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Author Topic: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic  (Read 3326 times)

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Offline goodcooker

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Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« on: June 16, 2024, 02:03:51 PM »

I've always been interested in the Soundfield and ambisonic mics but early on having the clock synced channel count available and the associated post work didn't really seem to be worth all the trouble to me. But time marches on and technology improves, shrinks and gets lighter  :)

Found these while reading about Michael Gerzon -

https://voyage.audio/spatialmic/

There's a DANTE enabled version (which I know next to nothing about) that's $3k. Then there's a USB/ADAT version that's only $1k.
Monitoring and gain adjustments on the mic and a calibration that loaded onto the mic itself. Interesting.
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Offline SMsound

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2024, 03:57:13 PM »
Very interesting for those of us that have thought about tetramic but not made the leap yet. $1k is an amazing price point for an all-in-one.

Do we know anything about the quality of the capsules, preamps, and A/D?
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Offline Gutbucket

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2024, 06:56:31 PM »
Interesting will check out the link..
On brief first look just opening the link it looks like it uses 8-capsules/channels like OctoMic which is the 2nd order ambisonic big brother to the 4-channel first-order TetraMic.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2024, 08:16:51 PM »

The thing that would make this less of a "taper" mic would be the lack of analog output. I would either use it USB directly into my laptop or into the ADAT input on my interface - neither of which I would bring to a typical taper gig. But I have been building my multi track rig and for now at least I have an 18 input interface - 8 of those channels being an ADAT input - so this would be an awesome addition.

I guess if I wanted to be able to use it with the ambisonic plugin on my Mixpre6 I'd have to go with something like the Rode Soundfield mic that's the same price (but 4 capsules).
Neumann KM140 || Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10
70s style - Nakamichi CM300/cp1-2-3 > Nakamichi 500 cassette deck

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

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Offline kindms

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2024, 10:16:37 AM »

The thing that would make this less of a "taper" mic would be the lack of analog output. I would either use it USB directly into my laptop or into the ADAT input on my interface - neither of which I would bring to a typical taper gig. But I have been building my multi track rig and for now at least I have an 18 input interface - 8 of those channels being an ADAT input - so this would be an awesome addition.

I guess if I wanted to be able to use it with the ambisonic plugin on my Mixpre6 I'd have to go with something like the Rode Soundfield mic that's the same price (but 4 capsules).

the site seems to suggest you can plug it right in to an iphone and record using their app.

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Offline EmRR

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2024, 01:20:47 PM »
Max SPL 120dB @1kHz for the USB version, low in comparison to most mics.    Plug that into a phone, that's cool, but it may also overload at loud gigs with some placements.  I'd like to know what max SPL is at 100Hz and 40Hz, since hot subs are a thing. 

136dB on the Dante version, but now it's Dante only and you have to get into Dante Controller with at least a laptop for routing, and need capture hardware with a Dante port/card or capture with laptop using Dante Virtual Soundcard.

Can you do anything less than 8 track capture?  Like sometimes use it as a 4 channel 1st order ambisonic?  A consideration. 

As Richard Lee, one of the original Ambisonic designers said "an ambisonic mic put in a bad sounding place will still sound bad".  To say that it's not a miracle worker, it'll just give you more options for the spot you're in.

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Offline DSatz

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2024, 02:57:50 PM »
120 dB SPL in an acoustic space is literally deafening. _Occasional_ peaks reaching that level in brief, extreme situations may be tolerable with good hearing protection in sound effects recording--but the main reason microphones today go up to 130 - 140 dB SPL is close-miking of brass instruments and literally screaming vocals, e.g. at less than 3" distance from the sound source. Not because a room is being "lit up" at any such levels; it would be a huge public hazard if it were, and the lawsuits would be many.

For a number of years I recorded trained opera singers. The loudest I ever came across was ca. 118 dB SPL from a very powerful soprano doing a special exercise that involved coming in on a high note. Miking distance was less than one meter. If the mike had been closer, then the inverse square law would apply and the microphone (and preamp) would have needed to handle 120+ dB SPL, but I wasn't aiming for a super close-up sound, nor did I want the recording to vary due to the slight motions that every singer makes.

I don't know this particular microphone's circuitry but typically, the maximum SPL specification is obtained by feeding a 1 kHz tone into the amplifier's front end through a capacitance equivalent to that of the capsule, and looking for the 0.5% THD point. It is rarely if ever the absolute limit of the amplifier. I've seen amplifiers that could handle 6 dB more than their rated maximum SPL and still not hard-clip on midrange tones.

--best regards
« Last Edit: September 12, 2024, 03:07:56 PM by DSatz »
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Offline rastasean

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2024, 01:40:59 PM »
Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it’s worth.

Offline wforwumbo

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2024, 05:25:59 PM »
I take some issue with their presentation of spatial reproduction, especially when they have a visualizer that uses a human head. It's one thing to get raw audio, but to then suggest or hint that coincident capsules can accurately produce binaural content is one of my famous sticking points 'round these parts and that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the company's technical know how.
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2024, 07:38:54 PM »
I take some issue with their presentation of spatial reproduction, especially when they have a visualizer that uses a human head. It's one thing to get raw audio, but to then suggest or hint that coincident capsules can accurately produce binaural content is one of my famous sticking points 'round these parts and that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the company's technical know how.

Don't all ambisonic decoders do binaural? Even the inexpensive Zoom all in one device does this. What's to prevent software from being able to reproduce binaural? I know that for it to be actual binaural (vs HRTF) the mics have to be located in ears, and everyone's ear is different, but it seems like software should be able to get close enough.

Neumann KM140 || Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10
70s style - Nakamichi CM300/cp1-2-3 > Nakamichi 500 cassette deck

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
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Offline Chilly Brioschi

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2024, 09:47:24 PM »
120db can be breached in some bars and rock clubs depending on where you are located
A responsible venue will not permit that, but managers aren't always schooled on the implications

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Offline wforwumbo

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #11 on: September 19, 2024, 10:23:07 AM »
I take some issue with their presentation of spatial reproduction, especially when they have a visualizer that uses a human head. It's one thing to get raw audio, but to then suggest or hint that coincident capsules can accurately produce binaural content is one of my famous sticking points 'round these parts and that doesn't give me a lot of confidence in the company's technical know how.

Don't all ambisonic decoders do binaural? Even the inexpensive Zoom all in one device does this. What's to prevent software from being able to reproduce binaural? I know that for it to be actual binaural (vs HRTF) the mics have to be located in ears, and everyone's ear is different, but it seems like software should be able to get close enough.

Not sure about "all" but I'll take issue with any that do, including Zoom. The fact I've not heard of this Voyage Audio company and the fact they added in a binaural reproducer is not surprising if they're just following a market trend, but it also shows they don't understand the core tech underneath it.

Software cannot reproduce a correct binaural sound field from an ambisonic mic. This is because the ambisonic microphone capsules are effectively co-located in space, whereas a binaural hearing system - two ears on either side of the head - are not; scientific literature suggests an average of about 17 cm between the ears (the foundation for ORTF, for what it's worth). Ambisonic microphones rely on spherical harmonics to encode and/or decode directional information, which itself relies on the capsules to be co-located in space. That's not really practically possible, so the caps generally sit on a virtual sphere with some radius. This means that there's phase distortion as a "steering" function is applied to an ambisonic decoding; this happens at a relatively low frequency depending on the radius the capsules sit on, it is a linear phase distortion up to a certain frequency limit but it can rarely be undone in a manner that keeps the frequency response of the system flat.

Binaural filters, generally speaking, are encoded and assume a difference between the ears. They are usually captured (and/or modeled) with two receivers that are physically separated in space. Most of the binaural encoding schemes I see use a head-related transfer function, which can be thought of as a filter which models the system from a speaker in a free acoustic field captured by a binaural dummy head (two mics embedded inside of something that sort of looks like the upper 1/3 of a crash test dummy, with specific acoustical properties to model a real human).

And therein lies the rub. The wave field at the ambisonic microphone simply is not located at the same point in space as two human ears. Not just that, but trying to apply a binaural encoding on top of an ambisonic recording introduces a highly nonlinear phase distortion from the fact that solving for the wave equation, the wave field is different at the two points in space. These phase errors compound and multiply in the frequency domain. This has the practical effect of heavily distorting the sonic image and potentially introducing catastrophic phase cancellation all throughout the hearing range.

One good way of thinking about this problem is: mid-side (which itself can be thought of as a 1st order ambisonic system consisting of the 0th and 3rd harmonics) is NOT the same as AB. You can't mix XY ormid-side to be AB, and vice versa. One captures pure level cues, one captures pure time cues. The standard fare near-coincident patterns we rely on such as ORTF, DIN, NOS, etc all rely on some blend of a level cue and a time cue, which is closer to what a human hearing system does compared to AB or XY. Trying to convert one to the other causes similar errors as what I've mentioned above.

One potential solution to this problem is to make the ambisonic microphone have a similar radius to the human head. But then the upper limit at which the phase response is linear is VERY low - I'd need to double-check my math, but I believe that puts the phase distortion starting at 20 Hz, acgtually - and it's impractically large, even more so than something like a Jecklin disc. So you lose all the benefits of what an ambisonic system might be trying to encode.

The only company that's suggested anything to me that they understand this problem and have a valid solution is Core Sound, where Len suggests bilateral ambisonics - you can view the Core Sound ambisonics thread in this sub forum for Len's and my discussion on the idea. I think it's a great idea, but it requires two ambisonic microphones and an equally large number of preamps/channels on our decks, and in the present I think there are more effective ways to caputre a great sound field than bilateral ambisonics (needless to say, I'm waiting for the tech to catch up...).
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Offline goodcooker

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #12 on: September 19, 2024, 02:50:09 PM »

Most users of this device aren't going to take umbrage with the implementation of these processes. While they may not be 100% error free in a laboratory environment they are certainly robust and accurate enough for users to create binaural stereo for use in sound design, video games, video soundtracks and a multitude of others uses.

That's who these are marketed to - users - not scientists.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these. While it's certainly outside my realm of understanding I like data to help me make wise choices or at least understanding the rules I'm going to break.
Neumann KM140 || Line Audio CM3/OM1 || MBHO KA500 hyper>PFA|| ADK A51 type IV || AKG C522XY
Oade Warm Mod and Presence+ Mod UA5s || Aerco MP2(needs help) || Neve Portico 5012 || Apogee MMP
SD Mixpre6 || Oade Concert Mod DR100mkii

pocket sized - CA11 cards > SP SB10 > Sony PCM A10
70s style - Nakamichi CM300/cp1-2-3 > Nakamichi 500 cassette deck

http://www.archive.org/bookmarks/goodcooker

"Are you the Zman?" - fan at Panic 10-08-10 Kansas City
"I don't know who left this perfectly good inflatable wook doll here, but if I'm blowing her up, I'm keeping her." -  hoppedup

Offline wforwumbo

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Re: Voyage Audio Spatial Mic
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2024, 02:18:43 AM »

Most users of this device aren't going to take umbrage with the implementation of these processes. While they may not be 100% error free in a laboratory environment they are certainly robust and accurate enough for users to create binaural stereo for use in sound design, video games, video soundtracks and a multitude of others uses.

That's who these are marketed to - users - not scientists.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts on these. While it's certainly outside my realm of understanding I like data to help me make wise choices or at least understanding the rules I'm going to break.

It's not that these systems are or are not error free in a laboratory environment exclusive to measurements or scientific research. It's that there's a breaking of a simple law of physics - you cannot physically move the location of a mic from one spot to another without destroying precious time alignment. When you apply a binaural filter to an ambisonically captured sound field, you fundamentally destroy information which is very important to our ability to hear spatial information. It's the same exact problem as applying a spaced Omni filter to an XY or MS recording - you just fundamentally cannot do it without destroying the auditory cues. I have never heard a binaural encoding applied to an ambisonic transform on a coincident recording that did not smear the spatial image and produce an unnatural auditory image which fails to externalize or stabilize.

There are different strokes for different folks. I'm not saying you cannot do these things or that it's wrong to enjoy the results, but I am saying it's impossible to preserve any form of a stable audio image across all valid playback mechanisms when applying a binaural encoder to an ambisonic recording, and there's no way to undo the application of that binauralizer.
North Jersey native, Upstate veteran, proud Texan

2x Schoeps mk2; 2x Schoeps mk21; 2x Schoeps mk4
4x Schoeps cmc5; 4x Schoeps KC5
Nbob KCY; Naiant 48v PFA
Sonosax SX-M2D2
Sound Devices Mixpre-6

 

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