Topic: Zero bit recording

[goodcooker]

Ok back to a minor, yet perhaps related observation about the recording using the current setup-

When tape ran out during to the encore and the Nak deck stopped, did that cut signal to the A10 until you were able to switch the Nak back to rec/pause again? 
 
That's actually what got me thinking about where the limiters are in the signal paths.

Correct. No signal  on the outputs (phones or line outs) or activity on the meters unless recording (or on rec pause) or playing back. The tape ran out right after the end of the last song. I had one moment where after the tape ran out I was trying to decide if I could use the space on the tape 1 side 1 that was unused at the time of first set swap then realized I was overthinking and just let the A10 run for the encore.

Even though I ran the A10 with conservative levels the resulting waveform looked a little wonky. Overly limited and without dynamic range. The same technique of pushing levels against the limiter that made a good tape didn't make for a good waveform at the line output.

I'm fairly happy with the level setting and results. I could have run a little more conservative on levels for the BT set. I think it got a little crunchy in comparison to the BHTM set. I was running 2.5 out of 10.

[goodcooker]

Here's the KM140 source - same stand, very close in configuration ~DIN with a little bit less angle

https://archive.org/details/bt2024-08-06.KM140

[Chanher]

Finally had a chance to do a decent amount of listening and a little A-Bing.

The Neumann > MixPre digital recording certainly has it's merits. There's more detail, if you listen closely you can hear subtle things like the sound bouncing in the arena (hearing the room, or outdoor venue in this case), the crowd etc. Seems more dynamic. Lots of sonic info coming through my studio monitors.

My favorite recording of the evening is Big Head Todd Nakamichi CM300/CP1 > Nakamichi 500. It's cliche to say, but it's smooth and warm and easy to listen to. There's a soft little punch to it, across the whole spectrum.  MIGHT be a bit biased since I love Big Head Todd, but focusing on the sound itself, it's more dynamic than the Blues Traveler analog source (gotta be the limiter that goodcooker talks about). Not as detailed as the digital source, but certainly not dull by any means.

When you go back and forth between the analog and digital sources it's pretty interesting. Yes, there seems to be slightly less fidelity with the analog recordings, but they don't feel lo-fi at all. It reinforces what so many of you have discovered; they're flavors and it's ultimately a matter of preference.

Gutbucket suggests the possibility of imparting this "flavor" by simply transferring our digital sources to cassette, as well as even a cassette adapter! We must devise a comp for this. 

[if_then_else]

You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.

[goodcooker]

You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.

These plug ins are VERY popular nowadays. There's dozens of not hundreds of them on the market. I have dabbled a little with adding them to my master buss when doing post on shows but found that I prefer the Waves L3 Ultramaximizer plug in with the Extreme Analog preset. It's more than just a compressor. It utilizes some kind of frequency dependent expansion as well so acts somewhat like Dolby in that it's like a "compander".

[Gutbucket]

I very much enjoyed listening to the Blues Traveler set recordings last Sunday, and have been meaning to get back here to post some thoughts since.  Was listening with my preferred HD650 headphones, but on someone else's computer so my comparisons were made by way of streaming though the archive WinAmp player to gain EQ capability.  Haven't listed to the Big Head Todd set yet.

I mostly focused on comparing the Nak and KM140 sources, both streaming simultaneously in separate browser windows.  Note for anyone comparing these, those two sources are inverted Left/Right.  Not sure which reflects the actual "sidedness" as experienced at the concert, and it doesn't really matter, but my initial "wha?" upon shifting from one to the other was quickly shifted to an "oh, okay" by flipping the headphones around on my head to keep the left side left each time I switched between sources.  Funny that every once in a while I'd switch between the two and forget to flip the 'phones, and the "wha?" disorientation would immediately return prior to realizing a second later what had happened.

With that established, I EQ'd each to best effect - a good portion of which is baseline correction for the transfer function of HD650's > my ears. In other words, I start with a similar baseline curve for most any recording.  Beyond that, it was interesting get a feel for what further adjustments I felt benefited each and how they differed.. then to play around with how close I could get the two to each other, at least in terms of perceived frequency response. Struggling to recall detailed specifics, but other than what might be expected, I remember EQing in a somewhat different midrange presence bump.  Ended up with both very enjoyable and involving.  Good general metric of success when it gets me to relax into it and want to keep listening. Nice job! 

Interesting that there was a significant difference in the Nak>A10 encore.  I recall it taking more EQing to get that somewhat similar the the other two sources, but it not sounding as good. I don't use an A10 so am not intimately familiar with its "sound", but would expect it to be neutral with makes me wonder about the analog-out signal path through the Nak500.

Looking forward to doing some similar listening with the Big Head Todd set at some point.

Overall, my impression of the Blues Traveler set is similar to Chanher's comments on the Todd set. The Nak source is more compressed, "warm", "rounded" and "cassette-like" and had me recalling good cassette recordings from 30+ years ago. The KM140 source cleaner and more detailed, more top and a deeper extended bottom.  In addition to the length differences due to the tape flip, the Nak source runs considerably faster.  I found myself doing the "quick double pause jab" frequently to keep them in loose alignment.

Those particular sonic differences got me thinking about how both sources feature different positive aspects that are potentially complementary, and how the less dynamic Nak source might serve the same roll as a parallel compressed channel.  That sent me down the a just-for-fun path of working a very rough mix of the two by playing both browser windows simultaneously.  Sync'd using a quick double-jab to the pause button of the Nak source every, dunno ~10-15 seconds or so.  Close enough that after each brief double-jab pause, the Nak source would be a few milliseconds ahead for a few seconds of play before slowly sliding into full sync (interesting to hear the slight delay perceptually morph to a flanger-like phase shift, then that phase shift disappear as the two sources slides into full alignment for a few  seconds, and then slides back out of phase again until achieving just enough perceptual delay that another double-jab would repeat the cycle.  By adjusting the relative level of each source I got a good feel for the positive combination of the two - bottom extension, clarity, dynamics, transients and a more 3d audience/ambience from the KM140s flushed out with a nice compressed fatness and flavor from the Nak tape source. Obviously this was a quite fast and loose thing, complicated by the fact L/R is swapped between the two sources (which was actually less of an issue than I imagined it might be), yet sufficient to get a good feel for how well the two fit together nicely in a quite complementary way. 

Fun stuff. I'd not want to try to actually sync them though!

[Gutbucket]

Gutbucket suggests the possibility of imparting this "flavor" by simply transferring our digital sources to cassette, as well as even a cassette adapter! We must devise a comp for this. 

You could even use a Tape Saturation VST effect plugin instead of an actual tape transfer.

Fun to think about and discuss all of this, along with creative ways to use classic gear to best effect.  If the focus of this thread wasn't all about using the analog gear or tape itself but rather about how best to practically achieve that kind of sound, I'd probably keep everything digital and use a plugin like if_then_else and goodcooker mention.   If doing that, it would be interesting to compare treating the stereo file directly with that kind of effect, verses applying it in parallel in a way analogous to the way I was mixing the tape and digital sources.  Might work really well to compress, EQ and saturate the parallel path while leaving the primary path clean with uncompressed dynamics and full transients.  Essentially the application of parallel compression with additional tape saturation effect added.  If that achieves the desired result, it can be applied relatively easily to any single-source digital recording that might benefit from it.  But the real focus of this thread is analog tape recording, not just for the sound of it but for the fun of running classic gear. 

[goodcooker]

@ gutbucket - the Nak is definitely running fast, not enough to really notice unless you are comparing to something else but definitely in need of getting  fixed when my local vintage electronics guy can fit me in - he's been working on retainer for an audiophile who is paying him salary to get every piece of his massive collection tuned up - he's not taking in any outside projects for over half a year now. I picked up on that when I loaded the two sources in to a Wavelab montage to create a comparison track or two - 30 seconds of one file followed by 30 seconds of the next and so on - and the Nak source would be out of sync by mid song. That's when I realized I must have had the cables on the Mixpre backwards which flipped L/R on the 140s. I was in a hurry to get set up and having to be very side eye cognizant of the crews from the house and both bands (who each had their own full size touring rig in addition to the house light rig) since I was located inside FOH.

Agree with the assessments so far. The cassette source is far from perfect but has it's charm on it's own merits. I think this says a lot about how good Nakamichi gear was/is. The gear used for this was not marketed to professionals at the time. Cassette in general wasn't really considered professional and was marketed for convenience

The Neumann mics > Sound Devices Mixpre clearly has an edge when it comes to clarity and detail which comes as no surprise. A big chunk of the difference has to do with the mics as they are considerably different. The 1975 retail on a CM300 was $99. The KM140 was over $1000. The rest has to do with the 40 year gap in the recorders. The cassette deck was pretty advanced for it's day but that day was 50 years ago.

@ chanher "My favorite recording of the evening is Big Head Todd Nakamichi CM300/CP1 > Nakamichi 500. It's cliche to say, but it's smooth and warm and easy to listen to" - I agree. I set levels for BHTM and left them there for BT who were def louder and continued to push the levels higher as the show progressed. I hit the sweet spot during the first set.

This was a fun project. I will not be hauling the tape deck to shows often although the opportunity to do some onstage mics/soundboard feed mixes may present itself at something low key like a house show. There's a couple of people around town who put on backyard events.

Side note - when my friend who is the "guy Friday" at the venue (stage manager, FOH, crew - he and one helper fly the outdoor line arrays then put them away for every show) came out to meet me and take my gear in before the show he picked up the suitcase and said "Sweet. Samsonite" then headed back in. My GF took a bunch of pics and for real from across the parking lot it looked like a shady 70s drug deal going down.

[Gutbucket]

Ha!  Sounds like you really enjoyed it.  Fun for all of us following along too.  +T and thanks for the cool thread.

[Ozpeter]

Hey Gutbucket - today when ploughing through loads of Stuff to be thrown away, I came across... yup, the M44 silver stickers!  They will now be carefully preserved, I guess by storing them on top of the M44.  Seems logical.

[Gutbucket]