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Author Topic: MK41 config  (Read 12881 times)

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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2024, 09:26:49 AM »
Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating.  If that's above you, so be it.  From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet.  Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline guitard

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2024, 10:05:22 AM »
Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating.  If that's above you, so be it.  From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet.  Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.

Great advice - thanks Lee.
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline guitard

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2024, 09:31:26 AM »
Point them in the direction of wherever the clearest sound is originating.  If that's above you, so be it.  From the second row there may be secondary fill speakers directed toward that area, so look and listen for them and determine if directing toward those rather than the main PA array is the better bet.  Those fills if present might be placed low across the front of the stage, off to either side angled inward, above facing down, or incorporated into the hanging PA itself.

Great advice - thanks Lee.

So, I did what I highly recommend all tapers do—I followed Lee's advice. 8)

I didn't record the opening act Sabaton, but I used their sound to try and figure out where the sound was coming from.  It wasn't very obvious, actually.  As I suspected, the speaker arrays were almost directly above my head and off to the sides—so not much of a factor.  There were wedge and side stage monitors, but all of the band members had IEMs, so I am not sure how much those monitors factored into the on-stage sound.  Although, I suspect there were other speakers on the stage; but they just weren't visible.  There were also no guitar/bass amps visible, but the guitarist on the left side of the stage was much louder in the mix than the guitarist on the right side (I was center-left of the stage).  They were likely in their normal spots, but were covered up. 

I decided to orient the red dots upward about 12-15 degrees (starting from originally being oriented straight forward).

To my ears, in spite of being in the 2nd row, there isn't much snap or clarity to the drums, or for that matter, any of the instruments.  But the vocals (somehow!) come through fairly clear.  Although, it sounds more like a stack tape to me.

Judas Priest posted this picture at their FB page from the end of the show.  If you look closely, you can see me and my grandson. 



We both shot video, which I mixed and synced with the MK41V audio.  Here's a sample:

https://youtu.be/j-YxPuO-jYE
« Last Edit: May 07, 2024, 09:33:58 AM by guitard »
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline todd e

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2024, 10:28:50 AM »
awesome pull, congrats and getting it done

Offline tim in jersey

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2024, 01:08:49 PM »
No mention of how the pipes on the motor scooter sounded. Boo!  :tomato: :lol:

Offline achalsey

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #20 on: May 14, 2024, 04:45:36 PM »
That does sound great.

Off topic of audio, but what did you use to record the video?

Offline guitard

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #21 on: May 15, 2024, 01:10:30 AM »
That does sound great.

Off topic of audio, but what did you use to record the video?

I shot this show with my 13 yr old grandson and we both used Panasonic ZS100s.

Here is a long thread about this camera - started by me five years ago ;D.

https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=189720.0
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline achalsey

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #22 on: May 15, 2024, 11:06:47 AM »
Cool, Thanks.  That's some really solid video for a little point and shoot.

Offline guitard

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2024, 06:26:32 PM »
I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows.  Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side.  When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.

Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume.  This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%.  The results are generally OK.

I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.

I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?

Here's an example of recording in this scenario:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E

Thx!
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

Offline grawk

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2024, 08:13:05 PM »
I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows.  Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side.  When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.

Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume.  This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%.  The results are generally OK.

I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.

I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?

Here's an example of recording in this scenario:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E

Thx!

Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately.  Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2024, 11:24:40 AM »
Good looking video.  I'm watching on a computer with a built-in mono speaker so can't comment on the stereo aspects right now, but agree with Grawk.  Best bet when off to one side is usually balancing the sound by orienting the mic array directly toward the nearer stack.. might get away with somewhat less so if the on-stage amps and drums are loud.   

Maybe don the hat at a rakish angle?
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2024, 12:20:41 PM »
tl;dr, do that, along with some balance correction as needed. ^

..Or alternately, rather than attempting to center the playback image by rotating the mic array to face the apparent acoustic center while recording, an interesting option is to go the opposite route and intentionally emphasize the imbalance between channels, and use that imbalance to good stereo advantage. This requires post work afterward, but can offer some interesting and useful advantages in "stack tape" and sideways-facing situations. The goal becomes getting sufficiently dry, clear, upfront sound from the PA in one channel and "everything else" (audience, stage sound, reverberant room sound, etc) in the other channel, then applying the techniques we've discussed in other threads about how to handle a badly off-center recording using mid/side and pseudo-stereo techniques afterward.  Since we've discussed this a number of times in alternate threads I won't go into to detail here unless you want me to.  Essentially the main or PA-dominant "stack-tape" channel is assigned as Mid channel and the other channel as Side.  Sometimes that alone works fine, along with dialing in the appropriate ratio to taste.  Other times it will cause low frequency content to pull strongly left,  If so there are a couple ways of processing the Side channel to prevent that from happening, and to improve things in additional ways.  The PA "stack" content ends up dominating the center image, while the stage instruments, audience reaction, room sound and everything else featured in the other channel becomes diffusely spread out to the left and right.  It will sound fully stereo but without distinct "only on the left-side verses the right-side" type stereo content, which additionally helps make it more robust to rotations of your your head while making the recording. Head rotation will effect the overall stereo width qualities somewhat, yet in a symmetrical way, rather than altering the stereo balance in a way that makes the image shift toward one side or the other like a change of stereo pan or balance.

It was from playing around with my baffled 4 channel stealth array recordings made in situations where I was off to one side and more or less sideways to the source that I got a good handle on this technique.  The baffled LRCB microphone arrangement I use essentially consists of two pairs of baffled omnis, oriented at right angles to each other- one pair facing Left/Right, the other Front/Back.  Although its not the primary intent of using this recording method, it does provide for experimentation in using those channels as as two separate stereo pairs, where I found I often liked the Mid/Side processed front/back pair as much or more than the direct L/R pair, partly because it provided control over the resulting reverberant balance, but it also often provided a much more interesting and engaging sense of width and depth - in contrast to a more typical stack tape with both mics facing the stack in which the sound is more baked-in and flat sounding.

Other than a few situations where I had a problematic channel or two that rendered a few of the regular LRCB channels unavailable, most of that experimentation was done simply as an exploration of this idea, figuring out how well it works.  In most cases where I was recording from up front and off to one side like this I did end up with four good recorded channels, so I could use them as I usually do after reassigning them to rotate the entire array 90-degrees - so the channel facing the close PA becomes the Center (instead of say, nominal Right), the one facing the audience becomes Back (instead of Left), Center becomes Left, Back becomes Right. ..or rotate everything 90 degrees the opposite direction if recording from the left side of the stage.

I'm not suggesting switching to my 4-ch stealth technique to do the same, only explaining how it provided me with a really great way of testing and comparing these Sum/Difference approaches as an alternate to the traditional Left/Right pair approach. 


With a typical directional stereo pair mounted in a hat (steering this back on topic), the operative choice while recording will be to either orient the mic pair directly toward the PA / loudest close source in an attempt to have that centered in the recording, or to rotate either yourself or the hat 90 degrees to emphasize difference rather than sameness across the two channels.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2024, 12:28:36 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline breakonthru

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2024, 12:29:05 PM »
I occasionally go to small venues with flat floors and low stages for loud rock shows.  Practically speaking, the only place to get a good video shot AND good audio (especially the vocals) is go get up close to the stage on the left or right side.  When I do this, naturally, the MK41V that's nearest to the stack comes out much louder; while the other mic catches more stage audio at a very noticeably lower volume.

Typically, I adjust the L/R balance between the channels in post so that they are closely matched in output volume.  This usually means lowering the louder channel by 20-25%.  The results are generally OK.

I almost always run: mics > actives > Baby Nbox > Sony A10 in a kangaroo.

I wonder if there are some ways of pulling a better tape in this situation?

Here's an example of recording in this scenario:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdi0eIONs9E

Thx!

Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately.  Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.
yeah its tough. the one mic that's pointing more toward the stack always has a better, clearer, more direct sound than the one pointing off into space. often times when i end up with something like this i try to do 60/40 or better into both channels, and sacrifice the image for a clearer, more monophonic pull. Best ive found if im on the side is to cock my hat sideways so i can still watch the show without recording in that direction if it makes sense. a B rig with small omnis like 406x can save the day here as well

Offline guitard

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Re: MK41 config
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2024, 11:01:30 AM »
Best bet when off to one side is usually balancing the sound by orienting the mic array directly toward the nearer stack. might get away with somewhat less so if the on-stage amps and drums are loud.   

Maybe don the hat at a rakish angle?
Up close and off center, your best bet is to aim both mics at the stack that's closest unfortunately.  Adjusting balance when things are that unbalanced won't sound natural.

yeah its tough. the one mic that's pointing more toward the stack always has a better, clearer, more direct sound than the one pointing off into space. often times when i end up with something like this i try to do 60/40 or better into both channels, and sacrifice the image for a clearer, more monophonic pull. Best ive found if im on the side is to cock my hat sideways so i can still watch the show without recording in that direction if it makes sense. a B rig with small omnis like 406x can save the day here as well

Sorry for not responding sooner.  I wanted to first try out the method all three of you suggested; and then respond.  That opportunity came this past Friday when I went to see Sammy Hagar at Pine Knob in Clarkston (Detroit area stop).  At this show, I turned the kangaroo about 30-35° to the right.  Due to the Shapeways, that was about as far as I could comfortably turn it.  The resulting audio pull still leaned heavier on the right MK41V, but not as much as before; and a simple re-balance turned out sounding nice to my ears.  I suspect that is at least in part because the left MK41V was also able to pull some pretty nice stage audio.  One other thing I notice about the 41Vs vs the regular 41s I used to record with - even when I turn my head 50-60° to the left to get a video shot, I don't hear very much phasing at all; but maybe that's wishful thinking confirmation bias ;D.

Here is a ten second video clip that shows how the speakers in my proximity were arranged:  https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mElnt-BMK9DgzY3ecrUubhkyPL97IzYA/view?usp=sharing

Video I shot of the full show synced with my MK41V audio:  https://youtu.be/et9EBjYqvjk

Note: I followed the recommendation in YouTube's guidelines and encoded the audio at 384 kbits; which practically speaking, is about the same as a 384 bit mp3.
Mics: Schoeps MK41s & MK41Vs >:D
Pre-amps: BabyNbox & Platinum Nbox
Deck: Sony A10

Video: Canon HF G70 (4K), Sony FDR AX100 (4K), Pany ZS100 (4K)
Photo: Canon EOS 7D w/ Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L is III USM

A/V software: Sony Vegas Pro 18 (build 527) 64 bit / DVD Architect Pro 6.0 (build 237)

 

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