Topic: mics directly into recorder question (at943 4.7k/853/ssdsm6; r-1;r09;iriverh120

[Will_S]

Cool, thanks again for answering all these questions.

Looking at the Sennhiser pdf it seems like it's the 2 wire/amplifier configuration = Method 2 in the Sound By Design pdf that works for either type of mics, whereas Method 1 is like Sennhieser's Impedance Transformer configuration that can only be used with the 3 wire MKE-2-5.  So the Sound By Design pdf is wrong in saying only Method 1 can be used with all mic types, it's only Method 2 that works for both.  If that's true, it pretty much all makes sense to me now.

[Church-Audio]

Cool, thanks again for answering all these questions.

Looking at the Sennhiser pdf it seems like it's the 2 wire/amplifier configuration = Method 2 in the Sound By Design pdf that works for either type of mics, whereas Method 1 is like Sennhieser's Impedance Transformer configuration that can only be used with the 3 wire MKE-2-5.  So the Sound By Design pdf is wrong in saying only Method 1 can be used with all mic types, it's only Method 2 that works for both.  If that's true, it pretty much all makes sense to me now.

Its kinda strange that this information is so hard to come by... I have to use my "phone a friend" to find out lol....

[Javier Cinakowski]

None of the UniPoint or Engenieer Sound lines were designed as lav mics.   the 853 and 933 didn't have clips for lav purposes (from AT anyway).  They had no groove to attach the clips.

The 943 is an adaption to make them lav freindly.  The 943 is just a 933 with a groove to attach a lav clip to...

Now, in all fairness, many people did and still do use them as lavs.

Actually they do sell a  lav clip that is used on this mic and I did at one time use this mic as a lav but it sucked.. so bad I never used it again...

As far as I know and can research the 853 and 933 never had a facoty lav clip as an accessory. (the Shure clips work great though)
If you look at the availiable accessories for the engineered sound and uni-point lines, the only lav clip is for the 943 specifically.  Even looking at the discontinued information there was never a lav clip. (before the 943, there was no good place for a lav clip to grip too, hence the invention of the 943) 

This is exaclty why sound pro had to do that goofy mod with the alegator clips expoxied to the body of the 853.

I am not trying to argue here, but I am curious, because if AT does/did offer a lav clip for the 853, I would like to own a few pair....

[Humbug]

I am not trying to argue here, but I am curious, because if AT does/did offer a lav clip for the 853, I would like to own a few pair....

In my eyes, the best of both worlds, ES943 bodies, grooved +  adaptor + 853 caps..what I call "AT933s", though this is only roughly right:

(Ignore the AT831s on the right)



And the old version, ES933 bodies (what SP used to sell as CMC8s) with the no groove, round clear ring, and (I think) Shure clips:

   

Both  modified for 3 wire battery boxes.

[Javier Cinakowski]

I am not trying to argue here, but I am curious, because if AT does/did offer a lav clip for the 853, I would like to own a few pair....

In my eyes, the best of both worlds, ES943 bodies, grooved +  adaptor + 853 caps..what I call "AT933s", though this is only roughly right:

(Ignore the AT831s on the right)



And the old version, ES933 bodies (what SP used to sell as CMC8s) with the no groove, round clear ring, and (I think) Shure clips:

   

Both  modified for 3 wire battery boxes.

I agree, I used the 943 with 853 caps for a good while.    The smaller body is convienent and the clips are really helpful!  I think the 943 body sounds just about as good as the 853 body.  I do like the 853 capsules better though....

In terms of sound I like the following (in order):

U873R
U853R
943ES w/ U853 Capsules
AT873R
U851R
AT853
AT933

[bipton]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

[Church-Audio]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

you can do that but you should use a 2.4k resistor I have tested this with the edirol R09HR only and really a battery box is better distortion wise. 

[illconditioned]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

you can do that but you should use a 2.4k resistor I have tested this with the edirol R09HR only and really a battery box is better distortion wise. 

I've been using a 2.2k resistor for plug in power use on both Edirol R09 (not HR), and Sony PCM-D50.  I've used Sennheiser KE4/MKE2, AT853, and Countryman B3, all with this setup.

Why use plug-in-power?  Just less gear to carry around, one less battery to worry about.

  Richard

[darktrain]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

you can do that but you should use a 2.4k resistor I have tested this with the edirol R09HR only and really a battery box is better distortion wise. 

I've been using a 2.2k resistor for plug in power use on both Edirol R09 (not HR), and Sony PCM-D50.  I've used Sennheiser KE4/MKE2, AT853, and Countryman B3, all with this setup.

Why use plug-in-power?  Just less gear to carry around, one less battery to worry about.

  Richard

Richard I use the 4.7k on my set of 853's whats the advantage of the 2.2k or will both do fine, i use mine plug in power to the pmd620 and D50 with good results.

[illconditioned]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

you can do that but you should use a 2.4k resistor I have tested this with the edirol R09HR only and really a battery box is better distortion wise. 

I've been using a 2.2k resistor for plug in power use on both Edirol R09 (not HR), and Sony PCM-D50.  I've used Sennheiser KE4/MKE2, AT853, and Countryman B3, all with this setup.

Why use plug-in-power?  Just less gear to carry around, one less battery to worry about.

  Richard

Richard I use the 4.7k on my set of 853's whats the advantage of the 2.2k or will both do fine, i use mine plug in power to the pmd620 and D50 with good results.

4.7k should be fine with the AT853.  Other capsules I use need a bit more current, which requires a lower resistor value.  Ideally a larger resistor (4.7k) gives less distortion than a lower one (2.2k), but I haven't done any listening tests for this.

  Richard

[Church-Audio]

has anyone run 4.7k modded 853's directly into the 1/8" jack of an MT24/96 with no battery box?

you can do that but you should use a 2.4k resistor I have tested this with the edirol R09HR only and really a battery box is better distortion wise. 

I've been using a 2.2k resistor for plug in power use on both Edirol R09 (not HR), and Sony PCM-D50.  I've used Sennheiser KE4/MKE2, AT853, and Countryman B3, all with this setup.

Why use plug-in-power?  Just less gear to carry around, one less battery to worry about.

  Richard

Richard I use the 4.7k on my set of 853's whats the advantage of the 2.2k or will both do fine, i use mine plug in power to the pmd620 and D50 with good results.

4.7k should be fine with the AT853.  Other capsules I use need a bit more current, which requires a lower resistor value.  Ideally a larger resistor (4.7k) gives less distortion than a lower one (2.2k), but I haven't done any listening tests for this.

  Richard

The lower the bias voltage the lower the value of resistor at 3.8 volts via the R09 the correct value is 2.4k I have measured it for THD and that gives the best balance of signal output and the least amount of distortion. Now at 7-9 volts the best resistor to use is 4.7k.

[Javier Cinakowski]

The lower the bias voltage the lower the value of resistor at 3.8 volts via the R09 the correct value is 2.4k I have measured it for THD and that gives the best balance of signal output and the least amount of distortion. Now at 7-9 volts the best resistor to use is 4.7k.

This post is great Chris, thanks!
When I had illconditioned 2.2ks and a pair of your 4.7's, I found applications in which they both performed well...
There isn't just a general rule that 4.7k or this or that is the best.  Each manufactures make and model will perform differently based on the resistor/load.
I would trust Chris to test my particular brand of mic and determine the best electrical solution.  I have had multiple pairs of MKE40s that behaved differently than one another.

I know many of you don't appreciate guysonics sales tactics or website, but he seems the understand this concept too.  His mics are designed specifically for the voltage and load of a particular microphone input.

It just doesn't seem that the standards for PIP and consumer mic/line inputs are conducive to predictable performance

[Church-Audio]

The lower the bias voltage the lower the value of resistor at 3.8 volts via the R09 the correct value is 2.4k I have measured it for THD and that gives the best balance of signal output and the least amount of distortion. Now at 7-9 volts the best resistor to use is 4.7k.

This post is great Chris, thanks!
When I had illconditioned 2.2ks and a pair of your 4.7's, I found applications in which they both performed well...
There isn't just a general rule that 4.7k or this or that is the best.  Each manufactures make and model will perform differently based on the resistor/load.
I would trust Chris to test my particular brand of mic and determine the best electrical solution.  I have had multiple pairs of MKE40s that behaved differently than one another.

I know many of you don't appreciate guysonics sales tactics or website, but he seems the understand this concept too.  His mics are designed specifically for the voltage and load of a particular microphone input.

It just doesn't seem that the standards for PIP and consumer mic/line inputs are conducive to predictable performance

What I do is simple I put a potentiometer on the mic in place of the resistor mod I do and dial it in with my distortion meter and a very very low distortion source then I measure the value of the pots adjustment under the voltage that the mics will see in the real world. With the Sennheiser mics both omni and cardioid that companies like MM are selling 4.7k when used with a battery box is perfect but I too have seen differences that mean different values must be used.

Maybe they were using different fets at one time or another. All I know is before any of the mics I mod get modified I do the potentiometer test. I know some of my competition have tried to do the mod to varying degrees of success the one thing most of them fail to realize is that the values are not writen in stone and that you must have a way of measuring the distortion of the mic and have a very low distortion acoustic transducer. Or substitute the capsule for a capacitor and measure the distortion by putting in a tone into the cap. But that does not take into consideration the diaphragm and resonance of the mic body it self and its contribution to distortion.

The key to my mics is simple.. I match them to with in 0.005 db of each other at 1k and I make sure that the distortion or overload characteristics of each mic in the set is the same. That way both mics in the set perform the same way. This gives you a set of mics that is matched mid band and that will capture the sound field balance left/right exactly the way it is based on your placement. This gets you closer to what things sounded like at the concert. Most people say they match mics but when your mic capsule are say $200 each how close do they really match? Makes you wonder. MATCHING IS EVERYTHING...... to the way a pair of mics sound. So many tapers are running with mics that are not matched even doing something as simple as knowing how far each mic is off from one another so corrective adjustments can be applied later on in post is valuable and necessary in my opinion to getting a great sound. Unfortunately the VU meters that are being used to make judgements are just not accurate enough to get really good results.



Chris