Topic: Cables for soundboard patches

[T-90]

great info Brian.....so if i want to run sb>ad-20>jb3, all i need are the adaptors to go from xlr (ad-20) to rca (sb) for this right? the board will have rca outs.

[wsphansam]

Other way around T-90, you want RCA to XLR, the way you describe you would be feeding you ad-20 into the SBD. Also, when using the ad-20 beware that it adds a considerable amount of gain, even with the knobs all the way down. Look into some attenuators if you'll be pulling alot of board patches.

[cyfan]

• [2] RCA-male / XLR-male adapters (see attached pic)

I am actually looking for two RCA-female / XLR-male adapters.
(If I'm using the XLR inputs on my UA-5 for the mics and want to mix in an XLR out from the soundboard I have to take it into the RCA jacks on the UA-5.) Also, since my attenuators are designed for use on RCA connects, it is exactly what I need.

Soooo... does anybody know where I can pick up a couple?

Tim

[Brian Skalinder]

Soooo... does anybody know where I can pick up a couple?

http://www.hosatech.com/hosa/products/GXM-133.html

Anyone who carries Hosa gear should be able to order for you if they don't already have 'em in stock.

[cyfan]

Thanks Brian. Yeah, I got a HOSA dealer in town. They keep a small stock, but they're order those for me.

tim

[Church-Audio]

One thing to mention is polarity of the output of the console, if its XLR you may need phase reverse cable (an XLR cable that swaps pin 2 with pin 3) so that your sound board patch is in phase with your room mics. Out of phase board mix with your room mics can result in a real loss of bottom end in your recordings but it can also do other things as well.

All mic preamps are pin 2 hot pin 3 neg pin 1 ground, if you’re doing room mics they will always be pin 2 hot. But console outputs can be pin 2 or pin 3 in the case of XLR outputs. With unbalanced outputs like 1/4 there is no problem 99.9% of the time tip is positive.

You can also have 1/4 inch balanced with the ring or tip being positive. I think this is often overlooked and can result in a real phase mess, if proper polarity is not adhered too. If you are in doubt the only way to tell is with a phase meter ( not something most of you will carry) But the sound tech should know what pin on the XLR out is hot.

When you get home to mix it down listen for the difference when you reverse the board mix track and combine it with the room mics.
If you did a multitrack recording if not your stuck with the results there is no way to fix it after the fact. IMO all tapers that are going to be using XLR connectors going to a preamp or record input should have a set of phase reverse cables.
The phase issue is moot if you plan on just recording the board mix as there is no reference to the actual polarity so there is no phase issue. Although some people claim to be able to hear a recording that is entirely out of phase, with respect to the original orientation of the recording mics being used not with left and right! That is very hard to do but it is possible to hear that difference.



Chris Church

When it comes to cables, there are three factors to consider when patching out of the soundboard:

<1>  plugging into the soundboard
There are only so many options for soundboard outputs.  These outputs are usually XLR-male, RCA-female, and 1/4" mono female (and occasionally 1/4" stereo female which I won't address here).  So we need to have cables or adapters that will allows us to plug into the outputs listed above.

<2>  running a length of cable to get out of the way
Since the soundboard outputs are, well, part of the soundboard, it's best to have a length of cable so we may run our gear out of the sound engineer's way.  Six feet should suffice.

<3>  plugging into the preamp/ADC/recorder
How to feed the signal to our preamp/ADC/recorder depends on the connectors on our preamp/ADC/connector.  The most common preamps/ADCs/recorders have the following connectors:  XLR-female, RCA-female, and stereo mini female.

Let's look at precisely what it would take to plug into the soundboard with a preamp/ADC/recorder having each of the connectors mentioned above.  All three options below addresses the three factors from above:  <1> supports the three most common soundboard connectors, <2> provides a length of cable to run your gear out of the sound engineer's way, and <3> includes the appropriate plug for the preamp/ADC/recorder.  In each case, there are multiple ways to configure your own cables/adapters, but hopefully this will give an idea of what's required for each.  If the preamp/ADC/recorder connector is:

<a> stereo mini female
David Klein took a pic of probably the easiest solution for those wanting to plug in their portable recorder that has a stereo mini female plug (also attached below).  The list of cables / adapters:

• [2] XLR-female / RCA-female adapters (see DKlein pic)
  
• [2] 1/4" mono male / RCA-female adapters (see DKlein pic)
  
• length of cable with [2] RCA-male on one end and [1] stereo mini male on the other end (see DKlein pic)
  
  

<b> RCA-male
This scenario requires a minimal change to the one David shows above in his picture.  Instead of the stereo mini male adapter on one end of the cable run, simply replace it with a pair of RCA-male connectors.  The list of cables/adapters:

• [2] XLR-female / RCA-female adapters (see DKlein pic)
  
• [2] 1/4" mono male / RCA-female adapters (see DKlein pic)
  
• length of cable with [2] RCA-male on both ends (not pictured)

<c> XLR-male
I would mix up the solution for this one a bit.  Since the preamp/ADC/recorder takes XLR-male connectors, I would use a pair of XLR-male / XLR-female cables for my run length.  That way, I could use the cables as interconnects, or even short mic cables, if necessary.  This would also require a change from the adapters listed above.  The list of cables / adapters (see attached for pics of the different adapters):

• [2] RCA-male / XLR-male adapters (see attached pic)
• [2] 1/4" mono male / XLR-male adapters (see attached pic)
• length of cable with [2] XLR-male on one end and [2] XLR-female on the other end (not pictured)

[cyfan]

One thing to mention is polarity of the output of the console, if its XLR you may need phase reverse cable (an XLR cable that swaps pin 2 with pin 3) so that your sound board patch is in phase with your room mics. Out of phase board mix with your room mics can result in a real loss of bottom end in your recordings but it can also do other things as well.

Thanks Chris. That thought hadn't occurred to me but makes sense.
First time I'll be using those adaptors will most likely be a post-mix matrix because the board in the venue (an old movie theater) is stage left and I'll be trying to get the mics deeper into the room. Even if I do run the mics AND board feed into my multi-track unit, I can invert the phase on the mic feeds if need be after the fact (pre mixdown).

But big thanks for bringing up an issue that hadn't crossed my mind.

tim

[Church-Audio]

One thing to mention is polarity of the output of the console, if its XLR you may need phase reverse cable (an XLR cable that swaps pin 2 with pin 3) so that your sound board patch is in phase with your room mics. Out of phase board mix with your room mics can result in a real loss of bottom end in your recordings but it can also do other things as well.

Thanks Chris. That thought hadn't occurred to me but makes sense.
First time I'll be using those adaptors will most likely be a post-mix matrix because the board in the venue (an old movie theater) is stage left and I'll be trying to get the mics deeper into the room. Even if I do run the mics AND board feed into my multi-track unit, I can invert the phase on the mic feeds if need be after the fact (pre mixdown).

But big thanks for bringing up an issue that hadn't crossed my mind.

tim

No problem. Its always overlooked part of sound patches. Always try and get the make and model of the soundboard as well as where you patched in, Aux out, main out, control room out, Matrix out, ect, so you can look it up at the console company's web site and to be sure that everything is the same polarity. That's what I would do, Its very hard because mic inputs on every known console out there, is pin 2 (+) pin 3 (- ) pin 1 ground.

But there is absolutely no standard what so ever for console outputs! unless its a unbalanced out, where the tip will always be + and the barrel will always be - the only way to tell is with a phase checker, or contacting the company that made the console in question. Soundcraft a well know leader in mixing consoles, They had problems with the early ones because they did no know unless you had a serial number ( even then they sometimes could not figure it out) because they changed it so many times lol. Its nuts..


Recording devices for the most part are pin 2 hot pin 3 cold pin 1 ground. so this is where the problems start. 
Remember that polarity is an absolute and the best way to get a good recording is to get it right at the venue not in post. Because there is a difference between doing things in the digital domain and doing things in the analog domain when it comes to polarity.


Chris Church

[gratefulphish]

Chris, In response to your last post, if you are given the choice, is there a preferred set of board outputs that I should picK?  Are some hotter than others, and if so, and people have referred to using attenuators, are they referring to normal XLR pad type attenuators, or something more like the voltage attenuators between AES/EBU and SPDIF?  In either case, what level of attenuation should I be prepared to handle?

[Chuck]

Chris, In response to your last post, if you are given the choice, is there a preferred set of board outputs that I should picK?  Are some hotter than others, and if so, and people have referred to using attenuators, are they referring to normal XLR pad type attenuators, or something more like the voltage attenuators between AES/EBU and SPDIF?  In either case, what level of attenuation should I be prepared to handle?

If you are handy with a soldering iron, it is very easy to make attenuator cables. The circuit is a voltage divider comprised of resistors. I have made several pads inside XLR housings and even 1/4" plugs. If you know the amount of attenuation you need, I bet Chris or someone else here would be happy to make them and sell them to you. Get that cable made and some adaptors to mate with XLR, 1/4" and RCA, and you'll be set.

[gratefulphish]

I have all the adapters, and even have XLR 10db attenuators, I am wondering whether these will work for the soundboard issue, or whether I need a different kind of attenuator.

[powermonkey]

Just for a wee bit of clarification (before I start ordering bits and bobs online):

In order to get me through the majority of soundboard connections, would I be able to get by on this selection of cable and adaptors (using an Edirol R-09):

Cable - 6.3mm(1/8inch) Male Stereo > RCA Male (Left & Right) (long enough to be able to keep out of the way, obviously)

Adaptors: 2 x RCA Female > XLR Female
              2 x RCA Female > 1/4inch Male
              2 x RCA Female > XLR Male

It's the same as in the most useful pic earlier in this thread, but with the addition of a pair of RCA Female > XLR Male adaptors just on the off chance.

Would this be sufficient? I'm aware that I should be grateful for any board connection I get offered, but obviously I want to have as broad a set of options as possible without having to cart around a huge box of adaptors and whatnot.

Thanks for the help, folks.

[Brian E.]

top, great thread.

[su6oxone]

Here's what I use for all my soundboard patching needs when patching to a small recorder with a 1/8" (3.5mm) input jack.  If using a recorder/pre with dual XLR female inputs, you can just use a dual RCA male to dual RCA male cable with an extra set of RCA female to XLR male adapters (of course, this is fairly obvious):

1. (1) Dual RCA male to 1/8" stereo male cable (Monoprice)
2. (2) RCA female to RCA female adapters (Monoprice)
3. (2) XLR female to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
4. (2) XLR male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
5. (2) 1/4" mono male to RCA female adapters (Hosa)
6. (1) 1/4" stereo male to dual RCA female adapter (Hosa)
7. (1) 1/8" stereo male to 1/8" stereo male cable (in case I need to patch out of a 1/8" jack)

[deadhoarse]

I'm trying to find a dual RCA male to molded right angle 1/8" stereo male cable, at least 6 feet in length. Suprisingly my search isn't turning up many results. The straight plug I'm using makes holding the R-09HR a bit awkward.