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Author Topic: Acoustic Recording Techniques  (Read 51418 times)

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Offline Thelonius

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #60 on: July 29, 2024, 05:40:25 PM »
Thanks gents, this is exactly the feedback I was looking for.

I have two follow up questions:
1) If I choose to go with three microphones (two adjacent NOS setup with slightly reduced angle and increased spacing, sharing a center) how important is microphone matching? As I don't have three identical mics the closest I could get would probably be the 461s for L/R with a 414 center (I'm assuming I would use the cardioid polar pattern for the 414).
2) Is there a single mic bar that you would recommend that would accomplish this or do I need to run my normal stereo bar with an additional mic stand for the center mic?

Thanks again!

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #61 on: July 29, 2024, 09:39:11 PM »
Thanks gents, this is exactly the feedback I was looking for.

I have two follow up questions:
1) If I choose to go with three microphones (two adjacent NOS setup with slightly reduced angle and increased spacing, sharing a center) how important is microphone matching? As I don't have three identical mics the closest I could get would probably be the 461s for L/R with a 414 center (I'm assuming I would use the cardioid polar pattern for the 414).
2) Is there a single mic bar that you would recommend that would accomplish this or do I need to run my normal stereo bar with an additional mic stand for the center mic?

Thanks again!
2 ideas from me.
1] Manfrotto triple bar- is a bit heavy and probably too much ( money) for this one gig you describe   https://www.manfrotto.com/us-en/black-aluminum-triple-microphone-support-154b/
2] (NOT JUST a mic bar) but Smallrig rods and clamps- kindms bought and we use for most OMT we run.    https://www.smallrig.com/15mm-carbon-fiber-rod-30cm-12inch-2pcs-851.html   
                                                                                                                                                                       https://www.smallrig.com/list/Rod-Clamp.html
                                                                                                                                                                      https://www.smallrig.com/smallrig-single-railblock-860.html      (the mic mount)
smallrig is lightweight, modular, and awesome imo. kindms has 4 12" rods with connectors and we have enough mic mounts and pass through clamps to attach to a mic stand. 
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Thelonius

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #62 on: July 30, 2024, 07:51:50 AM »
Thank you for the ideas. The manfrotto bar on a mini tripod at the stage lip is a great option (whether2 or 3 mics). Thank you again for the ideas, they are very helpful!

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #63 on: July 30, 2024, 10:24:01 AM »
Thank you for the ideas. The manfrotto bar on a mini tripod at the stage lip is a great option (whether2 or 3 mics). Thank you again for the ideas, they are very helpful!
welcome.  the triple bar
is LARGE and heavy.
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #64 on: July 30, 2024, 11:06:32 AM »
If I choose to go with three microphones (two adjacent NOS setup with slightly reduced angle and increased spacing, sharing a center) how important is microphone matching?  As I don't have three identical mics the closest I could get would probably be the 461s for L/R with a 414 center (I'm assuming I would use the cardioid polar pattern for the 414).

Not critical.  Decent matching is arguably a more important when recording in a more uniform soundfield.  On-stage and relatively close to the instruments you are sort of in a zone that lies between mic'ing the full ensemble with a single stereo array (where matching is somewhat more important) and individually spot mic'ing the three instruments (where it isn't).  Sort of a blend of both approaches, which is one reason I think it works well.

That said, always nice to use the same mics across the primary stereo array, as the identical response helps with consistency of image, smoothness across the soundstage, and the sense of depth.  I'll usually put the different mic in the center to maintain L/R symmetry, so any difference in timbre, which may be most apparent in the ambient/reverberant part of the recording, will manifest symmetrically across the center verses the sides, rather than one side verses the other.  Consistency of response/timbre is the general goal.  Polar pattern not so much. You can use a completely different polar pattern in the center without a problem.  In your situation where the L/R angle can be somewhat wide without problems it might help to use a somewhat wider polar pattern in the center than the sides, but should work fine using three cardioids.

In my OMT arrays I go back and forth between using identical mics across the L/C/R triplet to using a different pattern in the center.  I usually like using three identical mics, but have recently been switching to a more directional shotgun mic in the center when I want to nail a clear and distinct center from somewhat more of a distance.  Which is in a way, sort of the opposite of your on-stage situation. Horses for courses.

Years ago, I did a lot of on-stage acoustic jazz trio recordings over the course of a couple years, and settled on using three AKD TL's set to supercardioid pattern, placed as low as possible to the stage floor, arranged in a triangle with about a 90degree angle between the L/R pairs, angled up at the players positioned to either side of a central drum kit, with the center mic pointed up at the snare, just off center of the kick to avoid the direct "whump".  The supercardioid pattern helped with the narrow 90deg overall angle between L and R mics, and provided a bit more separation from the audience, which was being picked up by another dedicated pair facing out into the room.  The room/audience facing pair was very nice to have but not strictly necessary, but that three mic arrangement worked so well it became my go to for on-stage recording, and was later worked it into most of my recording arrays.  I like the three mic' stereo thing for taping.
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Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Thelonius

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #65 on: July 30, 2024, 11:28:00 AM »
This makes a lot of sense. I’m now thinking that the 3 mic PAS approach, with the c461a at 120 degree and 13 cm spacing with one 414 in supercardioid in the centre, allowing me to dial in the tuba a bit if required, may be a good starting point. Setting up about 12” off the stage floor and ensuring that the microphone on the right is off axis to the kick drum could be an excellent starting point.

I am always happy to record further back, in the sweet spot, for these types of shows but this approach seems to manage the crowd noise more effectively while providing an opportunity to balance the levels a bit if required.

Thanks again, this is extremely helpful.

Offline Thelonius

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #66 on: July 30, 2024, 11:29:34 AM »

[/quote]
welcome.  the triple bar
is LARGE and heavy.
[/quote]

Thanks again, I have ordered one and will plan for mounting it on something sturdy!

Offline rocksuitcase

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #67 on: July 30, 2024, 12:34:38 PM »
welcome.  the triple bar
is LARGE and heavy.
====================
Thanks again, I have ordered one and will plan for mounting it on something sturdy!
welcome to the triple bar club. I was speaking with Noah at Phish and looking at his bar mentioned I own one too, and he said, I own two!      8) >:D

BTW Gut-  "did a lot of on-stage acoustic jazz trio recordings over the course of a couple years, and settled on using three AKD TL's set to supercardioid pattern, placed as low as possible to the stage floor"
I recall a nice thread with photos. Does that still exist to show thelonius?
« Last Edit: July 30, 2024, 02:33:21 PM by rocksuitcase »
music IS love

When you get confused, listen to the music play!

Mics:         AKG460|CK61|CK1|CK3|CK8|Beyer M 201E|DPA 4060 SK
Recorders:Marantz PMD661 OADE Concert mod; Tascam DR680 MKI x2; Sony PCM-M10

Offline Chanher

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #68 on: July 30, 2024, 02:12:09 PM »
Can you find a place where all the instruments sound well balanced?

I don't know how many similiar recording I've "ruined" by not following this advice. I would get so excited at the opportunity, I'd fail to realize certain instruments (usually the drums) would dominate a stage lip recording and not adjust accordingly. Yes, there was a wonderful upfront sound that you don't have with pure audience recordings, but with the mix of instruments being off (and usually unfixable), it's essentially unlistenable.

I think gut mentioned possibly setting up between the sax and tuba (further away from drums), and it's something to think about. Obviously the tuba is a great candidate to be low in the mix, and getting a supercardioid directly in front of and pointed at it (like you mentioned) could allow you to boost that mic in post and balance the mix. I apologize if I'm repeating anyone's advice, I'm slammed at work and haven't had time to read thoroughly but I wish you luck, sometimes you get these right and they're such wonderful recordings!
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #69 on: July 30, 2024, 03:25:52 PM »
BTW Gut-  "did a lot of on-stage acoustic jazz trio recordings over the course of a couple years, and settled on using three AKD TL's set to supercardioid pattern, placed as low as possible to the stage floor"
I recall a nice thread with photos. Does that still exist to show thelonius?

Yes! Was just coming back to post a link to the long-running on-stage taping tread where all that was going on, and it dovetails nicely with this one.  Voltronic, if you are reading, can you add a link to that thread along with your others at the start of this one?  Lots of good stuff in there.

Couple photos from that thread-




^
That second photo also includes another taper's rig on the slightly taller stand (AKG > Naiant little box > M10 and DVD battery visible on-stage), and an additional MG ORTF pair I was running for comparison in the Shure vert bar.  The LCR ADKs beat out the MG ORTF, but both were great.

« Last Edit: July 31, 2024, 05:44:19 PM by Gutbucket »
musical volition > vibrations > voltages > numeric values > voltages > vibrations> virtual teleportation time-machine experience
Better recording made easy - >>Improved PAS table<< | Made excellent- >>click here to download the Oddball Microphone Technique illustrated PDF booklet<< (note: This is a 1st draft, now several years old and in need of revision!  Stay tuned)

Offline Thelonius

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Re: Acoustic Recording Techniques
« Reply #70 on: August 02, 2024, 08:56:51 AM »
Thank you for linking that stage recording thread. I’m working through it and it is indeed very relevant for acoustic recordings.

 

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