Topic: As much as I hate "vs." threads: DPA 4060 vs. CA-11/14 omni

[gossling]

Hello,

I have yet to buy and keep any recording equipment (though I have the Tascam GT-R1 and Zoom H2 with excellent return policies).  I've read that, as far as recording chains go, microphones are arguably the most important element.  I plan to do all of my recording (both in and out of concert, though almost all in the field) with this setup:
microphones -> external preamp -> recorder

I've heard great things about the DPA 4060 and classical music, which is what I'll primarily be recording.  Well...classical/jazz, but usually with a small number of instrumentalists (from solo to octet).  But I don't currently have the money for a pair of DPA 4060, so I've been looking for a reasonable substitute.  The Church microphones are held in high regard here, and I've read posts comparing the two, so I was wondering how comparable the two actually are for my application.  One major instrument I'll be recording is the cello (often solo), and I really need to pick up the deep resonances of the instrument. 

Oh, and I also plan to do live sound reinforcement on my cello with whatever microphone I choose, so let me know if anything is incompatible in that field.

Any thoughts, experiences, samples, anything would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks!

[heyitsmejess]

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uf93ln

ca14 omni sample


ca14 omni > ca9100 > h120

[Belexes]

I'd get the CA-14 omnis and use those for a while and then think hard if you really want/need to spend the $ on the DPA's.

[rastasean]

Get the CA14 ominis and if you don't like them and you think you can improve, sell them to me and get yourself a DPA set.

Conventional wisdom tells us that more money spend means a better recording. This really goes for anything. more money for a house = perfect. more money for a car = prettier. more money on a cell phone = better.
Its all subjective!! especially with sound, IMO.

I hope most people will say mic placement is the key for a great recording as well as good music and a pretty good pair of microphones and the recorder.
Good luck!

[itook2much]

Since you can't swing the DPAs yet anyway, go for the Church Audio.  Haven't owned a pair, but I've heard great tapes made with them, & Chris is known for delivering great customer service.

The DPAs I do own, & consider them top-notch.  Don't know that I'd want anything else.

You'll pay much more for the DPAs than for the CA.  Just like you'll pay much more for a Corvette Z06 than for a Mustang GT.  But you'll never convince a 'stang fan that the Z06 is better.

I doubt you'll be disappointed with the CA mics.  And so much else goes into a good recording.  Location, location, location.  I've heard crappy tapes made with thousands of dollars worth of gear, and I've heard killer tapes made with cheap gear.

If you buy the CA & later decide you want DPAs, you'll have no trouble selling them.

[gossling]

So it seems like the CA microphones are a reasonable substitution for the DPA 4060.  So you all would go with the CA-14 omni? The thing I like about the CA-11 is the replaceable caps.  I could go cardioid for live sound reinforcement and omni for recording.  Is the CA-14 omni that big a step up from the CA-11 omni? The 9100 + CA-11 sale in the retail section seems like a good deal too.

How do these microphones compare with standard studio condenser microphones such as the Studio Project C4, Oktava MK-012, AT4041? Since discretion is not of very much importance for my application, would it just be better to go with these?

Thanks for all the replies

[nameloc01]

You may want to check these out...I'm ordering a pair very soon

http://www.soundprofessionals.com/cgi-bin/gold/item/SP-BMC-10

[heyitsmejess]

So it seems like the CA microphones are a reasonable substitution for the DPA 4060.  So you all would go with the CA-14 omni? The thing I like about the CA-11 is the replaceable caps.  I could go cardioid for live sound reinforcement and omni for recording.  Is the CA-14 omni that big a step up from the CA-11 omni? The 9100 + CA-11 sale in the retail section seems like a good deal too.

How do these microphones compare with standard studio condenser microphones such as the Studio Project C4, Oktava MK-012, AT4041? Since discretion is not of very much importance for my application, would it just be better to go with these?

Thanks for all the replies

listen to as many samples of the microphones as you can, and make your own determination.  personally, i think the ca-14 omnis are quite a fine microphone, and am damn proud of the few recordings i have made with them.  besides, buying from church audio, you are not only supporting a fellow TSer, but you also get a life time guarentee on the mics and the preamp. 

i forget how to do it, but there is a way you can search the live music archive for microphone types.

[aaronji]

If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds!  If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.

The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos.  DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive).  Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...

With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated.  Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.

[BC]

I emailed Chris a while back about suitability of his products for acoustic/classical recording and as I recall his reply was that they would not work well for unamplified music. I do not recall if the reason was due to the mic sensitivity or due to the limited max gain of his preamp. I'd shoot him a line and talk to him directly about your specific needs.

Best wishes,
Ben

[firmdragon]

If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds!  If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.

The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos.  DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive).  Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...

With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated.  Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.

agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.

[Church-Audio]

I emailed Chris a while back about suitability of his products for acoustic/classical recording and as I recall his reply was that they would not work well for unamplified music. I do not recall if the reason was due to the mic sensitivity or due to the limited max gain of his preamp. I'd shoot him a line and talk to him directly about your specific needs.

Best wishes,
Ben

The ca-14 omni work great for acoustic recording. So does the ca-11 omni but the ca-14 omni  is a much better mic so are my new Cafs mics if you need small.

[illconditioned]

If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds!  If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.

The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos.  DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive).  Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...

With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated.  Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.

agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.

Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound!  Listen to samples.  I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com.  My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording.  Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more.  Of course everyone has a different opinion.

  Richard
 

[boojum]

If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds!  If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.

The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos.  DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive).  Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...

With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated.  Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.

agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.

Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound!  Listen to samples.  I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com.  My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording.  Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more.  Of course everyone has a different opinion.

  Richard
 

The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage.  This is from the company website:

"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,

"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."

Yes, you can run it on a battery box.  No, it is not as good as phantom.  With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential.  Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages.  I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated.  It has a pretty good rep.  I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of.  Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion.  But, what do I know?  You might check out his short review of the mics.

[illconditioned]

If you really have an itch to get the 4060s, you should just save up some money and spring for them now...You'll end up doing it sooner or later anyway, and you might as well make maximum use of your limited funds!  If you really need something right away, go for the CA-11s (with both caps); that way, when the upgrade monster starts disturbing your sleep, you'll end up with a pair of cardioids in the collection too.

The DPAs are considerably more sensitive than the Church mics, which might come in handy when recording pianissimo cello solos.  DPA also sells mounts specifically for mic'ing string instruments (although these little accessories are usually scandalously expensive).  Another advantage is that when the upgrade monster starts in on your choice of recorder, you can also get a pair of XLR/phantom adaptors for the 4060s...

With respect to the cost issue: all other factors being equal, better equipment should yield better results...And quality and price are pretty well correlated.  Not a perfect correlation, of course, and there are exceptions (in my opinion, the Church mics are a superb value), but you generally get what you pay for.

agreed. if you think you'll stick around with this little money pit of a hobby, get the dpas now.

Before you sink money into the DPA406x (or any expensive mic), make sure you like the sound!  Listen to samples.  I've got *a few* only at http://Soundmann.com.  My opinion -- I don't like DPA406x for music recording.  Ambient they sound unbelievable, but for music, I'm liking Countryman B3 a lot more.  Of course everyone has a different opinion.

  Richard
 

The 4060's can run on low voltage, but are designed for phantom voltage.  This is from the company website:

"Min. 5 V - max 50 V through DPA adapter", and,

"The Miniature Microphone's size taken into consideration DPA has obtained an outstanding noise floor of 23 dB(A) re. 20 µPa and an impressive sensitivity of 20 mV/Pa and if powered correctly, the microphone will be able to handle sound pressure levels up to 134 dB SPL before clipping occurs. A wide range of connection adapters makes it possible to use the Miniature Microphones with close to any professional wireless systems available plus 48 V Phantom. The Miniature Microphone DPA 4060 is winner of Product of the Year Award 1997 from TCI and nominated for a TEC award in 1997."

Yes, you can run it on a battery box.  No, it is not as good as phantom.  With the lower voltage I would suspect that it is not performing up to its designed potential.  Countryman also specs phantom power, but may be better suited by its design to work at low voltages.  I am just surprised to see the 406n down-rated.  It has a pretty good rep.  I am also attaching a PDF file by Onno Schultze on the 4061 which he is quite fond of.  Onno is a Tonmeister and helped tune Schoeps latest mic, so a few people respect his expertise and opinion.  But, what do I know?  You might check out his short review of the mics.

Beg to disagree here.  Battery can power the mics with two wires.  I forget the voltage and current, but those have to be chosen together.  I think it is 3.7v on the mic, but don't quote me on this.  I built a battery box but I have since forget the resistor value.

  Richard