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Author Topic: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount  (Read 7469 times)

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Offline voltronic

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Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« on: December 07, 2023, 09:23:11 PM »
My mic bar is one of followinbob's, which is fantastic but doesn't have mount for a center mic. When I mount a center near-coincident pair, I cobble together some bits that wind up having the center pair much farther forward than the outer spaced pair.

Tonight I realized that the dado ball could help solve this problem, and sure enough I can now easily time-align all 4 mics.
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Offline dactylus

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2023, 10:50:18 AM »

Great idea!!

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Offline voltronic

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2023, 03:40:08 PM »
This is what I could cobble together with the hardware I currently have. But this morning I realized I could accomplish this in a much easier way by just having a 3/8" screw that protrudes through the threading on the bar long enough that I could mount something to it. All of the 5/8"F>3/8"M mic stand adapters don't seem to be long enough, but the Impact version of the Rapid Adapter looks like it might work if I remove the jam nut.

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/824403-REG/Impact_ca_102_Rapid_Baby_to_3_8.html

Another option would be using the Manfrotto Triple Microphone Holder, but it's far bulkier and heavier than the elegant followinbob bar.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/503258-REG/Manfrotto_154B_154_Triple_Microphone_Holder.html
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Online aaronji

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2023, 04:03:17 PM »
Maybe a Manfrotto 026, or knock-off, would work? I recently got one and it has proven very useful. The friction fit on the rotating part worried me initially, but it'll hold anything I need to put on it (extension pole, mic bar, mics).

I have a 154B that I bought for spacing omnis. I used it quite a bit; it is sturdy and does the job, but it is indeed VERY bulky and heavy.

Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2023, 05:42:21 PM »
The deeper question is what the ideal time-alignment is for the array you are using, and the location you are using it from. Its not necessarily all microphones sharing the same plane (as can be seen when playing with some of the multichannel visual imaging tools, or looking at William's multichannel stereozoom solutions).  But if what is optimal is unknown, then all in one plane is most the logical thing to do.

Optimally managing time alignment and imaging is why the geometry my multichannel arrays tend to be wide with far less front/back dimension.. but some front/back dimension is frequently imporant and better than having all mics in the same left/right plane.
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Offline Chanher

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2023, 06:39:00 PM »
The deeper question is what the ideal time-alignment is for the array you are using, and the location you are using it from.

Yes you’ve previously discussed FORWARD placement of the center mic in a 3-mic LCR (left center right) array and I’ve always been super curious about experimenting with this but just haven’t been able to get around to it. I’d like to try extreme forward placement (+1 ft.), moderate ~6”, and then an even horizontal plane all in the same show. I imagine with a center near-coincidental pair the same theory(ies) apply?

Voltronic, jimmy-rigging homemade and professional mic mounting gear is a personal pastime of mine; I always had the time-alignment (or horizontal plane) problem and am curious if you or anyone has just gone ahead and recorded with forward center mics?

I don’t want to waste a show with a weird alignment, but couldn’t you just delay the center mic(s) using the 1 millisecond per foot rule?
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2023, 11:10:07 PM »
Maybe a Manfrotto 026, or knock-off, would work? I recently got one and it has proven very useful. The friction fit on the rotating part worried me initially, but it'll hold anything I need to put on it (extension pole, mic bar, mics).

I have something already that serves the same purpose as the 026 - the On-Stage Posi-Lok clutch, with 3/8 adapters on each end. And substituting it here to have it angle back at 45° would basically give me the equivalent of the Dado ball I used.

The whole thing works but is too many parts for my OCD. That's why I was thinking of just having a longer 3/8" screw coming out of the top of the bar that I could mount to as being much simpler. If that would set my central mics too far back for my liking, I would probably use the Posi-Lok to get them out more forward as needed.
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2023, 11:47:53 PM »
The deeper question is what the ideal time-alignment is for the array you are using, and the location you are using it from.
Voltronic, jimmy-rigging homemade and professional mic mounting gear is a personal pastime of mine; I always had the time-alignment (or horizontal plane) problem and am curious if you or anyone has just gone ahead and recorded with forward center mics?

I don’t want to waste a show with a weird alignment, but couldn’t you just delay the center mic(s) using the 1 millisecond per foot rule?

Well, the engineers at Decca made thousands of orchestral recordings with their Tree, and that's a very forward center mic.

As for me, I've never done it intentionally. The first >2 mic array I ever used successfully was Tony Faulkner's 4-mic phased array of subcards and omnis. Having the four capsules aligned in that array is required, or else you don't have a phased array and the additional "reach" that comes with it. But the idea of keeping all your mics that are part of one array on one stand stuck with me as a "correct" starting point, unless you are purposely making a large front-back separation as in Decca Tree, various surround arrays, and the type of setups Gutbucket uses.

I actually did have this same exact array setup at a rehearsal with the same choir in the same space back in October, but my center Gerzon cardiods were a few inches forward of the omnis. I didn't care at the time because I was never intending to mix the two pairs. They were two different options I was trying out. It wasn't until yesterday when I was prepping my gear that I pulled up the project file from the October rehearsal and listened to the two pairs mixed for the first time, and it sounded quite good in the right ratio, but I thought having everything more precisely in phase might improve it. Hence this little arrangement.

Once I get to editing, I'll post some samples over on Acoustic Recording Techniques.
https://taperssection.com/index.php?topic=203942.0
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2024, 10:54:01 AM »
Back to add some additional detail about center mic alignment, feel free to skip this read if not interested in the technical side of all this-

The classic Decca tree arrangement is sort of a special case as it is essentially placed "inside" the ensemble, which more or less wraps around it.  Sounds arrive at the array from a very wide angle, in essence converging in on it from a half-circle.

In contrast most tapers are dealing with sound arriving from farther out in front of the recording position, in more of a plane-wave like fashion (this is a gross simplification, but bear with it for the purpose of discussion). In that case, there are a couple things going on acoustically.  One is the time-alignment of transient information.  If we really were dealing with a plane-wave, an array of mics placed along a straight line with no forward spacing of the center position, oriented perpendicular to the wavefront arrival would capture it simultaneously in time in all channels.  There would be no time arrival differences across channels. I think this is what most tapers have in mind when they think about time-aligning the center mic position.  Plane waves arriving from directions other than directly in front will produce increasing time of arrival offsets, which will be greatest for a wavefront arriving from fully left or right (+/-90 degrees), as happens with any spaced pair.

Complicating that is the question of whether we really want full time alignment for that front arriving plane wave or not.  Maybe we want to leverage human hearing cues by pinging the center mic position slightly ahead of the L/R positions to strongly  anchor the center in a perceptual sense.

Another aspect is managing the imaging overlap between each pair of microphone channels.  Two spaced microphones will produce a stereo recording angle that is related to the spacing between them (sensitivity pattern and mic angle also play a role, but ignore that for now).   As the spacing between a pair of microphones is made larger, the stereo recording angle grows narrower, but it never actually reaches zero degrees - its edges always splay out wider than the spacing between microphones.  So each pair of microphones produces its own imaging angle, the middle of which which is perpendicular to the line between those two microphones, and the edges of which are angled outward from that center perpendicular line.  If we place all the microphones in a straight line, those outward angled edges will overlap each other.  If we want the edges of each imaging segment to line up nicely with each other instead, so that they hand-off cleanly from one to the next, we need to introduce curvature to the array to angle each segment farther apart until the edges of each segment align.  We can do that in a 3-position mic array by moving the center microphone position forward.

There are complications of course.  Three microphone positions create not just two separate imaging segments but three. We might align the edges of the L-C and C-R imaging segments nicely by pushing the center mic position forward, but the separate L-R imaging segment is going to be considerably narrower than either (because those two microphones are spaced more widely), and will overlap them both.  Leveraging pattern can help manage that. Additionally, it's possible to "steer" the imaging sector of each pair one way or another by carefully leveraging microphone position, time delay, and sensitivity pattern, making it possible to do so asymmetrically where required.  The multichannel Willliams arrays use that technique, some of which require time-delay to get the sectors to line up properly.

It gets complicated!  Not saying what's right or wrong here, just laying out what's going on and the ways in which it can be manipulated.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2024, 12:23:36 PM by Gutbucket »
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Offline voltronic

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2024, 12:31:19 PM »
Thanks for adding this additional info. You're very right about the Decca Tree being inside the orchestra (at least the center mic definitely is).
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2024, 01:36:46 PM »
The "Decca Tree" setup as conventionally defined (and which dozens of Web sites seem to have copied from one another without ever checking with anyone from Decca) is just one setup that was used sometimes. Decca varied their setups and experimented continually. They never stopped fiddling with the setup. Very often there were baffles between the left and right microphones and the center mike--evidently it was felt that too much of the same sound was reaching all three at the same time. Sometimes the microphones had large dual-diaphragm, pressure gradient capsules which produced a roughly "omni" pattern by summing two back-to-back cardioids; that gives very different results from small pressure transducers embedded in 40 mm spheres. (I don't know whether anyone actually preferred the dual-diaphragm mikes for this application or whether it was a matter of what was available.) "Outrigger" microphones were often employed for orchestras and other large ensembles. Soloists were close-miked. Etc., etc., etc.

Even the recordings that were made with M 50 microphones (designed by the NWDR and assigned to Neumann for manufacture, but the NWDR always considered it "their" microphone) used different generations of capsules with very different characteristics--there were at least four generations. The earliest ones had a huge on-axis high frequency elevation, like up to 10 dB--those were fully diffuse-field-equalized types from the mono era, in which just one microphone would be used at quite a distance from all the sound sources in a large concert hall. Those mikes would be considered harsh sounding and unusable today. For stereo, no one uses recording distances like that any more, so the characteristics of the capsules have to take that into account.

Decca's engineers logged their setups and often took photos; these documents are largely preserved, and I've seen a presentation based on dozens of them. I don't remember for sure whether there even was one setup that matches the conventional definition.

It ought to raise alarm bells whenever anyone proposes that one setup could possibly be optimal for all (or even most) recording situations. Decca's engineers were very picky about where they were willing to record; they had specific sonic characteristics that they required from a hall. The same could be said of Telarc, Vanguard, RCA in its golden era, and Elite Recordings (the late Marc Aubort and, while she was still alive, Joanna Nickrenz); they were all sometimes forced to record in a venue not of their choosing--but when they could choose, they specifically sought the places where their respective, preferred methods and equipment were known to work to their liking.

In other situations they adapted like crazy, as we all have to.

« Last Edit: January 22, 2024, 01:59:35 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2024, 05:51:35 PM »
For stereo, no one uses recording distances like that any more [..snip]
^
Except taper-section concert tapers for whom it remains quite common! ..although most are recording PA amplified concerts rather than acoustic symphonic ones.

DSatz,
Can you shed some additional insight on forward spacing of a center-microphone position? Any applicable references you can recommend that we might seek out are also welcome. I know using more than two microphones is not your personally preferred stereo recording methodology, yet have deep respect your opinion, knowledge and experience.

The primary references I've been working from in thinking about this and trying various approaches, are:
1) Image Assistant at the Schoeps website. Specifically using it's capability of analyzing 3-microphone arrays, some of which include at least in part..

1) IRT cross.
Rotated 45° so that one channel of the four faces directly forward. That equates to ~18cm forward spacing of the center position if using the typical IRT-cross spacing of 25cm between cardioids, or ~14cm forward using with the standard IRT-cross spacing of 20cm between supercardioids. 

2) Günther Thiele's OCT (Optimum Cardioid Triangle) and OCT2 arrangements.
OCT is intended for 3-speaker playback and uses a relatively minor 8cm forward spacing of the center microphone position (in combination with significantly wider spaced L/R supercards, oriented+/-90°), while OCT2 seeks to better accommodate 2-ch stereo playback by using a greater 40cm forward spacing of the center position to better decorellate reverberant pickup across the three microphone channels, along with a compensating delay applied to that channel to realign wavefront arrival timing for correct imaging of the primary sound sources located in front of the array.

3) Michael William's multichannel array designs, which use various amounts of forward spacing as required to get the imaging segments to line up and hand off to one another depending on polar pattern, angle and spacing of the L/R pair.  Some of which use a quite large forward center spacing in combination with delay, similar to OCT2.

All of the above seem to be based on achieving smooth image distribution without excessive overlap or 'hole' between the different 2-microphone sectors.  None of them place 3 microphone positions in a single line.  As you mention, Decca tree is not really specified other than being triangular and typically using larger spacing distances, but similarly places the center microphone farther forward of the other two.

Thoughts?


Somewhat more OT, but I'm curious..
[snip..] Sometimes the microphones [that Decca was using] had large dual-diaphragm, pressure gradient capsules which produced a roughly "omni" pattern by summing two back-to-back cardioids; that gives very different results from small pressure transducers embedded in 40 mm spheres. (I don't know whether anyone actually preferred the dual-diaphragm mikes for this application or whether it was a matter of what was available.) [..snip]

In the past you've mentioned the improved pattern behavior of well designed single diaphragm small diaphragm condenser microphones compared with large diaphragm microphones using back to back diaphragms and electrically-switched patterns - in particular how that's especially relevant for omnis  Can you talk a bit more about the  typical errors inherent to the second approach? Is it primarily a non-smooth off axis pattern at high frequencies where the diameter of the diaphragms are "acoustically large" in comparison to wavelength?

Quote
It ought to raise alarm bells whenever anyone proposes that one setup could possibly be optimal for all (or even most) recording situations. Decca's engineers were very picky about where they were willing to record; they had specific sonic characteristics that they required from a hall. The same could be said of Telarc, Vanguard, RCA in its golden era, and Elite Recordings (the late Marc Aubort and, while she was still alive, Joanna Nickrenz); they were all sometimes forced to record in a venue not of their choosing--but when they could choose, they specifically sought the places where their respective, preferred methods and equipment were known to work to their liking.

In other situations they adapted like crazy, as we all have to.

Seems common to TS concert tapers as well. Most tapers tend to gravitate to recording arrangements that work well for them in their most commonly encountered situations, and then adapt those arrangements (to various degrees, sometimes not at all) when recording in significantly different situations.  I find most tend to do so with a degree of "mindset inertia" regarding what worked well for them in the more typical situation.  But that's human.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2024, 08:56:42 AM by Gutbucket »
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Offline DSatz

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2024, 09:34:36 PM »
Hmm. As to the "no one uses recording distances like that any more", I would still say it, because in the 1930s through 1950s, apart from a few experiments, that usage was for mono pickup by a single, well-placed microphone in a well-balanced concert hall. What tapers typically do is different: making a kind of stereo by putting two or more mono setups at roughly equal distances from the sound source(s), aimed and/or spaced apart from each other to some extent to create difference information. As you indicate, the loudspeakers project direct sound farther into the space than would occur without amplification, improving the ratio of direct to reflected sound at least in some range(s) of frequencies. And to the extent that there's a roughly even match of direct and reflected sound energy, conventional stereo miking techniques still make some sense. But what the loudspeakers project at the recording position vs. what's going all around the room is all very frequency- and room- and loudspeaker-dependent.

Again, as I've said, to me it never makes sense to idealize any one recording technique, or to invest one's identity in using it, because there will always be situations in which it's not optimal. The methods and tools to which you refer are all based on the assumption of acoustic sound sources in well-balanced, reverberant spaces--not the output of loudspeaker arrays in rooms of indifferent sonics. So I wouldn't look too deeply into these formally derived, mainly classical-music-oriented methods, except maybe for general inspiration.

--As for small vs. large / single vs. double diaphragm microphones: Yes, this mainly comes up w/r/t omnis because that's where the behavioral differences are most marked, and where large and/or dual-diaphragm microphones are at the greatest disadvantage compared to good small, single-diaphragm types. With apologies to those who've heard this all before: The fundamental point about polar (directional) patterns of actual microphones--as opposed to their idealized response at 1 kHz--is that when a microphone has different polar response at different audio frequencies, logically and to the same extent, it must also have differing frequency response for sound arriving at different angles of incidence. Those two things are inseparably two sides of the same coin. Conversely if a microphone has the same frequency response at all angles of sound incidence, it must have the same polar response across the frequency spectrum. (Before proceeding further, it's worth thinking through why this must be so, if one hasn't done so previously.)

Next layer: Because of the disturbing effect on the sound field caused by any solid object with physical dimensions greater than half a wavelength at 20 kHz, constant polar response across the frequency range is physically impossible for any pressure transducer of practical size. Very small measurement microphones come close, but are way too noisy to use as studio microphones in the modern era. All real-world "omnidirectional" studio/recording microphones are thus compromises of various kinds, and engineers over the years have learned not only how to live with this, but in many cases to take positive advantage of it.

This in itself is nothing new. Large, single-diaphragm pressure transducers were the first and only professional condenser microphones on the market for the first decade or so of the existence of professional condenser microphones for recording and broadcasting. Condenser microphones in their modern form were invented and patented in 1916 as measuring devices for the telephone company. Improved versions from Western Electric and RCA were marketed for broadcasting, public address systems, recording and film sound starting in the 1920s. Eventually Neumann entered the field ca. 1927, but again, made nothing but large-diaphragm pressure transducers for years. The pickup pattern of these early models was narrower at 8 kHz than any shotgun microphone is today, while at 200 Hz it was essentially omnidirectional. A polar graph published by Telefunken in 1938 for a second-generation Neumann "bottle" microphone is attached. This pattern was called "normal" back then; terms such as omnidirectional, unidirectional and bidirectional came only later. Aiming this type of microphone was obviously critical, but it maintained good "focus" at quite some distance from the sound source, as compared to an actual omnidirectional microphone. Plus these microphones were fully diffuse-field equalized; their excess high-frequency pickup helped compensate for the high-frequency losses of AM broadcasting and 78 rpm phonograph records of the time. Again, this huge divergence in polar pattern across the frequency range is mainly a function of using such a large diaphragm in a pressure transducer. For mono pickup, such strange-looking (but reliable and regularly repeatable) polar response was actually quite useful to engineers who learned how to exploit it.

Since the narrowing of the pattern is wavelength-dependent, if you miniaturize the entire capsule, the narrowing moves up in frequency to a corresponding degree, leaving more of the midrange truly (or very nearly) omnidirectional. The state of the art since the early 1950s has allowed "quiet enough" omni capsules to have about a 20 mm diameter (the active diaphragm area being of course somewhat less) and to be "omni enough" across enough of the frequency range to support the modern recording idiom, in which it's a definite advantage for the pickup of high frequencies to be narrower than the lower part of the range. Most diffuse sound isn't picked up with as much brightness and detail as direct sound is--and that is what listeners have come to expect over the past ~75 years of such microphones being available. Within a few years, stereo recording became important first in broadcasting, then in recording; the old, large-diaphragm pressure microphones fell by the wayside almost entirely.

There are smaller omni mikes that don't have as much narrowing of the pattern, but they're considerably noisier, and their relatively greater brightness of off-axis sound pickup generally detracts from the listening experience, at least with conventional spaced-omni recording techniques.

As far as the synthetic "omni" setting of dual-diaphragm capsules is concerned, I suggest that you look at the detailed polar and frequency response graphs from the best manufacturers that offer them--Neumann being the obvious example. Pressure transducers have better low-frequency response and pick up far less solid-borne sound or wind noise; they pick up low frequencies the same way regardless of distance from the source (no proximity effect); their high-frequency polar response narrows gradually and favors the front rather than both the front and back (note the "propeller-shaped" pickup pattern of most dual-diaphragm multi-pattern mikes in their "omni" settings); their impulse response is cleaner by a considerable margin; and being closed behind the diaphragm, they can be placed in solid spheres to enhance the frontal response in the upper midrange "presence" frequencies.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2024, 01:08:14 PM by DSatz »
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2024, 06:05:58 PM »
Thanks.

Again, as I've said, to me it never makes sense to idealize any one recording technique, or to invest one's identity in using it, especially in situations where it's not optimal. The methods and tools to which you refer are all based on the assumption of acoustic sound sources in well-balanced, reverberant spaces--not the output of loudspeaker arrays in rooms of indifferent sonics. So I wouldn't look too deeply into these formally derived, mainly classical-music-oriented methods, except maybe for general inspiration.

Fully agreed on not idealizing any one technique.  That's actually the root of my inquiry about any alternate references on the use of a center microphone position you might point me to.  My take has been that the arrangements mentioned above are well-considered and well-regarded starting points, all of which benefit from being further adapted to the situations tapers encounter.  I feel I've gained a deeper understanding from trying them and thinking about the fundamental design ideas on which those techniques are based - from what they share in common and from how they differ.  And importantly, confirming that over time by trying variations and homing in on what works and what doesn't.  General inspiration, via some of their specific properties, I suppose.

Not sure I agree about the usage case against very small omnis for tapers.  Over the years I've gone from using miniature omnis which have a very nearly fully omnidirectional pattern up to 15hKz or so when mounted in free space (done in such a way that no dimension of the microphone or its adjacent mounting system exceeds 0.25"), to flush mounting those same omnis in spheres to intentionally change their response and directionality at high frequencies, mounting them on significantly larger baffles.. and back again to tiny omnis in free space.  I've found there are a good specific usage cases for all of those approaches.  Different tools, useful in different situations.  Yes tiny omnis are nosier, yet for at least some of them their self-noise is quieter than the acoustic noise floor of the room, and they allow for some arrangements that would otherwise be impractical to implement.
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Solution for time-aligning center mics without center mount
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2024, 07:01:29 PM »
One more question on dual-diaphragm "summed cardioid" omnis-

[snip..] As far as the synthetic "omni" setting of dual-diaphragm capsules is concerned, I suggest that you look at the detailed polar and frequency response graphs from the best manufacturers that offer them--Neumann being the obvious example. Pressure transducers have better low-frequency response and pick up far less solid-borne sound or wind noise; they pick up low frequencies the same way regardless of distance from the source (no proximity effect); their high-frequency polar response narrows gradually and favors the front rather than both the front and back (note the "propeller-shaped" pickup pattern of most dual-diaphragm multi-pattern mikes in their "omni" settings); their impulse response is cleaner by a considerable margin; and being closed behind the diaphragm, they can be placed in solid spheres to enhance the frontal response in the upper midrange "presence" frequencies.

^This starts to get to the intent of my second question about omnis. I'm aware of the polar plot shapes but am curious about what is going behind the scenes.  If all unidirectional patterns can be understood as the sum of omnidirectional and bi-directional components (pressure | velocity) in different proportions, including electrically-switched back-to-back dual-diaphragm native-cardioid diaphragms, when such a microphone is used in omni mode, the bi-directional (velocity) components are summed with inverse polarity and cancel each other out, leaving the underlying omni components.  Even if that is not achieved perfectly in the real world, due to diaphragm size and less than perfect coincidence, I would imagine most the things you mention that are consequences of the bi-directional velocity component (increase in solid-born noise, susceptibility to wind-noise, proximity effect) should also cancel out.. at least for the most part.  Why is that not the case?  I can somewhat see how low frequency response attenuation would be greater as that should be related to the how much better sealed the back chamber is in pressure omnis using much tinier pressure-equalization venting, but above that attenuated lowest frequency zone, if the cancellation works to achieve the desired pattern, why does it not also cancel out solid-born and wind-noise and proximity effect?

Okay, enough annoying questions from me for now!
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