Topic: Cassette transfers.

[ts]

Got another load of GD cassettes coming in this summer. Been experimenting with a few already and undecided on best transfer method that is available to me. Cassette deck is the only constant. Nakamichi CR5A.

This is what I have available:

1. CR5A >V3(digital out)>722
2. CR5A> V3(analog out)>722
- I’ve used both of these quite a bit over the years and have been pleased with the results.
3. CR5A>722
4. CR5A>V2>722
5. CR5A>Mix Pre 6
6. CR5A>ACM V3(digital out)>722

I’ve pretty much tried them all except the V2>722 and ACM Mod V3.

Thanks for the input.

[heathen]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

[ts]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

[mfrench]

keep it simple

[raymonda]

I use my V3 ACM Oade for cassette transfers at 24/96 and can not hear a difference from the source whether it is vinyl or casettes.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

[ts]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?

My only concern about this is having two preamp (analog) steps...

I think you can get just about the same "flavor" by using the V3 and the digital out...  Right???

Terry

[ts]

Why use the V2 or V3 at all?  Do you hear a difference between its AD converter and that in the 722?

Good question. The answer is yes, depending. I definitely hear a difference in the V3 AD and would hope to hear a big difference in the ACM V3 compared to the 722 AD. More important question to me is the V2 in front of 722. What purpose would this serve? Different flavor?

IMO, I would use either the V3 or ACM V3 > digi > 722.  If you like the analog inputs of the 722, you could skip the V3s.

But in the end, I think you should reduce the number of analog steps as much as possible, and go for what sounds best to you.

For 99% of listeners out there (like me), there will be no difference in how it sounds.

I've been doing Nak > ACM Tascam HD-P2, and I've been very happy with the results.

Terry

The V3 isn’t ACM’ed yet. I was thinking about it. Any votes on V2>722? Add a little Grace flavor to the process?

My only concern about this is having two preamp (analog) steps...

I think you can get just about the same "flavor" by using the V3 and the digital out...  Right???

Terry

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry

[ts]

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry

Yea, I think all my options are pretty solid. Like I said I don’t have the ACM Mod yet and will probably end up passing on it. My V3 is pretty much sold anyway if I choose to let it go.

Basically I’m trying to put my old rig to use before I end up giving it away. The values on V2’s, 3’s and 7xx’s have pretty much shit the bed around here so if I can use this stuff in a transfer rack, why not. 

[RyanJ]

Always like to hear what others do for cassette transfers.

I know my way is probably a sin. But I have always done Nak CR3A > M10. Again, not ideal. But quality difference is probably negligible.

That Tascam deck looks sick. May be the next purchase.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

True, except when going analog out of V3 or V2 I will be going line in on the 722. Nice having the line in option.

Ahh!  I didn't know that the 722 had a line-in...

Take your best tape, transfer it several different ways and then do some testing...  Pick the one you like the best and go with that... 

I think the differences we are talking about are too small to be noticeable to most people...

Terry

Yea, I think all my options are pretty solid. Like I said I don’t have the ACM Mod yet and will probably end up passing on it. My V3 is pretty much sold anyway if I choose to let it go.

Basically I’m trying to put my old rig to use before I end up giving it away. The values on V2’s, 3’s and 7xx’s have pretty much shit the bed around here so if I can use this stuff in a transfer rack, why not.

LOL!  My HD-P2 hasn't left the house in years...  It just sits on top of the "Transfer Stack"...

Every once in a while, I'll start wanting an ACM V3.  But then I kick myself and say, "that's why you got a ACM HD-P2!"

Terry


ETA:  https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189745.msg2294636#msg2294636

[mfrench]

prsently working on cassette transfers myself.
sometimes you open drawers, and you have completely forgotten about masters.
Marantz SD63 -> Tas DR70D 2444

[Chilly Brioschi]

keep it simple

+T
Archiving means not modifying
Use the most transparent means available, then tweak to your heart's content on gen2

[ts]

prsently working on cassette transfers myself.
sometimes you open drawers, and you have completely forgotten about masters.
Marantz SD63 -> Tas DR70D 2444

Nice Moke! Keeping it simple. Curious though, why is the hood open on the Marantz? Azimuth adjust in there somewhere?

[mfrench]

That was me being stupid.
I'd originally set the cass. deck up on this cabinet in the music room, without thinking.  The opposite end of that cabinet has the household WiFi hub on it.
Without thinking or realizing, I attempted a transfer, and, I came up with this weird pulsing sound. My mind tried to turn it into a bad capacitor in the deck. So I opened it up, and looked for overt signs of bad caps; leaking spots, split cans, etc.. I found nothing.
I tried a second transfer, and, came up with the same noise again. WTF?
Then I realized my mistake, and, moved the deck over to another outlet, and tried again; no noise.
I took the pic before I put the lid back on.

[ts]

So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.

[Chilly Brioschi]

^ ugh!
Dry lubricant failure on the hub guide sheets?
Stuck tape guide rollers?

[ts]

Found some good stuff on line for cassette repairs. I’m thinking I should have the belts replaced on the deck to.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.

I assume you FF and RW each tape before transfer???

I have no idea why it would do that except the cassettes have been stored poorly???

Terry

[mfrench]

Found some good stuff on line for cassette repairs. I’m thinking I should have the belts replaced on the deck to.

While I had the lid of my deck off, I did take an alcohol soaked piece of cloth, and I cleaned the flywheel, which was kind of dirty. I also lightly rubed the belt while it was rotating with the same alc. rag, and it came up a bit cleaner as well.

[ts]

So I recently got a batch of tapes from mid 90’s up to 2002. My Nak CR5A folds every one of them. They’re all from the same source deck. Sony D5. My Nak plays anything I throw at it, any year any source, except this batch. What could be the issue? Bad storage? Bad D5? I wanted to try these tapes on the D5 that recorded them but that deck is not working and the owner does not want to repair it. Don’t know what to tell him. Would anyone be interested in trying to transfer these tapes? If it’s the Nak I’ll get it serviced, but I don’t think it is.

I assume you FF and RW each tape before transfer???

I have no idea why it would do that except the cassettes have been stored poorly???

Terry

Yes, I always FF and RW and then clean head and lube rollers after every couple shows. I just hope that crinkled tapes can eventually be used for transfer. I really don’t know why 40 year old tapes play and 20 year olds won’t. 👍😜

I sent the deck to Pro Dig for a check up. Last time I had it serviced was 2005. I’m sure I’ll get to the bottom of it.

[Popmarter]

From doing a lot of cassettetransfers from nakamichi machines (dragon / cr7), i think the best thing to do is make sure the unit is in excellent condition. Spins the tapes a few times, on a different machine (to avoid dirt on the Nak-machine).

Use some good and short cables to connect to the analog in from the unit that records it. Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter. Like said by other...keep it simple. Everything else can be done in post.

I record in 24bit/48 khz. You can go higher if space is no problem, but I really can't think of any technical reason to do so. Make sure to archive the original transfer files, so you can back in case you have to.

[ts]

I sent the deck to Paul at Prodigital. Should be getting it back soon.

[RyanJ]

Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?

[Popmarter]

Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?

In your case most likely: Nak > 722
Again, I believe the - keep it simple -  approach with the cassettedeck being the main concern.

Then there is the Dolby yes/no debate. I prefer Dolby OFF to preserve highs. Only under excellent conditions Dolby is a benefit to some, but in our case (old tapes / different recordertype) it is not.

Second options is too archive both ways (if the master i recorded with dolby on offcourse), one with dolby on, other off.

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

Pick the unit with the 'best' A/D converter.

What would you consider that to be? Also, I have been looking for an external audio card for my Mac Mini for quite some time now. Any suggestions what may be good out there?

In your case most likely: Nak > 722
Again, I believe the - keep it simple -  approach with the cassettedeck being the main concern.

Then there is the Dolby yes/no debate. I prefer Dolby OFF to preserve highs. Only under excellent conditions Dolby is a benefit to some, but in our case (old tapes / different recordertype) it is not.

Second options is too archive both ways (if the master i recorded with dolby on offcourse), one with dolby on, other off.

Whenever I get a Dolby Cassette, I do playback with and without, and get two Transfers...  I let the person who sent me the Cassette decide which they want to Seed...

Terry

[RyanJ]

You connect the cassette deck via RCA > XLR? Can you do the same for a DAT deck with an optical in? This is in regards to 722.

[rigpimp]

I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6

[RyanJ]

I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6

I'm trying to explain this without sounding dumb. But that's not going to happen... Any way to run into these recorders so that the waveform is the same as what is recorded on the media? Instead of having to adjust levels? I feel like sometimes I run it a bit hot and it sounds brickwalled, even though it's not looking that way on the WAV file.

[rigpimp]

I'm not sure that I understand your question. 

I have done literally thousands of cassette transfers.  Shit there is a box of bluegrass tapes at my feet while I type and stacks on my desk collecting dust while I pound through my school work.  I have one of those silly black and white composition books that I use to take notes.  Side A, Side B and their corresponding Mixpre file #s.  I fill an SD card and dump it, make text files, have my historain buddy do a write up and then it all sits idel.

What part isn't going to happen?  If you are brickwalling a digital recorder you probably have your limiters on.  Set the Mixpre so the peaks tick red and you are good.  You should only adjust levels so it does come out like crap.  Anything else can be done in post.  All of mine are residing in raw FlAC'd 24/96 files waiting for some tracking angel to fall from heaven so that I can share them all on the LMA. 

This is all I have been able to upload so far:  https://archive.org/details/thespps

[ts]

I notice that in some transfer lineage that the cassette deck is sometimes listed as just Nakamichi (no model #) or some other random cassette deck. Usually three head decks. Since we are obviously concerned with playback only for transfers are the big dogs like the Dragon and CR7A really necessary? Aren’t the strong points of these masterpieces for recording? For transfers playback azimuth is the strongest point. Some decks there is a knob on the face, auto or take the door off.

[jefflester]

For transfers playback azimuth is the strongest point. Some decks there is a knob on the face, auto or take the door off.

How many non-"Big Dog" decks have manual azimuth adjust*, much less auto? Not many. Any?
*meaning knob, not a screw

[twatts (pants are so over-rated...)]

I used to run Nakamichi > V3 > R-44, but now just run Nakamichi > Mixpre-6

I'm trying to explain this without sounding dumb. But that's not going to happen... Any way to run into these recorders so that the waveform is the same as what is recorded on the media? Instead of having to adjust levels? I feel like sometimes I run it a bit hot and it sounds brickwalled, even though it's not looking that way on the WAV file.

Technically, you could make Test Transfers and re-adjust the input levels on your recorder until you get the same levels on your input as your output.  I'm not sure that's possible via the meters on your cassette deck vs the meters on your recorder.  I think it would take a lot of technical effort and gizmos...

Years ago, I figured out a good "working" input level on my recorder and stick with that.  If I find that I'm running hot (or not hot enough), I'll adjust and start the Tape over... 

But yeah, when going analog to digital, there's no way to do a "perfect" transfer...  Its the nature of the analog beast...

Terry

[ts]

For transfers playback azimuth is the strongest point. Some decks there is a knob on the face, auto or take the door off.

How many non-"Big Dog" decks have manual azimuth adjust*, much less auto? Not many. Any?
*meaning knob, not a screw

Very good point and sorry for the almost two year delay in responding! Honestly I completely forgot about this topic. I believe there are only 4 Naks with auto or a knob (no screw).

BTW I ended up getting rid of my CR5A because of the screw and replaced it with a Cassette Deck 1. The CD1 has a knob. The 5A originally retailed for about $200 more than the CD1. The CD1 was last produced in 1992. I got a good deal on the CD1, <500 with a not so recent service history, and let the the 5A go for a really good price here with a fresh service.

Here’s the four:

Dragon - auto PB adjust. 1982 - 1993. MSRP $2499
CR7A - manual PB adjust. 1986 - 1992. MSRP $1849
DR1 - manual PB adjust. ? - 1993. MSRP $879
CD1 - manual PB adjust. 1990 - 1992. MSRP $879 (The DR1 and CD1 are identical except for the face plates.)

Need to mention, the ZX9 is definitely a big dog, but no auto or manual azimuth adjust.

So some folks don’t mind the screw. I sure did.

[rocksuitcase]

I've recently purchased a 582Z which has manual azimuth adjust via a screw however the screw hole point is very easily defined on the front panel.
I own a non working 680ZX which also has the same thing on its panel. I read the main difference between the 582Z and 680ZX is the 680ZX will do "half-speed" recordings, putting 90 minutes of music per side on a 90 minutes tape, totaling 180 minutes playback time. Who knew?

Check out the graph of production lifespan of their models.
http://www.tapeheads.net/showthread.php?t=48150

[ts]

A lot of the older Naks had the holes in the door for easy access. I used to run the 5A with the door off. 

That deck you got from Ray is really nice. I really liked some of the older decks. I also had a 680ZX, but that was years ago, long before the need to transfer. I traded it in 1987 for a brand new CR5A. I wasn’t looking to do that, but the owner of my local hi-fi shop really wanted the 680zx for his collection and did an even trade. He wanted it because of the 1/2 speed function, which I never used.

[EmRR]

I’ve done a ton of transfers recently on a Tascam 122mkIII that was just rebuilt.  It has the XLR in/out board and I’m using that into a MOTU 16A.

I appreciate the output level control, but was surprised to discover the metered level is before the output level control, for better or worse.  It took some experimenting to see where the tape recorder output electronics were overloading on hot tapes, comparing waveforms on the transfer side. 

Azimuth - i have used a phase scope in software to assess, and it’s wild how much the top end will change, like tall grass in a breeze.  I see the point of auto-azimuth now, and wonder what it looks like with a phase scope.  For the most part the tapes I’ve done are stable beginning to end, but not all, and I’ve adjusted a few as it played.  I knew the beginnings of tapes were almost universally bad, and a bunch of us tapers here way back agreed it was best to avoid the first 20-30 seconds of a tape for recording, and I mostly did.   The occasions a tape starts from the leader have all been noticeably bad, and improve drastically in the first minute or so. I wonder if auto azimuth is able to ride that rodeo trick.

The argument for higher sample rate transfers: speed corrections in post sounding better.