cap (which is one reason it's longer then a schoeps mk cap) so your cable is just a 4 or 5pin mini-xlr (like the beyers). I thought most of the changable cap systems were of that variety compared to schoeps.

Yeah, I was thinking that as I wrote it, but didn't know the answer so I just let it be.

My milabs do not have the active elements in the capsule, so I presume they are in the active cable heads.  DSatz makes it sound like for patent reasons, only schoeps the patent holder does this, but my milabs are the same design.  Clearly not like the active capsule design of the neumann ak40/ak50/etc. Isn't the Rode nt6 also the same design?

I think patent reasons prevented actives in the past, at least an active collette with a bare capsule.  Neumann put actives in the capsule to avoid this, probably.  But now we have at least three others: Milabs, Beyerdynamic, MBHO, and yes, you're right Rode, so patent is no longer an issue I'm guessing.

Now as to making a "general" box, I don't see the point.  All three actives above are priced right.  The only advantage I see is for AKG, since we can get a great hyper capsule for a cheap price.  As for Geffell, there might be some benefit, as this is a very good capsule, but it is pretty expensive, and not that common, so this need is less likely to be addressed by so-called "gear hackers".

As for making it financially worthwhile, I think this is dicey.  The box would have to be pretty cheap to compete with Milabs, Beyerdynamic, etc.  And the box is unlikely to be as well designed as those either.  One slight advantage of the box over bodies + active cables is reduced size and battery power.  It may be worthwhile to just get the mics + collettes from Beyerdynamic, etc and run a small battery box + polarization circuit.  Perhaps Jon could build one of those?  Even if it sold for the same price as the bodies, it would be smaller and lower power.

At this point I'm sitting on the fence.  If someone, Jon or otherwise, built a custom 3-wire battery box with an extra +60V polarization voltage in it, and price it at say $200, I would probably hardwire (FET + other parts behind) my CK63 caps and use it.

  Richard

[page]

Now as to making a "general" box, I don't see the point.  All three actives above are priced right.  The only advantage I see is for AKG, since we can get a great hyper capsule for a cheap price.

And the bodies you are replacing are the priciest piece in the AKG setup. Neumann, Beyer, etc have bodies that are cheaper then the caps, and as such, there isn't nearly the gain that you get vs AKG.

It may be worthwhile to just get the mics + collettes from Beyerdynamic, etc and run a small battery box + polarization circuit.  Perhaps Jon could build one of those?  Even if it sold for the same price as the bodies, it would be smaller and lower power.

That's a cost/size ratio that I've looked at a lot. The beyer bodies for the ck9xx series are barely 3.5" or 4". I looked at his tinybox, and it's about the same length as the bodies, but not quite as think, so effectively you are cutting out 1 tinybox worth of space for a custom design.

At this point I'm sitting on the fence.  If someone, Jon or otherwise, built a custom 3-wire battery box with an extra +60V polarization voltage in it, and price it at say $200, I would probably hardwire (FET + other parts behind) my CK63 caps and use it.

I have a similar position as well, if someone could build a battery box for the beyers at a low cost (sub $200), I'd pick up one, but I don't gain enough to justify it over keeping the bodies and using a tinybox or some other phantom (12v or 48v) box.

[NOLAfishwater]

The 60V battery box isn't hard, but there would need to be an agreed on format for the interconnection.  Actually I can probably support just about any configuration, as I do with my boxes.  Anyway, that box is the easy part, I could have that ready in a month.

I still think it's necessary to supply a PCB to do a capsule circuit, and then an interface PCB for that board.  The capsule PCB-->PFA solution is cheapest and would be compatible with any +48V preamp, but will only supply +41V to the capsule, and will use more power than a dedicated +60V battery box.

sounds like you could make a box that is compatible with the standard Schoeps cables. here is the parts pricing list where you an order a complete connector for schoeps http://www.posthorn.com/S_parts.html